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Back to prices. Should the new guy be charged 80,000 creds for a run when he can't think of anything else but buying stock with his starting capital?

Should the Merc be helpful in explaining what to buy and what to sell off so that the run could be profitable for both?

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quote:

Charles Lindsey posted on 10-12-2001

Should the Merc be helpful in explaining what to buy and what to sell off so that the run could be profitable for both

Well, it really depends on the player, right? If the player is experienced and wants to be a jackass then there's nothing we can do about it. Unless they are professed members of Intercorp no one can control an indie even then as members there are no strict guideline hence the thread was brought up.

But for those members that want to follow a pricing guideline, we'll need to at least establish a pricing formula.

Before we can do that, some questions need to be answered.

The first question that comes to my mind is how are indies gonna survive if there are no contracts, can a merc purchase some mining bots and start mining some resources to sell, or is it strictly by profession only, meaning only miners can mine.

The second question that comes to mind how's the initial pricing of each starbase gonna be set up? Will there be a standard prices at the initial stage and after that the prices will depend on demand and supply?

Maybe the SC can set a system like a weekly or daily CPI or the stock market report that allows trader to analyse the previous days trading prices? I don't know, it could be really tough especially with so many bases available.

That begs the next question, in MP & GCO will the prices be maintained as it was the previous night? Meaning if I come online today and the price of Radine is X amount at Velari Starbase, assuming no one trades at Velari for the night, will the price be the same tommorrow?

That's just some of my questions

[ 10-12-2001: Message edited by: Cmdr Jeffery Eu ]

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quote:

Originally posted by Charles Lindsey:

Back to prices. Should the new guy be charged 80,000 creds for a run when he can't think of anything else but buying stock with his starting capital?


That's a hard one. But my opinion:

1. The guy can do Galcom - Genesis to make his first cash. Unprotected, so that would not cost him anything. Once he as his first few million or so, he would be able to affort an escort (I figured about 5 Mcreds suffices to pay for a merc and still make some profit).

2. Intercorp would be willing to invest in the guy by paying a merc to escort him. That would cost a bit, but later on in the game the player would more than compensate for that (he's paying 4% for each business deal)

3. More experienced members are required to help new guys (teach them the basics). The new guy could 'hitch' a ride by joining a more experienced trader that has paid for an escort. The new guy could pay a small proportion for the protection (like 10 Kcreds or so).

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quote:

Well, it really depends on the player, right? If the player is experienced and wants to be a jackass then there's nothing we can do about it.

Sure there is, tattle. A bad reputation will spread. That part will be self policing I think.

"The first question"

If you got it you can use it. Might not be the most glamorous or adventurous way to make money but it will be steady.

"The second question"

Each game will start at the base level for each station and fluctuate over time. At least until Derek implements Station Commander career and that dude goes mucking with the prices.

quote:

Maybe the SC can set a system like a weekly or daily CPI or the stock market report that allows trader to analyse the previous days trading prices?

Seriously doubt it.

quote:

I don't know, it could be really tough especially with so many bases available.

This is why.

quote:

assuming no one trades at Velari for the night, will the price be the same tommorrow?

No, on a persistent sever the npc's play a role as well.

Riga:

#1 Yeah there is the G-G run.

#2 Interesting

#3 Require? Doubt that would work. Combine 2 & 3 and make an apprentice program? Theres a thought.

Hitch a ride? several traders could pool resources and pay one merc. That's interesting.

Just my opinions. Can't wait to get in there and see if any of this will even work.

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quote:

Originally posted by Charles Lindsey:

#2 Interesting

#3 Require? Doubt that would work. Combine 2 & 3 and make an apprentice program? Theres a thought.


I came up with exactly that _after_ I replied to your post.

quote:

Hitch a ride? several traders could pool resources and pay one merc. That's interesting.


They could. Another reason to be a member

quote:

Just my opinions. Can't wait to get in there and see if any of this will even work.

