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Unconventional use of shuttles?


Guest suleo
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Hi all,

Over the past few days and after reading some posts on the subject, I have almost completely used shuttles to tow me whenever I want to go anywhere. That includes inter and intra-system jumps as well as jumps to hostile crafts (in which case I order the shuttle back to the craft the moment I jump out of HJ).

The way I see it, using a shuttle to ferry you around has two advantages:

a) its MUCH faster than using your own engine (it's actually faster than some light fighters!). Therefore, you can intercept hostiles at fighter speeds, or greater-even with a slowwww supercarrier.

B) you use a minimal (not zero, but very close) amount of radine, so if you are a cheapskate (like me:) ) then it's great!

Anyway, what I am getting at is: is this an exploit or a perfectly fine and desirable behavior? Should there be a limit to the allowable weight of the shuttle's tractor beam? (or maybe there is and I am not aware of it).

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Personally, I'd like to see a shuttles power cell deplete much faster if it's towing something. It shouldn't take more than 3-4 jumps to get to a station if you're in trouble. Maybe limit a shuttle to 5 jumps while towing.

Just a thought.

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Hmm,

I've been thinking along the sam lines. Seems kinda cheap in a way, but thats my own personal preference.

I personally do not use shuttles for towing unless it is an emergency.

I do like the experience I had yesterday....My CC was stuck on earth and unable to lift off after I left the FO ( or was it the Nav O..still figuring out who to shoot ) at the helm and told them to head into orbit. Well to make a long story short (and have something to tell in another post), the Idiot damaged the craft so badly I couldnt take off, so I had a Shuttle lift me off the ground and take me to the GALCOM HQ, we got to 30k ft and started loosing altitude. The shuttle could not lift me up any higher, no matter what I did. Pretty cool if you ask me.

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quote:

Originally posted by Skeletun:

I do like the experience I had yesterday....My CC was stuck on earth and unable to lift off after I left the FO ( or was it the Nav O..still figuring out who to shoot ) at the helm and told them to head into orbit. Well to make a long story short (and have something to tell in another post), the Idiot damaged the craft so badly I couldnt take off, so I had a Shuttle lift me off the ground and take me to the GALCOM HQ, we got to 30k ft and started loosing altitude. The shuttle could not lift me up any higher, no matter what I did. Pretty cool if you ask me.

Time to do some shopping at the local parts store and see if your CE is worth his salt!

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quote:


Originally posted by Charles Lindsey:

Hush!
Derek will hear you and "fix" it.


There's nothing to fix cuz it ain't broke.

Its an exploit, like so many. I can't go around fixing every exploit can I? Then the game won't be fun.

...oh wait, maybe I can.

Alright then, I'll come up with something.

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quote:

Originally posted by Supreme Cmdr:

There's nothing to
fix
cuz it ain't broke.

Its an exploit, like so many. I can't go around fixing every exploit can I? Then the game won't be fun.

...oh wait, maybe I can.

Alright then, I'll come up with something.

I would really appreciate if you did take the time to squash exploits. I feel the presence of exploits really hamper my "suspension of disbelief" and thus my feeling of escapism when playing immersive games such as this one.

Thanks SC.

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quote:


Originally posted by Thermidor:

I would really appreciate if you did take the time to squash exploits. I feel the presence of exploits really hamper my "suspension of disbelief" and thus my feeling of escapism when playing immersive games such as this one.

Thanks SC.


You've gotta be kidding me. If the exploit is there and you feel so bad about it. uhm, don't use it.

[ 11-27-2001: Message edited by: Supreme Cmdr ]

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quote:

Originally posted by Supreme Cmdr:

You've gotta be kidding me. If the exploit is there and you feel so bad about it. uhm, don't use it.

[ 11-27-2001: Message edited by: Supreme Cmdr ]

I'd be more worried about the potential effect it could have on multiplayer games. But I'd assume the multiplayer patch would include a lot of exploit/cheat fixes anyway, right?

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quote:


Originally posted by Simparadox:

I'd be more worried about the potential effect it could have on multiplayer games. But I'd assume the multiplayer patch would include a lot of exploit/cheat fixes anyway, right?


patient - "Doctor it hurts when I do that..."

doctor - "So don't do that"

I would equate the "shuttle exploitation loophole" to using a cheat code like "god" mode in a FPS game.

If you feel the need to "cheat" then use it by all means.

I agree that it is something that will have to be changed for multiplayer though. Otherwise ships with shuttles will have a huge unfair advantage over those without.

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Uhm... Personally, I like using the shuttles to get around, but besides the pain it is to get them to let go of you and not have them HJ billions of klicks away, it does seem like a pretty cheap exploit.

Anyway, my real point is that I just had a small comment about the "weight" thing: Remember where the shuttle and whatever craft it's towing are. In space! Do you understand the concept behind that? Weight has no bearing in space, only mass, and mass in space doesn't limit transportation. There's no friction (well, an incredibly small amount of it, anyway. Not enough to be noticed until after some centuries of travel, no doubt...unless you smash into something solid. ). You could go outside and flick your CC and 1) your finger'd hurt like hell, 2) the CC would move in the direction you flicked it at whatever speed your finger's flicking action gave it.

