Supreme Cmdr Posted May 27, 2005 Report Share Posted May 27, 2005 Similar to the BCM to BCM Gold transition. Start here. The mp component has a bunch of features culled from UC and a bunch of other fixes, tweaks and improvements to both the single and multiplayer components. Other than that, the mp component is identical to the one in UC, but out of the box, all patches, tweaks, new features etc are already integrated. [ 07-01-2005, 08:36 AM: Message edited by: Supreme Cmdr ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cc Posted May 27, 2005 Report Share Posted May 27, 2005 Cool! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shihminhao Posted May 28, 2005 Report Share Posted May 28, 2005 Got to get this one and UCAWA~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiloton Posted June 1, 2005 Report Share Posted June 1, 2005 What are the performance/capability differences between GameCom and ReplicaNet that prompted the switch for multiplayer? As a dabbling game programmer who would like to implement MP sometime soon I am curious but also will understand if you are too busy to answer this completely, SC. Thanks, Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supreme Cmdr Posted June 1, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2005 If you play the original game release and the recent patch, you will have your answer. Its not just performance related. Instead of asking me questions about stuff thats out there, why - as a programmer - don't you go and take a look at both APIs? They're out there you know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiloton Posted June 1, 2005 Report Share Posted June 1, 2005 I will do that. I did a search and found ReplicaNet's freebie and downloaded it along with GameCom. Thanks, SC. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Shingen Posted June 1, 2005 Report Share Posted June 1, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Supreme Cmdr: If you play the original game release and the recent patch, you will have your answer. Its not just performance related. Whatever you guys did, it's night and day to what it was. Ben took me out the other night and there wasn't a glich or hiccup at all. One thing remains still, and to quote Marvin here: "Persistant Universe! Persistant Universe! Persistant Universe!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvin Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Shingen: One thing remains still, and to quote Marvin here: Funny. I was talking to someone just the other day about how you could get into trouble by being quoted. The least you could've done, Shin, was correct my spelling. It's spelled p-e-r-s-i-s-t-e-n-t ... sometimes I get sloppy when responding to a PM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supreme Cmdr Posted June 2, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 One - or both - of you, don't know what persistent is. The mp world - like the sp world - is persistent. So I have no idea what you folks are yammering about. If we're talking about server side client stats saving; as I've said before; there are NO plans to do that in any game other than UCO, which is designed to do that from the ground up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Shingen Posted June 5, 2005 Report Share Posted June 5, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Supreme Cmdr: One - or both - of you, don't know what persistent is. The mp world - like the sp world - is persistent. So I have no idea what you folks are yammering about. Sorry, at the risk of getting my head bit off again, but the current MP game isn't persistent, because it reboots every 24 hours. Yes, I know why it does this, so you needn't explain it to me. quote:If we're talking about server side client stats saving; as I've said before; there are NO plans to do that in any game other than UCO, which is designed to do that from the ground up. Again, my apologies.. I was trying for a little comic levity when I quoted Marvin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supreme Cmdr Posted June 5, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Shingen: quote:Originally posted by Supreme Cmdr: One - or both - of you, don't know what persistent is. The mp world - like the sp world - is persistent. So I have no idea what you folks are yammering about. Sorry, at the risk of getting my head bit off again, but the current MP game isn't persistent, because it reboots every 24 hours. Yes, I know why it does this, so you needn't explain it to me. uhm, the server rebooting is because I use ServerDoc to do that every eight hours and has nothing to do with the game or its persistent thereof. ...and I'm not sure you know why I reboot all the servers every eight hours. But I will tell you anyway. It is BECAUSE of the persistence of the game world, that I do that. No other reason. If I didn't, then because the game runs in real time, some people who want to play on a virgin server, may join a server when, for e.g. a station has depleted all its resources (trade, NPC ships etc etc) and this would make the game not fun. Why? because there is no server-side client stats saving. That is another reason why I made stations invincible. Otherwise, after awhile, there won't be stations to launch from if they have been destroyed by players or NPCs...especially since they can take up to eight hours to repair. How would you like to join a server and have your connection refuse because there are no functional stations for the race/caste you are trying to play? Thats the only reason why I use ServerDoc to reboot the servers every eight hours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Shingen Posted June 5, 2005 Report Share Posted June 5, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Supreme Cmdr: uhm, the server rebooting is because I use ServerDoc to do that every eight hours and has nothing to do with the game or its persistent thereof. ...and I'm not sure you know why I reboot all the servers every eight hours. But I will tell you anyway. Nope..didn't know they reset every 8 hours. Learn somethin new everyday. quote:It is BECAUSE of the persistence of the game world, that I do that. No other reason. If I didn't, then