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The GG debate


Supreme Cmdr
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I'm not sure if any of you have been following this thread and this thread on GG. I have been following them closely and with curious amusements. Especially at Kasey's comments about the design of the game.

Comments?

Anyway Kasey, I am particularly surprised that you would say that a 2D deck display with dots showing personnel locations (my idea was to do something along the lines of display in Armageddon where they were moving through the station) would have added more to the game and would have been more valuable than the ability to crew any ship in the game. In fact, I am astonished but maybe I shouldn't be. Since this is your first BC game, I can probably see how you don't get why I did it this way.

And also, that feature was never planned for any BC game before BCG. I dropped it [from BCG] for the reasons I already stated in the discussion here.

Also, you said

quote:


It also lacks things that's MORE important in space combat... enemy ship orientation. In a real fighter HUD, there's a gauge/symbology that shows the enemy's velocity vector (direction and speed he's going) right on the HUD. There is NO SUCH information. You'd think that in space combat, knowing the enemy vector is MORE important, but no such thing. There are other strange lapses in features similar to this.

I have NO idea wtf you're talking about. There are several methods for determining a ship's velocity, direction, angle etc etc. You'd have noticed no less than five places where this information is located (even the CVD/VID mode has some of it!) if you weren't busy trying to think of the game for what it isn't.

And then you mention the flight path ladders in IWar. Which are nothing but useless eyecandy and which add NOTHING to the game. At the point I read that, I stopped taking you seriously because you simply can't be serious about some of what you wrote.

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I don't want to talk about PERTRAK any more, SC. I agree it's NOT doable with the current BCM universe. It's your game. It works. Let's leave it at that.

This is not NOT really a COMPLAINT, as the current HUD system works well as is. I have NO PROBLEM killing enemy ships and fighters with it. Indeed, I think I just got my 20000 ep (though I think I lost a few here and there) killing six ships in a row.

I went through pg 21 to 28 in the BCM-G manual multiple times before I wrote that... note.

I can see the target ship's orientation in the VID, but there is no target ship's vector/velocity indicator. How fast IS that ship moving? If I turn on "match target speed", I can take a good guess on what the speed is, but it's ONLY A GUESS. And what happens when I don't want to match target speed?

I can see the enemy ship's range, and "closing" velocity (actually, it's "relative" velocity). But that's just a number. If I have to look at the VID to see the orientation, then it sorta defeats the purpose of having a HUD, doesn't it?

Enemy's ship angle, velocity, and such, can probably be INFERRED from the TLD, but when the range is close enough, you can't SEE the TLD. Both ships are manuevering too wildly. The TLD's off the screen when the ship itself is still onscreen, thus no TLL, so you don't know where to aim!

A target vector indicator of some sort will solve that.

Suggestion: a flat triangle from the target ship pointing to the TLD. The shape and length of the triangle will show you how fast the enemy ship is moving and in that direction, as well as give you better reference point to aim.

quote:

And then you mention the flight path ladders in IWar. Which are nothing but
useless
eyecandy and which add NOTHING to the game.


All I meant by that was IW is one of the only spaceship sims that I recall that DOES handle target VECTOR (not just speed, but VECTOR) in a graphical manner. You can INSTANTLY tell target orientation and velocity with that "ribbon". It may be eye candy, but it's terribly INTUITIVE eye candy.

I must say though, in the BCM external view, with those bitmap "carets" as flight trail, looks REMARKABLY like the "ribbon"...

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quote:

Originally posted by Epsilon 5:

If you haven't noticed, the video display shows where the ship is heading.. and i don't see the practical use of knowing the enemy speed.

I think you misread my statement.

quote:

I can see the target ship's orientation in the VID


As for knowing the enemy speed, I want to know should I get in front of him or behind him...

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quote:


I can see the target ship's orientation in the VID, but there is no target ship's vector/velocity indicator. How fast IS that ship moving? If I turn on "match target speed", I can take a good guess on what the speed is, but it's ONLY A GUESS. And what happens when I don't want to match target speed?

The closure rate and the Tacscan combine to give you this information.

The TLL, TLD and VMI also provide various information in this regard.

quote:


I can see the enemy ship's range, and "closing" velocity (actually, it's "relative" velocity). But that's just a number. If I have to look at the VID to see the orientation, then it sorta defeats the purpose of having a HUD, doesn't it?