In atmosphere, everything changes, which is probably why the shuttle couldn't lift the CC after a certain point.

[ 11-27-2001: Message edited by: Ancharon ]

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quote:

Originally posted by Ancharon:

Anyway, my real point is that I just had a small comment about the "weight" thing: Remember where the shuttle and whatever craft it's towing are. In
space
! Do you understand the concept behind that? Weight has no bearing in space, only mass, and mass in space doesn't limit transportation. There's no friction (well, an incredibly small amount of it, anyway. Not enough to be noticed until after some centuries of travel, no doubt...unless you smash into something solid. ). You could go outside and flick your CC and 1) your finger'd hurt like hell, 2) the CC would move in the direction you flicked it at whatever speed your finger's flicking action gave it.

[ 11-27-2001: Message edited by: Ancharon ]

I'm not an expert at physics or anything, but I do remember a bit from High School. As far as I know the force needed to provide an object with a certain amount of acceleration is still based on the mass of that object. And that's with friction/air resistance ignored completely.

IIRC, F=ma so acceleration is equal to force over mass. Therefor, more mass requires greater force to achieve the same acceleration. So I doubt if you flicked your finger at your battlecruiser it'd go very far . Anyway, I'd imagine since the engines on a shuttle are much smaller (and since the shuttle itself has much less mass) they wouldn't be capable of pulling a battlecruiser at very high speeds. That is, unless they accelerated for a very long time... but even then, BCM doesn't have any kind of realistic physics model (thank god, or thank SC... whichever ) so you'd just go really really slow for a really really long time.

Uhm... so now I'm just rambling a bit. I doubt the shuttle thing is really that big of a deal. Physics don't behave realistically in the BCM universe, so there's no reason to expect that a shuttle's engines aren't strong enough to pull a CC around at high speeds. Then again, I don't really use the exploit much so it doesn't bother me. On the other hand, in multiplayer it'd be pretty annoying to see a nearly destroyed ship escape a battle because it's shuttle has incredibly powerful engines.

EDIT: Er... unless the nearly destroyed ship was mine. Then it'd be fine.

[ 11-27-2001: Message edited by: Simparadox ]

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Well, it's an exploit all right, so I try hard (:-)) not to use it...

The SC has a pretty good track record with things like this, though, and I wouldn't be surprised to see something's done about it before MP or BCO comes out (in single player you're only cheating yourself if you use it...). I can also see, though, where it makes sense that larger ships are associated with longer jump transit and (especially) recharge times. It does make it hare, though, to keep up with that Diplomat in the 1st ToD mission, so I have to send my FC's to escort him instead.

SC, I wonder if it would make sense to have the jump transit and recharge times depend on the larger of the two ships - the tower or the towee. That would keep the concept of larger ship / longer time intact but also kill the exploit. Thoughts anyone, or am I being stupid again?

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Physics lesson

F=ma does constitute that more force is required in order to give an object of large mass at the same acceleration of a small one. This is the key acceleration (m/s2) is not velocity (m/s) in space assuming ideal conditions, the BC would continue to gain speed until it became infinitely close to the speed of light. Therefore, using any spacecraft thruster, a force supplied over time (an impulse) would continue to increase the acceleration experienced as long as the engines continue to burn. When the engines cease firing, the craft will continue gaining velocity until anther force acts upon it (Newton's first law of motion).

As for hyperspace... conventional Newtonian physics do not apply. The only limiting factor is that matter cannot achieve the speed of light but is possible to go above (in imaginary numbers ((-1)^(1/2) or i) and below provided instantaneous acceleration can be achieved to skip the speed of light because it is an asymptote. If the SC had modeled this in BCM when a craft enters hyperspace, the closer it got to the speed of light its matter would be affected by Einstein's special theories of relativity. One of the theories is for time experienced while in motion. The faster you go, you will experience time passing slower than someone at a lower velocity. The formula is:

time experienced by you= time experienced by someone who is stationary/((1-(your velocity/the speed of light (3x10^8 m/s))^1/2)

(units of speed and time must be the same)

(if the speed of light is achieved the equation is divided by 0 (bad!!))

So if hyperspace brings your ship infinitely close to the speed of light, the transition would be almost instantaneous for you but the rest of the world would have experienced the time required for light to reach your start point to your end point. Time travel gentlemen .

Any questions?

Ice Cold

Physics nut

[ 11-27-2001: Message edited by: IceCold ]

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I don't agree with the "just don't use it" concept when concerning exploits. I don't have a problem with refraining from using exploits, especially when they are obvious. But when they are not so obvious (as in the case of the shuttle tugging) it leaves a glaring flaw in the game environment and play mechanics. I anticipate a response of "But it is obvious!". And my answer will be "No it is not. If you look at the initial post of this conversation thread you will see the proof":

"Anyway, what I am getting at is: is this an exploit or a perfectly fine and desirable behavior?"

