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Fighter v. BC (or B.A.C)


Gallion
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Starting this thread to move the Fighter v. BC (B.A.C) debate from Join Fighter Command thread. No need to pollute recruitment efforts with the pea-shooter v. B.A.C. debate. Sorry about that Whisper.

As I stated before, I will take any and all pea-shooter drivers on once BCM is released. There will be no train-up period for any involved. Just date and time of this death match.

Come one, come all, I will desconstruct ye all with my B.A.C.

Idle boast - nope. Just a fact of life.

I am aware of the differences between NPC AI and Human control fighters, etc.

So load up ye pea-shooters with Vagrants and want-not all ye pea-shooter drivers and practice ye techniques - ye all need it biggrin.gif

TTFN

------------------

Commander Gallion

GCV Graf Spee

*1st Squadron, *Corsair Wing

Stationed, *Starbase Cerberus

"Run Silent, Run Deep"

ICQ# 29486270, EST (GMT-5)

=Wraith Fleet=

Second in Command, Wraith Fleet

Bushi of the Dragon Council

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A fact of life...

Yea, sure. Whatever. smile.gif

Who here watchs the Discovery Channel? Ever seen any of those shows where a bunch of small, vicious hyenas take down a big ol' water buffalo? Your going to be that water buffalo, Gallion. biggrin.gif

While a buffalo can dish out a powerful hind kick, take loads a damage, and is just plain big, it's out numbered. The hyenas swarm on the poor beast, doing small bites here and there, and the buffalo can't make up its mind which hyena to attack, because as soon as one stops another starts. And even if that buffalo does take out a hyena or two, there's still more of them than the buffalo.

And, Gallion, how do you intend on fighting us? PTA? A PTA's tracking speed is so slow and does so little damage for a reasonable recharge rate, fighters will have any easy time doging thier puny little blasts. Heck, a flight has 4 fighters, and a BC's PTA only has three turrets. So you won't even have a lock on all of them! Perhpas you'll try to use the main laser for the last one, eh? Can't, you'll never hit it. Your average fighter can outmaneuver even a decoupled laser.

Missiles? Don't make me laugh! Modern jamming devices make missiles a moot point for anything that doesn't stand still. And even in the off chance that a missiles makes a lock, the typical fighter can run circles around a homing missile.

So if you can't shoot us, Gallion, your only hope would be to rely on your big fancy armor and your big fancy shields. Well, 4 Vagrants up your tailpipe will fix that in a hurry!

I hope I'm not scaring you away, Gallion. We can use all the practice we can get! biggrin.gif Just make sure you have a shuttle ready in case anything "unfortunate" should happen! rolleyes.gif

No training? Well, okay. (PILOTS! GO PLAY EXTREME CARNAGE!) I can't wait untill we got some regular practice sessions going on, though. Ohh, you guys are gonna love some of the stuff I'm cooking up! But, Gallion, a good amount of stratagy and teamwork is part of being a pilot. As an individual or group of individulas, fighters are not even a threat, I admit that. Saying we can't train beforehand is like saying you can't read the manual you battle us. It isn't even a comparison.

Come to think of it, why do you insist that we not practice? You can practice solo arse-whipping any ol' day in your Battlecrusier, but we'll be using ships we haven't even flown yet! Do you not confidence in your B.A.C., so you insist a veteran commander go up against a bunch of green pilots?

And perhaps I am jumpimg the gun a bit, since none of us has experience playing as a group in a Battlecruiser fighter. But I am confident that a properly trained flight could take out any capital ship, regardless of size and armament.

So bring it on, Boss...*gasp*!I just realized that I've picked a fight with the guy who signs my paycheck! redface.gif Ho, wait! I got his boss flying with me! He, he!

In that case, bring it on, Gallion! You won't just be fighting me, you won't just be fighting the majority of active Wraith people, you'll be fighting TAC! Wee! This is going to be great! smile.gif

------------------

Commander David "Whisper" Liev

*Fighter Commander

Sationed, Wraith HQ

"The underestimated weapon will deal overestimated havoc."