When target's are BVR you should not be able to see their orientation as this bears no relevance to anything. The CVD/VID display is only there to provide useful information about the current target, whether its BVR or not.

quote:


Enemy's ship angle, velocity, and such, can probably be INFERRED from the TLD, but when the range is close enough, you can't SEE the TLD. Both ships are manuevering too wildly. The TLD's off the screen when the ship itself is still onscreen, thus no TLL, so you don't know where to aim!

If the TLL/TLD are off-screen, then you shouldn't be shooting now, should you?

quote:


A target vector indicator of some sort will solve that.

Thats what the TLD does and is more useful. You're asking for a pretty graphic display (ala IWar which is useless). Even the Flight Path Trails, to me, are pretty useless.

quote:


Suggestion: a flat triangle from the target ship pointing to the TLD. The shape and length of the triangle will show you how fast the enemy ship is moving and in that direction, as well as give you better reference point to aim.

The TLD does that. Use it with a combination of the VMI.

Also, if you have FPT enabled in CONFIG and you have the target locked up in STT mode, the FPT will be visible in the front view (as it does in the external camera and Tacops)

quote:


Originally posted by Kasey Chang:

As for knowing the enemy speed, I want to know should I get in front of him or behind him...


You don't need to know the target's speed in order to do that. The closure rate, match target speed give you an idea of its speedn. And the Tacscan tells you if its behind or in front of you. Read the manual. Yes, its in there.

[ 07-22-2003, 08:26 AM: Message edited by: Supreme Cmdr ]

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quote:

This is not NOT really a COMPLAINT, as the current HUD system works well as is. I have NO PROBLEM killing enemy ships and fighters with it. Indeed, I think I just got my 20000 ep (though I think I lost a few here and there) killing six ships in a row.

Realistically speaking, Kasey, your making this a whole lot more complicated than it should be. If your not having any trouble killing ships why are you complaining(and yes, you are)? If it's not broke don't fix it. Christ.

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What's the downside of a little healthy discussion? Whether Kasey's right or wrong is irrelevant. From where I'm sitting, the SC seems more than willing to engage in a little debate. Maybe he finds the feedback valuable? Or at least entertaining?

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quote:

Originally posted by Kasey Chang:

As for knowing the enemy speed, I want to know should I get in front of him or behind him...

Always go to the front.

And personally, I believe that having the information at hand the way Kasey discribes, will make you react to the targets vector more than you should. Too much info is more dangerous than too little.

If you don't know what this means, I would love to do some dogfighting with you.

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Oh, I know exactly what you mean, DreadX. It's called "chasing the cursor". I covered this newbie weakness in one of my Wing Commander FAQs...

Starship combat in BC universe, with R/R and B/C with a healty dose of 360 degree PTA turrets and solitary shields (i.e. no shield orientation), manuevering is actually LESS important than something like, say, Bridge Commander, but I'm getting off topic, so I think I'll stop here.

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quote:


Originally posted by dreadx:

quote:

Originally posted by Kasey Chang:

As for knowing the enemy speed, I want to know should I get in front of him or behind him...


Always go to the front.

And personally, I believe that having the information at hand the way Kasey discribes, will make you react to the targets vector more than you should. Too much info is more dangerous than too little.

If you don't know what this means, I would love to do some dogfighting with you.


And this reminds me something I read in that thread about model scaling. Kasey, other games don't blow up the model sizes just to make them easier to see/shoot. The issue is that they are moving often so slowly that they are on screen long enough to get larger. Also because they are rarely to scale.

Because BC models are accurately scaled and are primarily fast movers, you're never gonna get close enough to see them large enough to see the pilot's eyeballs unless you're committed to a collision or they're just parked there. Even in flight sims, most combat takes place BVR which is why guns are rarely effective and only during a head on or separation pass. Only simmers would have a clue what I'm talking about I think.

Anyway, it was because of this that I implemented the TLL, TLD and match target features.

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quote:

Originally posted by Supreme Cmdr:

Other games don't blow up the model sizes just to make them easier to see/shoot. The issue is that they are moving often so slowly that they are on screen long enough to get larger. Also because they are rarely to scale.