If a player of the game has to ask whether a noted exploit is one or not, then it's invading the territory of sound gameplay and it should definitely be removed. Especially in the case of a game which is soon to have multiplayer capability. If you plan on having this series extend into the Massively Multiplayer arena, I am sure you know that squashing exploits is a full time job with those sort of games.

I can understand that there are more important things to attend to at the moment. But I do believe that squashing all known exploits even in the single player game is important for the reasons stated above. Maybe I'm crazy or just an idiot. If so please disregard.

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quote:

Originally posted by IceCold:

Physics lesson

F=ma does constitute that more force is required in order to give an object of large mass at the same acceleration of a small one. This is the key acceleration (m/s2) is not velocity (m/s) in space assuming ideal conditions, the BC would continue to gain speed until it became infinitely close to the speed of light. Therefore, using any spacecraft thruster, a force supplied over time (an impulse) would continue to increase the acceleration experienced as long as the engines continue to burn. When the engines cease firing, the craft will continue gaining velocity until anther force acts upon it (Newton's first law of motion). [ 11-27-2001: Message edited by: IceCold ]

Yep, I was aware of that . I'm usually not that good at getting my point across, but what I was trying to say was that since there isn't a realistic physics model in BCM I just used acceleration and velocity interchangably. Since BCM portrays a ship's engines as being on the entire time it has any speed at all one would assume that it's constantly accelerating and its velocity is increasing as well. But since this isn't the case I guess most of the physics stuff we're discussing really gets thrown out of the window.

As for what you said about hyperspace travel... I won't even try to agree/disagree with that. It seems to be somewhat out of my league when it comes to physics, so it's time for me to just nod and smile.

[ 11-27-2001: Message edited by: Simparadox ]

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quote:

Originally posted by Thermidor:

I don't agree with the "just don't use it" concept when concerning exploits. I don't have a problem with refraining from using exploits, especially when they are obvious. But when they are not so obvious (as in the case of the shuttle tugging) it leaves a glaring flaw in the game environment and play mechanics. I anticipate a response of "But it
is
obvious!". And my answer will be "No it is not. If you look at the initial post of this conversation thread you will see the proof":

"Anyway, what I am getting at is: is this an exploit or a perfectly fine and desirable behavior?"

If a player of the game has to ask whether a noted exploit is one or not, then it's invading the territory of sound gameplay and it should definitely be removed. Especially in the case of a game which is soon to have multiplayer capability. If you plan on having this series extend into the Massively Multiplayer arena, I am sure you know that squashing exploits is a full time job with those sort of games.

I can understand that there are more important things to attend to at the moment. But I do believe that squashing all known exploits even in the single player game is important for the reasons stated above. Maybe I'm crazy or just an idiot. If so please disregard.

Again, I don't use this particular exploit and I don't have much of a problem ignoring it - but I can see what you're saying. I can also see what the person who suggested that exploits make "suspension of disbelief" a bit harder is saying. One thing that always nags me about exploits...

If I'm playing a game I feel like I should play it to the best of my ability, and that includes using every advantage that I know about. On the other hand, I like to play fair (yes, even in single player games). Since "exploits" are really just things that the developers missed during development it's kind of hard to tell whether or not they're fair. After all, it is part of the game and no special "cheats" need to be activated to use it. I have to admit, though, as far as "fast towing" is concerned it seems to be a pretty glaring exploit and one that should be removed before the fan base gets too used to using it (and then complains about it being nerfed when multiplayer comes along ).

[ 11-27-2001: Message edited by: Simparadox ]

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How bout that since the shuttle has a faster speed of almost all craft out there that the Shuttle is only capable of achieving the towed crafts maximum speed. Also shuttles would be unable to achieve escape velocity (orbit) while towing CC's.
This would mean that if your CC is that badly damaged you would either have to use a shuttle to retrieve spare parts or tow it to a starbase.

Kinda harsh but simple..I think

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quote:


Originally posted by Simparadox:

I'd be more worried about the potential effect it could have on multiplayer games. But I'd assume the multiplayer patch would include a lot of exploit/cheat fixes anyway, right?


That I can understand. But, thats why I have a kick-ass Beta team. If it weren't for them, you'd have seen a lot more than 14 bugs in the shipped game. Trust me on this. And if you had ANY doubt that this is a low number compared to the ones they found and which we fixed, read this and thank your lucky stars.

The Beta guys would be playing the mp patch at least a month of more before it ever goes public. Long enough to ensure that all known exploits are extinguished.

The issue with the shuttle is trivial. I just didn't want to ruin a perfectly good feature by plugging it. There is nothing wrong with using a shuttle if the CC is badly damaged. But of course, folks will use this feature even if it isn't. So, am going to come up with something soon. Probably related to the number of jumps that it can do, take the weight of the CC into a/c, deplete the shuttle reactor charge quicker etc. I won't kill the feature, I will just make it less likely to appear to be an exploit. Which, when you think about it, it really isn't.

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