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Joel Schultz

ARGH!!! ATI's doing it again...

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Demo: E2

Driver: 4.13.7189 (15-OCT-2001 release)

Board: ATI Radeon 32MB DDR, no funky features, just plain old monitor out.

DirectX: 8.0a

I just upgraded to the latest ATI Radeon drivers. And demo 2 stopped working, in that the graphics don't work at all, even with /nd1 and /nd2. Symptoms: I get NO texture rendering at all anywhere. No buildings on the ground, no ships in space(though I get ghostly afterimages of the drive) - nothing but the HUD, J/K/L computer screens and the left/right sidebar icons.

I tried monkeying with Z-buffer depths. Setting it to 16 as per FAQ instructions caused graphical problems with the HUD. Tried toggling the various settings on the Direct3D tab. Still nothing. Though I got it to the point where I'd get it not to start at all (hour-glass+arrow cursor, then nothing). I think I need to reboot or something after that occurs.

And worst of all, my downloaded Tweaker 5.1 program crashes. I can't even do a low-level driver tweak!

1st question: should I even care? I mean, I'm talking E2 demo but what matters is the Gold disk. Does the Gold work with the above driver? (It may still require /nd1 or /nd2, but just "working" would satisfy me for now).

2nd question: am I on a wild goose chase? Are ATI's latest drivers really too buttly to hope to use? (Ties into 1st question).

3rd question: has anyone else got this problem with these drivers and figured it out?

I'm still experimenting and running through threads referring to Radeon. But I thought I'd get something started in here in the hopes someone else gets an answer quicker than I do.

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Yep. I just verified that. Even the full game no longer works on these new cards with those drivers. I tried DX8a and DX8.1 Beta. Nada.

There you go. What'd I say about ATI?

I'm not even going to bother with this at all. If you try the previous drivers and they work, please let me know.

[ 10-24-2001: Message edited by: ]

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Yep, I got the same crap on the same card as above.

I did at least get it to run, but the graphics REALLY blow. I did resort to the previous drivers, wme_radeon_4_13_7075.exe and they mostly work. (Still some graphic ickies and such, but the game runs.)

I was REALLY upset before that the drivers sucked, but now I am just mad.

Unfortunately, those who upgrade graphic drivers THEN get the game will blame the game.

SC - I was wondering, not being a PC programmer, why some games work with one set of graphics drivers and another will not? Is it more coding style or preferance, or is it deeper than that. I don't need a long explanation, but kindly ask for a high level one.

Thanks,

Scotty.

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With a name like Scotty, you should already know the answer to such a technical question.

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Hmm... I found the normal drivers for the ATI Rage 128, didn't work. The unsupported Beta drivers, however did work, and I'm playing the BCM Demos, with absolutely no problems.

Upon looking at the ATI pages, they don't appear to have any public Beta drivers for the Radeon, at the moment.

What do I say? [email protected]#$ ATI and get something from another decent company next chance. Downgrade your drivers to some older one that worked a while back, for now. The ATI site still has the 4.13.7075 (March 20) drivers, on the site, under "Alternate Driver". (Scotty's post says this driver works. Hopefully it will, on your sys.)

quote:

I was wondering, not being a PC programmer, why some games work with one set of graphics drivers and another will not? Is it more coding style or preferance, or is it deeper than that

It's the drivers' fault. The game uses Direct X, so that's the norm that 3000ad uses to get the game's graphics to work. It's up to the driver manufacturer to get their drivers to work with the several graphics standards (like Direct X and OpenGL).

[ 10-24-2001: Message edited by: Cmdr Nova ]

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quote:


Originally posted by Scotty:

SC - I was wondering, not being a PC programmer, why some games work with one set of graphics drivers and another will not? Is it more coding style or preferance, or is it deeper than that. I don't need a long explanation, but kindly ask for a high level one.

Thanks,

Scotty.


I don't know but I'd say its driver development incompetence. When a driver claims to support DX, it HAS to support ALL modes supported by the API. More often than not, they don't. So, if one game uses a particular mode, it won't work. ATI obviously spent their time optimizing the OGL drivers for Q3 and clean forgot about DX drivers - even though they CLAIM that these new drivers are specifically developed for WinXP. Go figure.

Frankyly, I don't give a shit. Anyone who knowingly buys an ATI card, deserves to be frustrated with their level of driver incompetent. There is NO plausible reason why ANY gamer in his/her right minds, would buy an ATI card.

Anyway, if you feel so bad about it, go ask ATI

Send them email and tell them how disgusted you are that they still employ INCOMPETENT driver developers which only end up tainting otherwise good hardware.

[ 10-25-2001: Message edited by: Supreme Cmdr ]

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quote:


Originally posted by Cmdr Nova:

What do I say? [email protected]#$ ATI and get something from another decent company next chance. Downgrade your drivers to some older one that worked a while back, for now. The ATI site still has the 4.13.7075 (March 20) drivers, on the site, under "Alternate Driver". (Scotty's post says this driver works. Hopefully it will, on your sys.)

[ 10-24-2001: Message edited by: Cmdr Nova ]


I have tried BCM with the 7189, 7191 and Beta 7199 drivers with NO success. Want to see what it looks like?

Download this file. Shots 0&1 are from the Radeon 8500 (same thing on the 7500). Shots 2&3 are from the GF3.

Here are the problems. And they occur in 16 or 32-Bit, windowed or fullscreen.

  1. Models aren't rendered

  2. Alpha Blending is broken (again)

  3. Z and W buffer (BCM supports both and picks W first) artifacts

  4. Space skybox flickering (even in 16 Bit mode)

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quote:

Originally posted by Supreme Cmdr:

[QB]

I have tried BCM with the 7189, 7191 and Beta 7199 drivers with NO success. Want to see what it looks like?