=Wraith Fleet=

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hehehe...gotta luv this smack smile.gif

As to training - I am sure that once BCM is released that ye'll will have gotten together to fine tune the pea-shooter tatics and what not. So I will claify my previous post:

Date/time will coordinated and then the fun will begin. This should be within a reasonable amount of time (TBD) after BCM release. Which should give all ample opportunity to learn the game and strategem eek.gif

As to the Hyena v. Water Buffalo analogy - keep thinking that way and deconstruction will be quick tongue.gif

I disagree with your PTA assessment Whisper. I have my own bag of tricks up me sleeve.

And yes - I be looking forward to deconstructing our esteemed FC too.

This excerise will also be a Fleet Training excercise - annotate your unit training calendars accordingly people.

TTFN

------------------

Commander Gallion

GCV Graf Spee

*1st Squadron, *Corsair Wing

Stationed, *Starbase Cerberus

"Run Silent, Run Deep"

ICQ# 29486270, EST (GMT-5)

=Wraith Fleet=

Second in Command, Wraith Fleet

Bushi of the Dragon Council

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I have my own bag of tricks too Gallion. Don't forget we know what a crusier is and is not capable of, because we are commanders ourselves. Remember that alot of the commanders have other programs as well(like USNF or USAF) which are modern day flight simulators. Imagine a commander who uses modern day tactics in the game as well as their own. In short, kiss your BAC goodbye as it becomes space-dust. The manual itself states that sheilds can be disabled with a few well placed shots. But wars are not won by just fighters or BAC's. It is a combination of the two.

------------------

Commander J.Smith

GCV-ROSETTA

*3rd squadron, Marauder Wing

Stationed, Starbase Fenrir

ICQ#67121847 EST

"choose your allies wisely, for they may turn against you."

=WRAITH FLEET=

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yadda, yadda, yadda - all smack with nothin' to back it up with ... been there and done that, made the t-shirt whilst ye was still in diapers Mr. Smith.

Bring on ye pea-shooters. I will show you what a pig B.A.C. can do biggrin.gif

I am really looking forward to this deconstruction process, salivating in the process I might add tongue.gif

TTFN

[This message has been edited by Gallion (edited 06-17-2000).]

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Myself, I prefer the Dreadnought over the mosquito any day. Pesky mosquitos can eventually wear you down and make you terribly ill but if you kill that sucker early.....well he just dies too easily. Mind you a swarm of them will eventually get in a few good bites and the damage will have been done but soooooo many of them will have died just to get that results. Make up your own minds gentlemen. How many and which of you are going to survive that attack just to get that B.A.C.? Heck, I might even come along side just to watch the fun! wink.gif

------------------

Rattler, Insurgent One

Commander-In-Chief,

Insurgency

Official Tester,Battlecruiser Series

[email protected]

ICQ 12894104

"Still Kickin' after all these years!"

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Guest Damasceus Klark

Howdy hi!

Hey Rattler: I thought that these places were reserved for Wraith Fleet personel (unless you are, which then I am completely mistaken). I do see that you have a good reason for posting, though. I like your analogy, but it is a bit flawed. You see, those mosquitos may die a valient death in trying to fulfill the meaning of life (ask me sometime), but they may still cause the death of the human. Just one of those mosquitos may have a nice little creature called : Malaria! And, like the veritable bug zapper of life, ZAAAAAAP!!! You're now a crispy, crunchy dead guy due to the inadvertant efforts of a single mosquito!

Now, I like these rantings! Very pleasant to see that Fighter Command has a few loyal supporters (and our boss is fighting with us! He haw!).