because the game runs in real time, some people who want to play on a virgin server, may join a server when, for e.g. a station has depleted all its resources (trade, NPC ships etc etc) and this would make the game not fun. Why? because there is no server-side client stats saving. That is another reason why I made stations invincible. Otherwise, after awhile, there won't be stations to launch from if they have been destroyed by players or NPCs...especially since they can take up to eight hours to repair. How would you like to join a server and have your connection refuse because there are no functional stations for the race/caste you are trying to play? Thats the only reason why I use ServerDoc to reboot the servers every eight hours. With all due respect, you've just proven my point for me... if the game resets every 8 hours, for whatever reason, it isn't persistent. It's persistent, until it reboots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supreme Cmdr Posted June 5, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Shingen: Nope..didn't know they reset every 8 hours. Learn somethin new everyday. Why is that not surprising? There isn't much you pay attention to, is there? And then you wonder why you find yourself - regularly - at loggerheads with most around here. quote:With all due respect, you've just proven my point for me... if the game resets every 8 hours, for whatever reason, it isn't persistent. It's persistent, until it reboots. Actually all I've proven is that you have no clue what you're talking about; nor do you know (Dictionary definition notwithstanding) what persistence means within the scope and context of this discussion. Since I'm too bored to continue and seeing that I don't usually engage in pointless debates (you should know me by now), I'll just let others read the posts and laugh themselves stupid at the silliness of it all. Its just silly really. I mean, what is so difficult to understand? The game (both single and multiplayer) is 100% persistent. Period. The fact that I reset the servers MANUALLY doesn't mean squat nor take away this fact. I do it specifically for the aforementioned reasons. Whether you accept it or not - or continue with the usual silly circular arguments, is your problem, not mine. Frankly, it makes no difference to me whatsoever. A car is a car; whether it has an engine or not, it is a car. The gameworld is persistent, regardless of whether or not the servers reset or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Shingen Posted June 6, 2005 Report Share Posted June 6, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Supreme Cmdr: Why is that not surprising? There isn't much you pay attention to, is there? I actually remember reading that when you posted it. quote: And then you wonder why you find yourself - regularly - at loggerheads with most around here. To be honest, I'm pretty straight with everyone in this community. I've never tried to be anything other then what I am, and I'm true to my word. I don't know what you've got against me.. quote:Actually all I've proven is that you have no clue what you're talking about; nor do you know (Dictionary definition notwithstanding) what persistence means within the scope and context of this discussion. Since I'm too bored to continue and seeing that I don't usually engage in pointless debates (you should know me by now), I'll just let others read the posts and laugh themselves stupid at the silliness of it all. Its just silly really. I mean, what is so difficult to understand? The game (both single and multiplayer) is 100% persistent. Period. The fact that I reset the servers MANUALLY doesn't mean squat nor take away this fact. I do it specifically for the aforementioned reasons. Whether you accept it or not - or continue with the usual silly circular arguments, is your problem, not mine. Frankly, it makes no difference to me whatsoever. A car is a car; whether it has an engine or not, it is a car. The gameworld is persistent, regardless of whether or not the servers reset or not. Well I wish I could debate this with you further, as I strongly disagree with your definition of "persistent", as it pertains to gaming. However I'm sick of being banned for stating my perceptions...and you have this incessant habit of attacking anyone with an opposing opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supreme Cmdr Posted June 6, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Shingen: However I'm sick of being banned for stating my perceptions...and you have this incessant habit of attacking anyone with an opposing opinion. Shingen, this is the sort of thing that truly pisses me off about you. First of all, NOBODY gets banned for stating their opinions and perceptions. Thats just nonsense. YOU get banned for breaking the rules around here. Period. And further, I'm not the only one you get into your silly tiffs with. I have an inbox full of emails, internal mod/admins mailing list and PMs with complaints about you. And nobody has EVER been banned around here for having an opposing view. Thats just ludicrous. If that were the case, for as many times as you've been banned - and given this thread for example - you won't have been here to continue posting. Now, if you can't debate an issue without injecting this sort of nonsense into your posts, please don't post or you will be banned again. And if that happens, you won't be back. I already told you this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvin Posted June 6, 2005 Report Share Posted June 6, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Supreme Cmdr: And if that happens, you [shingen] won't be back. That would be sad, SC ... the battle between the two of you (with Remo as your "second") is the next best thing to MP fleet meets. Heck, it has become a tradition. And about the "persistent" thing ... some of us simply use it as a shorthand term, in PMs or at the fleet forums, for the type of play you described above: quote:If we're talking about server side client stats saving; as I've said before; there are NO plans to do that in any game other than UCO, which is designed to do that from the ground up.Which is why I don't use it here, in the 3000AD forum, to