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Soapbox - Graphics vs Gameplay


Supreme Cmdr
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quote:

Originally posted by canusa:

I remember when BC3k v 2.0x came out. Great gameplay with decent, but dated graphics (I had a particular peeve with the white line at the horizon separating the sky from the ground). Other games had better graphics, but it was BC3k that stayed on my hard drive (until BCM came out)...

Bottom line: One year from now, BCM will still be on my hard drive, but those other games probably won't be.

I feel much the same way, while the graphics cannot be as abysmal or non existant as a text mud (hehe), something like 70%-30% is fine.

Games that have left the most lasting impression on me , and continue to have my support every new release of the genre are The Civ Series, Silent Service/Hunter series, and and the Ultima Series (Specifically UO). These are must have resident games on every HDD I have. And none can be said to be graphics wonders.

Its gameplay and sufficient graphics that make a game a legend or another (overly large and expensively packaged) dust collector.

The one game that kept my interest longest was Ultima Online - 4 years! And the only thing that pushed me away was lack of support - something I can see BCM HAS in abundance.

So in short, heavy on gameplay, adequate on graphics with maybe a persistant (mmorpg/sim) universe (which is where BCM is heading if I`m not mistaken) is the winning formula.

Good Job SC!

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I am going to throw my hat into the arena here(and hopefully not loose an arm in the process).

I feel that a game does not have to have the latest cutting edge graphics to succeed like Valmorgan I have a few games of note that have remained on my hard disk and I keep returning to

BCM(obviously it rocks)

BC3K (still there and gets and airing occasionally)

The Xcom/UFO series (up to Apocolypse(?) still can take over weeks of my life)

Jedi Knight(may have had great graphics at its time but I only bought it about three weeks ago)

The only FPS I play which the eye candy adds to the game is Alien V's Predator but other than that I am firmly of the opinion that game play is a lot more important than graphics.

I have a large collection of games I have been collecting for years I love the underdogs as they have loads of games that I have fond memories of from my youth and the reason I love them is for Gameplay plain and simple

Operation Stealth - good game some bad sub games though.

Anyway I'll stop now before I wander off completely.

[ 01-04-2002: Message edited by: Emmett.hendrick ]

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On my opinion there are two ways this problem can be addressed.

If the game is very complex (like BCM), meaning that you can do everything almost like in real life, then I don't care if the graphic is not the latest 3D evolution and my ship does not look like the one rendered in Babylon 5 or my character in First Person is not like those in the Final Fantasy movie.

On the other hand, if the game is not complex (I was thinking to the old Elite, one man, one ship, few options, but still a great game) I would like it with the last graphic engine. I would really like to see those good old games, with the same plot, but with the newest 3D graphic available.

But that is just my opinion.

See you in space

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Gameplay is obviously the most important thing, but this guy (from the most recent posted article) seems to be comparing the past to the present. Doom looked absolutely amazing when it came out, I was stunned. I wasn't thinking 'Well, these graphics aren't all that great but darn this is good gameplay!'. I was thinking 'AAHHHH, that thing just growled at me! Shoot it! Shoot it!'.

Still, for years I have longed for a game that would be as fun and memorable as the Starflight series (both 1 and 2, although I enjoyed 2 more). I think that's one of my favorite aspects about BCM, it reminds me of a 3d version of those Starflight games I used to love so much.

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quote:

Originally posted by Emmett.hendrick:

I am going to throw my hat into the arena here(and hopefully not loose an arm in the process).

I feel that a game does not have to have the latest cutting edge graphics to succeed like Valmorgan I have a few games of note that have remained on my hard disk and I keep returning to

The Xcom/UFO series (up to Apocolypse(?) still can take over weeks of my life)...

I have a large collection of games I have been collecting for years I love the underdogs as they have loads of games that I have fond memories of from my youth and the reason I love them is for Gameplay plain and simple...

[ 01-04-2002: Message edited by: Emmett.hendrick ]

OMG! Yes! X-com was great! Your right though, That series lost me at Apocolypse.