That makes two of us

[ 10-13-2001: Message edited by: Riga ]

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quote:

Riga posted on 10-13-2001

2. Intercorp would be willing to invest in the guy by paying a merc to escort him. That would cost a bit, but later on in the game the player would more than compensate for that (he's paying 4% for each business deal)

Interesting idea, in fact a very good idea which is incentive for people to join up with Intercorp, but where will Intercorp get there initial funds? as we're all newbies in BCM: MP and GCO. IOU's anyone

quote:

Riga posted on 10-13-2001

3. More experienced members are required to help new guys (teach them the basics). The new guy could 'hitch' a ride by joining a more experienced trader that has paid for an escort. The new guy could pay a small proportion for the protection (like 10 Kcreds or so).

quote:

Charles Lindsey posted on 10-13-2001

#3 Require? Doubt that would work. Combine 2 & 3 and make an apprentice program? Theres a thought.

I agredd with Charles, not so much required but more on a voluntary basis hence the reason for the HR Division of Intercorp, any commander that's newbie friendly can give a helping hand, anyone that can't be bothered can just go on with their lives.

P.S. I'll be drawing up the Charter of the HR Division soon.

Organising convoys is a very good idea, the commanders getting together a convoy will have to decide on the ratios. Maybe based upon merchandise owned but definitely not based upon experienced.

Question, let's say Trader A purchases goods that have a high demand but expensive, which means less goods for more moola while Trader B purchases a general selection of goods to sell. But in this case Trader B is more experienced that Trader A knowing that selling more of just one good will drive the demand down. Who has to pay more for their shares for the convoy?

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quote:

... but where will Intercorp get there initial funds? as we're all newbies in BCM: MP and GCO. IOU's anyone

Simple, don't do it yet. Investing in 3rd parties is not wise if you're just starting your business. Same as the organisation thread, Jef. Ya got to keep your business afloat pal. Too risky.

And Perhaps there can be a (one) Time Limited IOSC. (Intercorp owes SC)

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Ok, my bit on the economics. I don't want to go into the convoy stuff here, that would make it too complex. It's just a proposal, so let me know what you think.

Personal Contract Fee (PCF)

Indies do not get a salary, but a starting capital. However, Intercorp members get to calculate a part of their contract’s profits as a Personal Contract Fee (PCF). The PCF is per contract (not every 12 or 24 hours) and is paid for ‘personal labor’. This fee increases as their experience increases. Each division defines 5 experience levels and describes directives of how to get to the next experience level. It starts at 50.000 for new members (level 1) and increases by a multiple of 2 for each subsequent level.

  • * Level 1 = 50.000

* Level 2 = 100.000

* Level 3 = 200.000

* Level 4 = 400.000

* Level 5 = 800.000

Contract Value (CV)

The Contract Value (VC) determines how much money is involved in the contract. This varies per caste.

Trader: VC equals the Profit (Selling Price – Buying Price).

Merc:

  • * Escorting: VC of escorted party.

* Other: VC determined beforehand by both parties.

Other castes: VC determined by both parties beforehand.

Fee Of Service (FOS)

The Fee Of Service is the amount of money a member gets for services offered and is calculated using the following formula.

VC * (distance * danger)% + PCF

The percentage is calculated over the VC. If this involves a trader or commercial then the profit is taken, otherwise the value of the contract’s subject (e.g. the value of the vessel that is escorted, the ‘value’ of the person that is to be assassinated, etc).

Distance:

1 = local patrol zone

2 = to next patrolzone (includes crossing a quadrant border!)

3 = within quadrant (more than 1 jump)

4 = to other quadrant (at least 3 jumps, otherwise distance = 3)

Danger:

Level 1 – 4, 1 = cakewalk, 4 = deadly. Both parties have to agree on the danger level beforehand during negotiations. Surely GalCom – Genesis would be 1, Sol – Gammula would be 4 and assassinating a Colonist would be 1, Karl Reines would be 4.

For example, a merc (experience level = 3) escorting someone from GalCom to Velari:

(3 * 2)% + 200.000

Lets assume that the contract value = 7.000.000

(6% * 7.000.000) + 200.000 = 620.000

Fees

  • * 4% of the FOS will be paid to the respective division.

* 25% of that 4% will be paid to Intercorp

* 3% will be paid in docking fees if an Orion, Wraith or Prime station is used. If a contract implies a return trip starting at one of these stations and includes a return trip then the docking fee is per contract and thus only paid once.

Note that negotiations with these fleets still have to be carried out and as such this docking fee is not required yet.

[ 10-14-2001: Message edited by: Riga ]

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quote:

Originally posted by Rico Jansen:

Simple, don't do it yet. Investing in 3rd parties is not wise if you're just starting your business. Same as the organisation thread, Jef. Ya got to keep your business afloat pal. Too risky.