I'd suggest that instead of ranting and demoarlizing, we all (including Gallion) get in some good ol' practice in. For us fighters, I suggest that on Battlecruiser 3000 AD, you get the latest version and that nice add-on that lets you get the SC on your ship and you get fleet control. With that, I'd try going to your home station and get when there, launch a fighter (or all of the fighters). Then kindly ask the station to let you have three fighters and then tell them to follow your other fighter. If there are some enema...I mean enemies around (alot alike) go and try out your own little flight (if this works!).

You can do the same thing with the B.A.C. (or BC, if that's all you can use). Just ask out four fighters and tell um to attack you (if it be possible).

Have fun out there!

------------------

Damasceus "Shiva" Klark

Pilot, Wraith Fighter Command

Wraith Fleet HQ

"Ye gods man, are you insane?!?"

=Wraith Fleet=

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Anyone can post her Shiva, I believe that "reserved for Wraith" part means that the topics and discussions are limited to all things Wraith.

"I suggest that on Battlecruiser 3000 AD, you get the latest version and that nice add-on that lets you get the SC on your ship and you get fleet control. With that, I'd try going to your home station and get when there, launch a fighter (or all of the fighters). Then kindly ask the station to let you have three fighters and then tell them to follow your other fighter. If there are some enema...I mean enemies around (alot alike) go and try out your own little flight (if this works!)."

You can do this if you have Fleet C&C.

I've had my BC being escorted by HORDES of Galcom fighters I "borrowed"... you should see how they blow up an enemy carrier! TacOps becomes a swarm of contacts and missile trails... then the typical jump for survival of the enemy BC.. and Zip zip zip zip the jumps of the hordes after it.. the finishing blow.. aahhhh.. a spectacle!

And these are AI fighters! A human piloted fighter is the same as 10 or more AI fighters.. while a human piloted BC is not much better than an AI BC. The only thing a human piloted BC can do is use the thrusters and ECM better, but that's about it. The real firepower, the PTA is AI controlled biggrin.gif.

So what I think is that Gallion will end up getting us pea-shooters into a running fight so his PTA can be more effective. True, some fighters will be destroyed, as PTA in BC:M will be better, but Gallion is still Toast.

I would suggest 2 matches, both for this ego-deciding fight and for training-tactic-testing purposes:

1) Gallion's BC vs. Peashooters

2) Gallion's BC + 4 human fighters acting as escorts vs. peashooters.

Rattler: Bring along your polaroid buddy, you shall see Gallion fly apart on the first wave wink.gif.

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quote:

1) Gallion's BC vs. Peashooters

This is all I will need biggrin.gif

The wait begins. Practice pea-shooter drivers, ya'll will need it.

TTFN

[This message has been edited by Gallion (edited 06-18-2000).]

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Good idea, Tac. I had completly forgotten about escort duty missions, which will probably the most common. I'll be sure to include that in my already full training program. smile.gif

And, Gallion, just a little something to think about: if B.A.C. are so obviously superior to a collection of fighters, why do fighters even exsist? Eh? wink.gif

------------------

Commander David "Whisper" Liev

*Fighter Commander

Sationed, Wraith HQ

"The underestimated weapon will deal overestimated havoc."

=Wraith Fleet=

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Like I said, wars are not won by BC's or fighters alone, it is a combination of the two.

------------------

Commander J.Smith

GCV-ROSETTA

*3rd squadron, Marauder Wing

Stationed, Starbase Fenrir

ICQ#67121847 EST

"choose your allies wisely, for they may turn against you."

=WRAITH FLEET=

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There be a big difference between a war and a battle Mr. Smith.

In a battle one weapons system or platform can prevail on its own. In a war coordinated efforts amongst different weapons systems and platforms is essential; i.e. BCs and Fighters.

No single entity can win a war. USAF learned that the hard way during the Gulf War back in '90, then again last year in Kosavo. Sorta blew their bubble biggrin.gif some (sorry Ron).