Speaking of Underdogs... I found an alltime favorite called Twilight 2000 there about a year ago. I used to play it on a 33 Mhz!! (hehe). It ran fine under DOS, anyway I see some parallels Between it and BCM, especially the way you can equip and loadout ad infinitum.

The one thing (about Twilight2K) that stands out, and I would LOVE to see in BCM is the Career system.

Basically, you begin each troop (you had 20) after he graduates HS, and you choose his career path (college, tech school, Military,OCS, crime ETC). Each phase carries a random roll to increase different stats/skills, after each phase war may or may not break out and that is the point that character enters the game. This system is repeated for each troop you have, so, for BCM you would do that for every crewmember - tailored for the game of course, and within its scope.

Believe me the system was absolutely awesome, and every character emerged differently - with unique traits and personality.

Sorry to stray off topic here... just daydreaming!

[ 01-04-2002: Message edited by: Valmorgan ]

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Hello,

I'll put in my 2 cents on Gamplay Vs. Graphics, though with you others putting it so well it doesn't seem needed.

Me, I'm all for the gameplay.

But, I do want nice graphics. So, to and for me, it's all an issue of 'balance'.

BCM seems to hit this balance very well, great gameplay, and very good graphics. I'm very happy. This game would be great with lesser graphics, mind you! But with it's current graphics, (which are quite impressive), the game exceeds 'great'.

Idaho

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Guest Hellbinder[CE]

WEll,

I am all for balance. For me BCM totally draws you in and I forget about the graphics. BCM reminds me of a new Chapter Based RPG I tried called Siege of Avalon. IT plays like a long Phantasy Novel, Not an action game. There is a ton of reading, but you end up with a lot of depth. The graphics look like they could have been done on a Sega Saturn. That however is not the point. the game delivers the goods in depth and story. The game delivers on the promise of playing a great novel.

BCM is the Space Simulation counterpart to this idea. It plays like a Giant space SCi-Fi novel. It reminds me of Some of the Great Books I have "lived" while I read it. For me, once I am pluged into the BCM universe the Vasteness of Space and the Completeness of the Simulation more than out weigh the Graphic content. Which really gets to the point. The Graphics never Detract from the Simulation, or suspention of reality.

Anyway, What are they really talking about with the graphics anyway? Most of the effecs in other Space Games are totally fake in the first place. You dont see bucketloads of glowing space dust in a real space enviornment. There are no real Nebulous masses of color floating around gettng in the way all the time. Ever looked at a navy ship or real Space ready craft? They are'nt exactly "pretty" and designed with artistic flair. Its pretty clear that For the most part BCM delivers a more realistic look to the universe.

Overall, Gameplay is 100X more important than the graphics. As long as the graphics do a reasonable job of presenting the Game world thats all you need. Eye candy wears off real fast in every game, especially if the gameplay is a generic cookie cutter "please the masses" bucketload of uninspiring nothingness that most games are today.

When I actually start feelling all alone and loneliness starts to sink in as I run around exploring a planetary surface... When I suddenly "have" to get back to my ship and get off this barren rock before I freak out... And then that relief floods in as I clear my Cruiser of the planets atmosphere and head back towards home....

The Game Has done its job well.

[ 01-08-2002: Message edited by: Hellbinder[CE] ]

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Guest Grayfox

quote:

Originally posted by Hellbinder:

Eye candy wears off real fast in every game, especially if the gameplay is a generic cookie cutter "please the masses" bucketload of uninspiring nothingness that most games are today.


perfect example was unreal... game was gorgeous to look at (at the time) yet the gameplay was as shallow as a kiddie pool... and daikatana... we used to call that "vaporware".

[ 01-14-2002: Message edited by: Grayfox ]

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I agree with most of what's on this board in regards to gameplay being more important. After playing a game with the **BEST** graphics for awhile, you stop caring about looking at the pretty pictures, and about killing the stupid enemies in front of you and beating the game. The fun part of the game is in the actual killing of the enemies and "beating" the game, and not in the pretty pictures you'll eventually not pay attention to anymore. The background eventually becomes something to merely give contrast to the enemy. BCM is probably the best game in gameplay ever, and the graphics are enough to get the job done. If I end up playing a game all night, it will be because I love the gameplay, not because I like pretty pictures. I can always dream for that...