You're right, but I didn't think of carring the plan out immediately. I merely see it as a possibility that is feasable in the future, but feasible nonetheless. Anyway, it was just a (first) reaction on Charles post.

quote:

And Perhaps there can be a (one) Time Limited IOSC. (Intercorp owes SC)


No need, he created the station commanders carrier

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quote:

Originally posted by Rico Jansen:

Yeah, but that's only if you guys are lucky enough to get one.

So true... And if not then I probably need to spend two solid days doing the Galcom - Genesis run so that I have capital to invest in Intercorp (that is if I get access to the fleet server)

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Starting tomorrow I will start to update the intercorp website with the proposal posted earlier (10-14-2001 17:38) in this thread.

This does not mean that it is definite, it still is subject to change.

[ 10-15-2001: Message edited by: Riga ]

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quote:

Posted by Rico Jansen:

Nobody said indie life was easy.

Very true. But that's why they're getting fleet support from you, me, and others. And the next generation of Indies will have it easier, thanks to all our hard work. Wait until GCO! Then you'll see the indies take over. But I'll be there to keep them under control..... *evil grin*

[ 10-17-2001: Message edited by: Cmdr Nova ]

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  • 2 weeks later...

Well, it seems that the discussion has died down, so I'm bringing it up again.

Come on people, what are your views on the economics for the UCVs?

There are couple of other points I would likw to thrash out:-

1) In the case of passive castes like explorers, diplomats, scientists and so forth how would you expect the pricing to be like?

I would to suggest that the contract price should be based upon

a) experience of the employee

B) difficulty of the mission

c) objectives

For example, if a very experienced Diplomat is hired to gain an alliance between Sol and LV-103, how are going to put a price on that mission?

In the reverse, if a brand new Diplomat is hired to do the same how are you gonna price it?

Or If the medium experiences Diplomat is hired to just go into Credian Sector just to negotitate a exchange of prisoner of war, how are you gonna price it?

2) Should long term customers be eligible for discounts? What's the maximum allowable discount to stop price undercutting? The next question would be do we even care?

3) This question has nothing to do with economics, if a peaceful trader suddenly gets caught in a battle, who can he or she get compensation from, if he or she suffers damages. Will there be even a system in place for pursuit of compensation, or we don't care?

4) If a Galcom member breaks the rules (if there are rules, and if we know what the rules are) who should we complain to? Can we even complain or should us indies just suck up our gut and go on?

Thats it for now. I hope these questions make sense. Please remember that I'm gearing myself to GCO and not necessarily BCM

[ 10-26-2001: Message edited by: Cmdr Jeffery Eu ]

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quote:

Originally posted by Cmdr Jeffery Eu:

1) In the case of passive castes like explorers, diplomats, scientists and so forth how would you expect the pricing to be like?

I would to suggest that the contract price should be based upon

a) experience of the employee

B)
difficulty of the mission

c) objectives

For example, if a very experienced Diplomat is hired to gain an alliance between Sol and LV-103, how are going to put a price on that mission?

In the reverse, if a brand new Diplomat is hired to do the same how are you gonna price it?

Or If the medium experiences Diplomat is hired to just go into Credian Sector just to negotitate a exchange of prisoner of war, how are you gonna price it?

I would say that pricing would mainly be based on the number of succesful missions for Intercorp. A more experienced diplomat would be paid more than the brand new one due to his reputation.

Also if employers could pay the same price for the more experienced ones, as theyed have to pay for the ones with less experience, then the new recruits would never get a contract.

A question, how is payment handled as a result of mission failure? I can see contracts for pasive castes like traders/explorers having a percentage of the money being paid up front and the rest on completion of the mission, as I cant imagine employers paying the whole fee before they have any results. How would this be handled with a diplomat type.

quote:

2) Should long term customers be eligible for discounts? What's the maximum allowable discount to stop price undercutting? The next question would be do we even care?

I guess since the nature of Intercorp is being able to come and go as you please, we would have to worry about undercutting, we dont want the image of forced membership.

On the other hand I can hear all those $$$ pouring in as we monopolise the markets.

quote:

3) This question has nothing to do with economics, if a peaceful trader suddenly gets caught in a battle, who can he or she get compensation from, if he or she suffers damages. Will there be even a system in place for pursuit of compensation, or we don't care?