Maybe if you change all the .EXE references in BCM to say "Quake3.exe" it will work just fine?

heheh

[ 10-25-2001: Message edited by: Gryphon ]

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quote:


Originally posted by Gryphon:

Maybe if you change all the .EXE references in BCM to say "Quake3.exe" it will work just fine?

heheh

[ 10-25-2001: Message edited by: Gryphon ]


BCM does not use OpenGL

Anyway, I have updated the FAQ

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lol!!!

SC, that FAQ update on Radeon is a hoot!!!

I am still laughing!!!

The best part about it, IT'S TRUE!!!

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What Greg said..... LMAO! Really great advice, but too bad most of those Shirley-propaganda-eating fools will blame the game, anyway.

[ 10-25-2001: Message edited by: Cmdr Nova ]

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quote:


Originally posted by Joel Schultz:

Yikes, you know things are bad when the SC's gotta vent it on his soapbox.


And the reason I don't like writing them as often as I'd like, is because I get flooded by emails. At last glance this morning, I had 150+ to reply to!!!

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Another good read SC.

I am sorry, but ATI has it comming to them. I really think they are literally resting on their vast OEM contracts; and when they start dropping like flies, that's when things will change. By that time though, it will already be too late, and then Nvidia will acquire ATI Radeon Technology.

Don't get me wrong, I am currently using an ATI card in my new machine that my 3dfx replaced in the old machine. And yes, the games I play on the new machine have graphical glitches that are not present with the V3.

When 3dfx went under, I looked to ATI to step upto the plate, after all I didn't want to be paying $600 dollars for a vidcard. Then BCM beta testing moved strictly to DX8, and that was when the Radeon testers started to shin...err I mean fade.

I am very much looking forward to putting a Geforce3 in my new machine; I order it December 26.

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Guest

I have read these threads and the soapbox, but have a small question SC.

You don't mention the Quadro 2 Pro chip based Nvidia cards. I was under the impression that these were tweaked standard chips, but cant get it to work with demo 2. I don't have any problems with my other games, inc. DX8 only MaxPayne.

I have just finished updating card BIOS, MB drivers, card drivers and DX8a. Have checked FAQ and tried all pertinent tweaks and BIOS changes but still no joy.

Has anyone got this type of card working?

This was origonally out of a Dell workstation, but also sold by Elsa as the GLoria3, I am using Nvidia XP drivers.

I would really like to try as I have pre-ordered the game ;-)

Thanks

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quote:


then Nvidia will acquire ATI Radeon Technology

AMEN! I think they're the only hope of ever getting that power unleashed now. ATI ought to license it to them or something like that. And maybe then we'll see what a real Radeon can do, and maybe nVidia will get their 2D stuff together. 2D's always been their weakness, but bottom line is that it WORKS, regardless that it isn't as pretty and strong as some of their competitors.

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quote:


Originally posted by Tim:

I have read these threads and the soapbox, but have a small question SC.

You don't mention the Quadro 2 Pro chip based Nvidia cards. I was under the impression that these were tweaked standard chips, but cant get it to work with demo 2. I don't have any problems with my other games, inc. DX8 only MaxPayne.

I have just finished updating card BIOS, MB drivers, card drivers and DX8a. Have checked FAQ and tried all pertinent tweaks and BIOS changes but still no joy.

Has anyone got this type of card working?

This was origonally out of a Dell workstation, but also sold by Elsa as the GLoria3, I am using Nvidia XP drivers.

I would really like to try as I have pre-ordered the game ;-)

Thanks


I don't have that card. But the kernel used in the E2 demo is too old, so I won't worry about it if I were you. Wait until you get the game and we'll sort it out. I don't have any of those cards here.

I've already hacked in a fix for Radeon cards so that the game works on them out of the box. I heard back from ATI and apparently there is a bug in the TnL driver, not to mention the bugs I discovered in their DirectX 8 support which provided me with a clue as to what hack I had to come up with. Lets see how long it takes them to fix these driver problems.

I was going to do another demo, but I'm worn out and have abandoned it. Its too much hassle sorting out the files etc. Besides the game is shipping next week and I'd rather spend my time on multiplayer.

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quote:


I've already hacked in a fix for Radeon cards so that the game works on them out of the box.

Where are my manners?! Thank you in advance for doing that on behalf of all ATI BCM gamers. Who hopefully will learn their lesson and won't be ATI gamers for too much longer, budgets willing of course.

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Guest

Thanks Derek, will wait and see. I have every confidence in you, especially as I have just read the entire thread over at Rage3d, noting especially the exact problems with the ATI drivers that you are fixing for them.

Best of British and good luck!

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Never did like ATI anyway... Those canadians (no offense), could never write drivers in the first place... They have always had some of the best hardware, but always compatibility issues with other hardware of software. Always had best luck with 3DFX (back in the day), and NVidia...

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I'm at page 4 of the rage3d forum thread.. got to go to bed... I'll continue reading later today ad maybe I'll reply.

The problem with ati is clearly about not obeying to DX standards. It's like having a car with the brake and the accelerator pedals being switched from positions : it still works but you are likely to crash unless you adapt yourself to the car.

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Guest Remo Williams

I use and ATI Rage Pro and can't agree more about the crappy drivers they provide. Although the drivers I've been using run BCM just fine I'm sure I'm missing out on the splender of the graphics. I hope to upgrade my whole system soon and I will be getting a nvidia v-card this time around.

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