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quote:

Originally posted by Urza:

Gameplay wins, no questions asked. Graphics are just icing on the cake. Which brings us to the many games that are all icing and no cake.

Of course Gameplay wins. Gameplay is the most important factor... I think that Millennium is the best space simulation of the century and it will be the PERFECT simulation with XP1.

This summer will be a summer everyone will remember!

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Gameplay wins everytime. Graphics should support gameplay rather than merely max out a video card. Is it an accident that people are still buying Civilization or Diablo II? Neither are particularly mind blowing (at least by current standards) but they have kept people busy for years, as will BCM. Id rather play Pong than some of the scripted games out today. If I want a totally pre-determined experience I'll rent a movie or read a novel. The pretty vaporware is good to test out one's graphics card (or sell computers at your local electronics store) but does it pass the parking test? As in what cd-rom is parked in my computer at the moment.....

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well, im going to put my vote in for gameplay as well, even though almost everything possible has been stated and restated. with me, its somewhat of an economical issue. do i want 50 bucks to stretch a week, or a few months? everyone has related previous games in which the gameplay overcame the less than super graphics, and i would have to say my best experience(before bcm) would have to be star wars rebellion. other than the boxy tactical mode with the poorly painted backdrop, there werent even any graphics to speak of. i was still playing it last spring! even though i had the ai strategy pretty much figured out so that i could beat it on hard within the first few hundred days or less, it was still fun to make new goals for myself, and the grandeur of having dozens of 8km long spacecraft under my control NEVER got old. but enough of this, i have just finished my last college application(to embark on my journey to follow in the esteemed mr. smarts footsteps) and i am now free to save the galaxy.

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Remember trade wars? Back in the bbs days, when AOL was located in a strip mall, Trade Wars and Leather Goddesses of Phobos were the bomb. Those games were in text only, but were fun.

Trade Wars was especially addictive. It had that feeling of freedom like BCM, and there are certon aspects of that game which BCM has not covered (i.e. the ability to rent or buy planets).

Screw graphix, the ability to land on a planit or walk on the hull of your cc is cooler then any explosion or laserbeam.

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quote:

Originally posted by Epsilon 5:

Antaren.. actually I tried playing Trade Wars not-so-recently... and I was completely lost without graphics So i think at least a graphical base is neended...

Oh well... it's a pity... this means you don't like Interactive Fiction. I love it

Ever played an Infocom game? Still today, they are more interesting than some modern game with great graphics and a stupid storyline.

Storyline, gameplay and interaction are the most important factors in a game. Just think about an rpg you play with your friends around a table. Where are the "special effects" there? Only your imagination. But it's so cool playing rpgs with friends!

I think the most incredible step made by Derek Smart is the advanced AI and the feeling that you can do everything in his game.

When a typical game designer creates a game he knows that there will be some limits. He'll try to make you think you can do whatever you want, but at the end you and your Alter Ego in the game is bound to those limits.

Well... Derek Smart is not a typical game designer... and so BCM has NO LIMITS It's a pity many people do not understand how big is this step in game programming story.

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Just wanted to say: Graphics will always fail without gameplay. If the game sucks, only a fool would keep playing to watch the pretty graphics. The oldest game I still play is MOO (Masters of Orion 1). It's and old DOS game and it uses XMS so it's a pain to get working with Windows. But it has such open gameplay (you had to take over the galaxy) that I still play it. I also have MOO2. I have a copy of BC3k, but when I got it (when I was maybe 12) I couldn't play it (it was too confusing for my simple mind). Now, BCM is here, its awesome, and I think it will outlast most other games simply beacause of how in depth and open it is. And besides, the graphics are pretty darn good too! And this is compared to FPS games. Just turn up the Resolution!

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