No matter what any say, the Ultimate Weapon will always be the Infantry - the Queen of battle tongue.gif

TTFN pea-shooter drivers smile.gif

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Very interestin. smile.gif

Without repeating anyone elses words here, I can see the pro's n con's of both strategies. Fighters have a place in taking down a captiol ship, but they tend to be limited to a support role. A small flight (Talkin 8 or less here) against a BC commander employing jamming and clever use of the afterburner are just delaying the inevitable. Unless a capitol class ship is being engaged by another like sized vessel, and allowing the less important fighter screen to gnaw away at the already damaged shields, It simply aint gonna happen. I believe it is very unlikely that fighters by themselves could do sufficient damage to down a BC. Espech a fully upgraded one, as is likely. An inexperienced commander may well perish under a barrage from an experienced fighter wing, but a commander of Gallions tenure is unlikely to do so.

I'll take that bet, gents. Stop by ORION for the Champaign n complimentry cigars when you finished Gallion. I'll have sickbay bring up the oinment for your little bites. smile.gif

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It seems like we've come to the point where only a battle will resolve this dillema. So just sit on yer thumbs, folks, in about 2 months we'll settle this hog dern right! smile.gif

------------------

Commander David "Whisper" Liev

*Fighter Commander

Sationed, Wraith HQ

"The underestimated weapon will deal overestimated havoc."

=Wraith Fleet=

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quote:

...in about 2 months we'll settle this hog dern right!

This has been my premise from the get go. There be only one way to settle this issue.

So as not to offend anyone.....

[rp]

Each has their own take on which is the way to go or would be the victor in such an entanglement; Fighter v. BC.

There is no wrong answer or tactic for this debate. To stir the worms more and to give ye pa-shooter drivers some assistance, It will take quite a feat of coordination and pea-shooter driver discipline for their Fighters to prevail over a single BC.

Sixteen (16) players is the limit for BCM with ine serving as the host. 'Net lag may be a factor for some pea-shooter drivers, so invest in a decent connection; cable, xDSL, etc.

If the fifteen (15) pea-shooter drivers can manage to maintain some semblence of discipline during this deconstruction process, they just may have a snow ball's chance in defeating a single BC (with no escort) in combat. Fifteen pea-shooters that manage to fire 5-10 Vagrants at the same time just might manage to cause enough damage on the BC to win - their prize would be the pleasurable experience of watching the BC deconstruct. IOW the pea-shooter driver's first strike will be the most important strike. After that the confusion of battle will kick in and most will go maverick seeking their own fame and glory, only to fall victum to their own deconstruction process.

The key to win here pea-shooter drivers is not to allow the BC or me a chance to splinter your attack organization. Blades hit the mark pea-shooter drivers. As Mr. Smith so kindly informed me about the difference between AI and Human control vessels - there be a big difference between them; hear that kids? smile.gif What combat one knows about and is familiar with in BC3K can basically be flushed into any number of sewage systems.

TTFN all ye pea-shooters biggrin.gif

[/rp]

P.S. BTW, check the Insurgent pages. It seems our debate has some of them worried. Don't know why myself, I'm just having fun eek.gif

[This message has been edited by Gallion (edited 06-19-2000).]

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Yeah, i've been watching them... its quite interesting. smile.gif

While we are trying to bring up ideas on fighter tactics, they seem to be thinking on using the old WW2 "bomber formation" to keep the enemy (us) fighters from killing them. Unfortunately, and I hope some some insurgents read this, this time both sides have B-17's and Mustangs..and we got big bad missiles in those Mustangs!.

I have been toying around with TacOps computer lately, using "borrowed" BC's to try to make a formation like the one they describe work... results are not encouraging.. multiple collisions are a norm in such formations when the AI is in charge... and when I think of a human piloting the BC I see that it will be really hard to maintaing a formation under combat... perhaps at low speeds (120 speed) they may be able to maintain formation, but high speed...not likely. If they dont bang on each other they will loose formation really quick.

Anyway, we need to see how the TacOPs and AI will behave in BC:M before we start developing such ideas.