Compensation could be a good way to attract new members, but.....isnt those kinds of occurences just part of indie life?

quote:

4) If a Galcom member breaks the rules (if there are rules, and if we know what the rules are) who should we complain to? Can we even complain or should us indies just suck up our gut and go on?

We should be able to compalin to Galcom, if we dont already, we should have someone to liase with them.

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quote:

Originally posted by Cmdr Jeffery Eu:

1) In the case of passive castes like explorers, diplomats, scientists and so forth how would you expect the pricing to be like?

It seems to me it will become a natural supply and demand thing. The Diplomatic mission 'Creator' will set out what is required and how much they will pay for successful completion. Diplomats wanting to undertake the mission will then submit their interest in executing said mission along with their Diplomatic resume. The Creator will then choose who he (or she) is best suited to execute the mission.

The creator would get what he (or she)pay's for. For example, if the posted mission is relatively easy the fee would reflect this (i.e. is low). Then, I would imagine, the more experienced (and no doubt more wealthy) Diplomats will not be so interested. Conversely a more difficult mission would necessitate a higher fee to gain interest of the more experienced Diplomats.

Of course this will only work if the correct economies of scale are in place and there are plenty of diplomatic missions to go around. All diplomats are going to want to pay the rent. So there may need to be some structure for assigning mssions - a roster perhaps?

quote:

2) Should long term customers be eligible for discounts? What's the maximum allowable discount to stop price undercutting? The next question would be do we even care?

Customers could try and negotiate discounts based on their buying history. However the onus should be on them to instigate this. I think Intercorp should always be ready/flexible to do a deal provided everything is in keeping with stated rules and regs and there is a profit to be made, but lets not give money away!

quote:

3) This question has nothing to do with economics, if a peaceful trader suddenly gets caught in a battle, who can he or she get compensation from, if he or she suffers damages. Will there be even a system in place for pursuit of compensation, or we don't care?

In theory I don't see why Intercorp's resources can't be used to offer insurance cover through the Commercial Division for traders vessels and cargo. I need to give the details on this more thought with respect to premium calculations, affordability etc, but this could be one of the many services offered by the Commercial Division. (I've got some more ideas on different services the division can offer - more on this later...)

quote:

4) If a Galcom member breaks the rules (if there are rules, and if we know what the rules are) who should we complain to? Can we even complain or should us indies just suck up our gut and go on?

err .. a question for the newly formed Police division maybe?

Well, those are my thoughts off the top of my head, any comments?

[ 10-26-2001: Message edited by: Guybert ]

[ 10-26-2001: Message edited by: Guybert ]

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Aaahhh, finally back from hibernation

I've been updating the intercorp site. Added a 'Payment' page.

Payment contains the proposal for payment I posted earlier.

Directors: Please have a look at it and either comment on it or approve it

Most of the questions of Guybert and TRD are covered in the 'Payments' page. Please read them and comment on them. Any questions? post them here

If all directors approve, and nobody on the forum has a problem with it, than that's what we, for the time being, will adhere to.

(SC, you're opinion on the subject would be very much appreciated...)

Any adjustments or additions are welcome, I'll be glad to change the text. It's only a working version (proposition).

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quote:

Originally posted by TRD:

I would say that pricing would mainly be based on the number of succesful missions for Intercorp. A more experienced diplomat would be paid more than the brand new one due to his reputation

Also if employers could pay the same price for the more experienced ones, as theyed have to pay for the ones with less experience, then the new recruits would never get a contract


Correct. It's all in this page.

Some of that text deals with the experience level of diplomats. Well, you being the director of that division, define the ranks (and thereby the experience level) of a diplomats.

quote:

A question, how is payment handled as a result of mission failure? I can see contracts for pasive castes like traders/explorers having a percentage of the money being paid up front and the rest on completion of the mission, as I cant imagine employers paying the whole fee before they have any results. How would this be handled with a diplomat type

I already got a similar question from our secretive director . In my opinion that's negotiable beforehand. You could ask for a part of the fee beforehand (say 30%) and keep that even if the mission fails. If you succeed the remaining 70% is paid, otherwise you stick with the 30% and a (slightly more) bad reputation

quote:

I guess since the nature of Intercorp is being able to come and go as you please, we would have to worry about undercutting, we dont want the image of forced membership.