Hmmm... What I read before, for games like Red Baron 3D or Flying Corp (WW1 flight sims) was they made the "scaling" as they don't want to use something so anachronistic as a "HUD" or "bracket/box" around distant bogeys that wouldn't be larger than a pixel.

quote:

Because BC models are accurately scaled and are primarily fast movers, you're never gonna get close enough to see them large enough to see the pilot's eyeballs unless you're committed to a collision or they're just parked there. Even in flight sims, most combat takes place BVR which is why guns are rarely effective and only during a head on or separation pass. Only simmers would have a clue what I'm talking about I think.

Anyway, it was because of this that I implemented the TLL, TLD and match target features.

I know exactly what you're talking about, SC. I used to work at Spectrum HoloByte, and I QA'ed FOTI and Falcon ST. I know about HUD symbologies long before I heard about BC I'm kinda surprised you didn't implement something like Falcon's "funnel sight" for the IOD's.

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quote:

Originally posted by Kasey Chang:

I'm kinda surprised you didn't implement something like Falcon's "funnel sight" for the IOD's.

The BC TLL is pretty much the same thing.

HUD symbology is realistic, at least when compared to today's fighters. Closing velocity is there and so is range. You really don't need TOF symbology with ammo that moves at light speed. You've got a floating pipper linked to ship's flight path and plenty of in-range indicators.

Add to that, there is data beyond what you can get with 20th century fighters (real ones ... not the PC-simulated kind). Like the TLD. And Sci-Fi stuff like the CVD.

And with the jammers (EMD), a more sophisticated LWI really isn't necessary.

Don'tcha just love it?

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quote:

Originally posted by Marvin:

Add to that, there is data beyond what you can get with 20th century fighters (real ones ... not the PC-simulated kind). Like the TLD. And Sci-Fi stuff like the CVD.


Correct, but since I worked as a weapons-engineer on a light cruiser, I know what kind of systems are in use today.

TLD. Doesn't exist as a seperate system but is implemented as a filter (alpha-beta-gamma-filter to be precise) in the algorithm for the firing-solution. We use it to aim our guns and missile-systems.

CVD. Oh yes, they exist. With todays conflicts, it is more and more important to have a visual indent on a target before opening fire (remember the "accidentally" shooting down of an airliner). So we use powerfull cameras to get a nice view of the target. We also use infrared and EM information to determine the state of the target.

Add a thousand years of technology and the same systems will be miniaturized to fit a fighter.

BTW. The TLD only needs the processing power of a C64. The imaging systems would require a lot more depending on resolution.

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The only fighter currently capable of visually ID the bogey at extended range is the F-14, I believe, unless they deployed some new sensor pods I don't know about...

CVD is not practical on a ground/sea-based platform due to curvature of Earth, which limits you to... what, 20 or so miles on Earth? Though with the advent of semi-autonomous RPVs that limitation MAY soon go away.

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  • 2 months later...

I think the problem here is this Kasey guy, and probably a lot of other people, aren't really taking the time to master the controls and learn to use the information that is provided to it's fullest.

When you start playing BC, you simply have to concern yourself with the basics. To try to do more would cause your brain to explode. After you play like this for a while you have to step up and study that manual a little more and learn to use those things you've been skipping over.

Every time I play BC (I'm quite capable in the game but nowhere near mastered) I find out how some feature really does help a lot and I find out how to use it right.

For example, I used to use the , and . keys exclusivly to cycle through targets. In fights this turned out to be very cumbersome to try to target an attacker using this method. Then I remembered seeing a "Nearest target in my line of sight" key and tried it out. Sure helps a lot obviously.

BCM is a lot easier to use than it's predecessors. The pick up and play aspect has really improved. Yet the game is still a SIMULATION and requires you to think if you expect to get better.

Just my .02 creds.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Speaking of HUDÔÇÖs, one of the things I donÔÇÖt see on the CC when on a planet is the artificial horizon display.

Of course when I get into a shuttle, it has it. Does this exist for the CC? How do you turn it on? It would be useful when I am on the dark side of the moon and I canÔÇÖt visibly see the horizon.

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At one point Derek was contemplating removing the ability of the CC to enter planetary atmospheres. Caused quite a ruckus it did. We cried, begged, pleaded, gnashed teeth, rent clothes, and basically whined it back in.

So instead of disabling something that already worked I think Derek left it in just so he wouldn't have to hear about it.

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