(rp)

This is getting REALLY good! We got them 'surgents ready to hit the panic button mauahahahaha biggrin.gifbiggrin.gifwink.gif (/rp)

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/rp on

No, not panic button. just we must weigh in all factors and plan accordingly. It would be foolish to completly ignore fignters: they are a threat and as such appropriate preparations must be made.

/rp off.

------------------

Cmdr. Antilles

Spectre Fleet

Spectre Starstation

ICV- Eclipse

Chief Security Officer

Learning is not compulsory... Neither is survival.

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Why are several people conviced that a (assume for the sake of argument) BC will mop the celestial floor with 2 flights of fighters? A BC has three offensive assets and two defensive assets.

Offensive: Main Laser- a joke when it come to anti-fighter deatail, as long as the fighters aren't moving real slow and close togheter. If decoupled, the already small maneuverability of a BC is cut to jsut about ziltch, making it a nice fat bulls-eye. Not a threat if fighters don't travel in clumps.

Missiles- Jammers make them irrelevant. But if a missile does achive a lock on a craft, a fighter is fully capable of dodging and destroying the warhead. If worst comes to worst, a fighter can avoid a missile untill the missile runs out of fuel. Not a threat to a good pilot.

PTA- While they fire fast and track quickly, the "stream" of PTA fire is easy to avoid, and the system has several blind spots. The PTA's effective range is only about 5km if both BC and fighter are moving. Even though there are 3 turrets, there are 4 fighters in a flight, and a 2 flights are not a unreasonably sized task force for a normal operation. Not a threat if pilot can use evasive tactics and stays out of effective firing range.

Defensive: Shields- the biggest problem with shields is that they can recharge, and a fully upgraded system can take some serious beating. But if the attacking fighter group is competent and can avoid all offensive systems, it is just a matter of time before the shields get beaten down.

Armor- If a BC starts taking hits with its armor, regardless of upgrades, it's in deep trouble. Systems begin failing, crew start dying, and a wise commander begins contemplating retreat. Armor could still take a number of hits, and there is still chance for survival, but if fighters have done this much already, there ain't much hope.

So, if the pilots know what they're doing, we don't need 15 fighters with Vagrants. 8 will do nicely, and missiles might not even be nesscary if the BC commander isn't too experienced.

------------------

Commander David "Whisper" Liev

*Fighter Commander

Sationed, Wraith HQ

"The underestimated weapon will deal overestimated havoc."

=Wraith Fleet=

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Oh! Gallion! I jsut got a great idea! smile.gif

Your wing (the Corsairs) styles itself as a band of pirates more or less, right? Wouldn't it be fun for a bunch of you Corsairs to learn fighters, and roam around multiplayer picking fights? All the newbies would think "Pshaw! Just 8 fighters? Ha! I got a BC mk3! Bring it on!", while all the vets would remeber the fammed Corsair fighters and chuckle to themselves as the newbie engages. After the green gest ripped to shreds a shuttle could come out and "liberate: some cargo. They could be a kind of roving pirate squadron, luring unsuspecting greenhorns into the gaping jaws of plunder and pillage!

That sound like fun? biggrin.gif

[This message has been edited by Whisper (edited 06-19-2000).]

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LOL Whisper, Ye killed me with that one biggrin.gif

[rp]

There be a fallacy in ye stated premise. Corsairs do not style themselves as pirates. There be a tad bit of difference between a Corsair and a Pirate. Corsairs carry a legal writ from sponsoring government (in this case Galcom) the legalizes non-standard tactics used by them. Pirates are criminals.

In the future leader of the pea-shooter drivers, do not confuse this minor issue

[/rp]

BTW - Corsairs do not drive pea-shooters. We save their arses and ferry them. This is why Fighter Command was created anyway tongue.gif

TTFN

------------------

Commander Gallion

GCV Graf Spee

*1st Squadron, *Corsair Wing

Stationed, *Starbase Cerberus

"Run Silent, Run Deep"

ICQ# 29486270, EST (GMT-5)

=Wraith Fleet=

Second in Command, Wraith Fleet

Bushi of the Dragon Council

Dang - can't spell either smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Gallion (edited 06-20-2000).]