About discounts: I'm not in favor of discount in excess of 5% otherwise undercutting will become a serious problem.

However you can give discount if the receiving party gives you discounts as well.

For example, I give you 10% discount on some goods, and you give me a discount of 10% on a contract to negotiate with a fleet for docking rights.

I would advice to allow this system only between intercorp members though.

quote:

We should be able to compalin to Galcom, if we dont already, we should have someone to liase with them

No use. You can ask them to aid/compensate you after a mishap, but there is no authority that will deal in these matters.

BTW: The diplomat division still has no name, charter or ranking (experience) system. Can you provide these so that I can include them on the website?

Look at either Jeffery's or mine if you need an example.

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quote:

Originally posted by Guybert:

It seems to me it will become a natural supply and demand thing. The Diplomatic mission 'Creator' will set out what is required and how much they will pay for successful completion. Diplomats wanting to undertake the mission will then submit their interest in executing said mission along with their Diplomatic resume. The Creator will then choose who he (or she) is best suited to execute the mission


Correct, but having intercorp intoduces a little twist in this idea since this exactly is one of the reasons why intercorp exists. It brings together the people that want a service (what you call creator) and the people that provide these services.

You just go to an intercorp office, ask for a service and you get a list of people capable of doing it. Then you choose who you want to do business with, and that's it.

quote:

The creator would get what he (or she)pay's for. For example, if the posted mission is relatively easy the fee would reflect this (i.e. is low). Then, I would imagine, the more experienced (and no doubt more wealthy) Diplomats will not be so interested. Conversely a more difficult mission would necessitate a higher fee to gain interest of the more experienced Diplomats

See the payment page on the intercorp website. It deals with these issues.

quote:

Of course this will only work if the correct economies of scale are in place and there are plenty of diplomatic missions to go around. All diplomats are going to want to pay the rent. So there may need to be some structure for assigning mssions - a roster perhaps?

You're absolutely right about this. Currently only one diplomat is registered, but you never know what the future brings. Currently there are quite a few mercs around.

About the roster? Dunno, don't think that it will really work due to the RL constraints of the members. Better to see who is available at the time you need them and just choose from them. You cannot force people to go online according to a roster (their Indies for a reason )

quote:

Customers could try and negotiate discounts based on their buying history. However the onus should be on them to instigate this. I think Intercorp should always be ready/flexible to do a deal provided everything is in keeping with stated rules and regs and there is a profit to be made, but lets not give money away

That's an excellent idea. Nothing to do with experience or danger level of a mission.

Anyway, in the negotiation phase you can take this into account so the flexibility is kind of 'built in'.

quote:

In theory I don't see why Intercorp's resources can't be used to offer insurance cover through the Commercial Division for traders vessels and cargo. I need to give the details on this more thought with respect to premium calculations, affordability etc, but this could be one of the many services offered by the Commercial Division. (I've got some more ideas on different services the division can offer - more on this later...)

Would be a good idea. Probably not in the beginning, since it would require considerable resources IMHO. Question: Would this be an Intercorp or a Commercial Division thing?

On another note:

I think your signature should be:

----

Commander Guybert (Terran/Commercial)

UCV Gnobb

Director - Intercorp Unlimited, ... Inc.

"optional quote"

----

where ... would be the name of the commercial division. All other directors do not put the branch (Services) into their sig.

About the Commercial division:

Would be nice if you think of a name, create a charter and a ranking (experience) system so that they can be added to the intercorp website.

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Riga,

Thanks for your comments. Jeffery has sent me the IU profile document and I'm currently working on the charter and ranking system, hopefully have a draft ready in a day or two.

I will change my sig as recommended, I've left Commercial Div in it till a name is approved. Off the top of my head, what about -

Money Inc?

Got a catchy ring to it, no?

Let me know. Cheers.

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quote:

Originally posted by Riga:

BTW: The diplomat division still has no name, charter or ranking (experience) system. Can you provide these so that I can include them on the website?

Look at either Jeffery's or mine if you need an example.

Yeah, ive just sent them to Jeffery.

Another question. Are there plans to write an Intercorp wide 'terms of service' that talks about contracts. Things like what happens if either the employer or employee does not live up to their side of a contract, or is that down to the individual divisions.

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