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You 2 crack me up! biggrin.gif

Whisper: While the BC does have limited defense against a fighter strike, its main and best defense is its speed and PTA. Missile hits on the BC will only be scored at point blank range and that will be hard if the BC is going at tops speed, doing slow arcs and rolling slowly to one side. Another problem are the shields. They recharge quite fast and a fully upgraded BC will take a lot of hits before going down. Like i said, this will be good to test in that fight we planning.

Gallion: Fighter Command was created to simplify management of the fleet and to create "roaming" flights of fighters to patrol/attack. Corsair will be using flights like these... think about it.. how many times have you wanted to send your IC's to another gate in order to prepare an ambush? smile.gif

Pilots assigned to the GCV Graf Spee will follow your orders, not whisper's. Any pilot not attached to a ship is under whisper's command. If you ever need pilots that are good at ground strike or at killing cap ships, you talk to whisper and he will see he gets you pilots with those skills for the time you need them.

BC:M is going to rock!

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Darn...

It looks like those gosh dern clever Insurrgents caught on to our evil plot to steal thier top secret battle plans. rolleyes.gif You blew it, Tac! biggrin.gif

For the Hienlien fans out there, TANSTAAFL. Oh well, t'was fun while it lasted. smile.gif

I don't want to rub your Insurrgent noses in this (since I know you're going to read this!), but that whole episode was really quite funny! Imagiane my amazment and delight when the super-secretive rebels were giving out counter-strategies for our very own fledging Fighter Command! You just can't get better intell than that!

No hard feelings, fellas, okay? Just a little boo-boo. And what was that crack at our Fleet Commander?! mad.gif

------------------

Commander David "Whisper" Liev

*Fighter Commander

Sationed, Wraith HQ

"The underestimated weapon will deal overestimated havoc."

=Wraith Fleet=

[This message has been edited by Whisper (edited 06-20-2000).]

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True, missile hits will be rather close, but any manevour a BC can do, a fighter can easily match. And sure, shields recharge fast, but "pea-shooters" are faster. biggrin.gif

Ohh, I can't wait untill BC:M! Weee!

------------------

Commander David "Whisper" Liev

*Fighter Commander

Sationed, Wraith HQ

"The underestimated weapon will deal overestimated havoc."

=Wraith Fleet=

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/rp on

And you are getting excited over idle chatter. Do you really think that we would post current tactics?

/rp off

------------------

Cmdr. Antilles

Spectre Fleet

Spectre Starstation

ICV- Eclipse

Chief Security Officer

Learning is not compulsory... Neither is survival.

[This message has been edited by Eclipse (edited 06-20-2000).]

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This is mere basics we discussing here, any half-brained BC player (hmm that would mean an above-average player in terms of gaming! smile.gif ) will find out this stuff after a few encounters. Just wait until we get the tools (the game) to develop some real stuff.

Eclipse, use RP tags.

"True, missile hits will be rather close, but any manevour a BC can do, a fighter can easily match. And sure, shields recharge fast, but "pea-shooters" are faster"

Yep.. but you gotta dodge PTA and catch up with the speeding BC. That's the hard part. I don't know if you play any online WW2 sims Whisper, but the any attack against a big, unmanouverable, fast target that has turrets is extremely dangerous. If a fighter goes against a B-17 in those games, it will get killed mighty quick unless the fighter flies smart..and that means flanking, diving, etc. This is not possible in BC.. as the cap ship can turn in any direction at any time it wants...not to mention it has mega shields and jump capabitity, and insanely accurate PTA that will be quite painful at close range.

A flight of fighters has a good chance of bringing down a BC... but the BC has also an equal chance of killing most of the flight or getting away.

As my favorite clay-animation program says, "LETS GET IT ON" biggrin.gifbiggrin.gif

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