describe server-side stats. For those not familiar with the shorthand, it can be confusing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supreme Cmdr Posted June 6, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Marvin: Which is why I don't use it here, in the 3000AD forum, to describe server-side stats. For those not familiar with the shorthand, it can be confusing. A persistent game world, server game world save/restore and server-side client stats save/restore, are completely different things. An MMO game traditionally has to support all the following three. Thats the very nature of those games. Persistent game worldServer game world save/restoreClient server-side stats save/restore In order to achieve this, the server has to save the state of the game world and restore it at exactly that stage in the event of a server shutdown. And when a client logs back on, this should be transparent to them because as long as the world is as they left it, and their stats (on said server) are as they left it, they can continue like nothing happened. MMO servers shutdown ALL the time. Then they reboot. Does that make them non-persistent? According to Shingen, yeah. At least I think thats what he is saying. Freelancer mp has a persistent world as well as client stats saving. AFAIK, when you shutdown the server and restart it, it resets the world (unless of course the server saves the game world state, like how MMOs do). Then when a client - whose stats were saved on the server - joins later, the server calls up his stats. Does that make the Freelancer mp persistent? uhm, yeah. Does that bear ANY relevance whatsoever to server gameworld or client stats saving? Nope. In UC mp, the server does not save ANYTHING. Not the game world, nor the client stats. So, if you never ever shutdown the server and let it run forever, no matter how many times a client logs of and logs back on, the server world would have changed from the last visit. If the server is shutdown, since it doesn't do ANY server side saving, the game world is reset. Does that mean that the UC mp server is not persistent? uhm, no. Why? because that has absolutely nothing to do with the server's ability to save/restore the game world nor client stats. The ability for a game world to be persistent has absolutely NOTHING to do with whether or not the server supports world and client stats saving. Absolutely nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Prezioso Posted June 6, 2005 Report Share Posted June 6, 2005 Hmmm...before this thread I thought I knew what persistence in a gameworld was. Hah! After all this, I now realize I didn't have a clue! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supreme Cmdr Posted June 6, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2005 Well, you're not alone. Stand over there in the corner next to Shingen. A persistent game world - to those who know what the heck they're talking about - is one in which, regardless of actions external to the world (e.g. player interaction), it will continue. e.g. in an MMO, an NPC going from point A to point B will still do that, regardless of whether or not any client is currently logged on to the server. MOST games require player input, interaction etc in order to move forward. This is usually done via trigger points (in the level or game world), scripts triggered based on player action etc etc. Thats not persistence. DOOM 3 for example, is as persistent as I am PC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Prezioso Posted June 7, 2005 Report Share Posted June 7, 2005 After reading your description, SC, it's a lot clearer. I'm not a programmer of any kind, never really had it explained before, and had some incorrect assumptiomns. quote: DOOM 3 for example, is as persistent as I am PC. Wow! That's SOOOO not persistent! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Shingen Posted June 19, 2005 Report Share Posted June 19, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Supreme Cmdr: Well, you're not alone. Stand over there in the corner next to Shingen.. Derek, we've been doing this for going on 6 years now. I yam what I yam and that's all that I yam. Love me or hate me, I'm here to stay. quote:Originally posted by Supreme Cmdr: A persistent game world - to those who know what the heck they're talking about - is one in which, regardless of actions external to the world (e.g. player interaction), it will continue. e.g. in an MMO, an NPC going from point A to point B will still do that, regardless of whether or not any client is currently logged on to the server.Well I was making a joke at Marvin's expense, and I may not be "in the know", or what ever, but my idea of "persistent" includes everything you've just posted, so we're in agreement there. quote:Originally posted by Supreme Cmdr: MOST games require player input, interaction etc in order to move forward. This is usually done via trigger points (in the level or game world), scripts triggered based on player action etc etc. Thats not persistence. DOOM 3 for example, is as persistent as I am PC. My idea of "persistent" online games would be: Trade Wars 2002v2 (MajorBBS) I played a TW game of upwards of 18 months way back in '92. 5000 sectors, 1500 turns. Game ran 24/7, never reset and except for maintinence, the game was online and playable. Terminus: Played a Terminus game for upwards of 3 months (on and off) no resets. I got my ass kicked regularly and took a few names myself. Anyway, please excuse my ignorance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teknocack Posted June 19, 2005 Report Share Posted June 19, 2005 Forgive a n00b butting in but it seems to me that this whole discussion between SC and Shingen is simply both of them defining persistence from two perspectives: the gamer, and the progammer. Just my two cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supreme Cmdr Posted June 19, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 19, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Shingen: quote:Originally posted by Supreme Cmdr: Well, you're not alone. Stand over there in the corner next to Shingen.. Derek, we've been doing this for going on 6 years now. I yam what I yam and that's all that I yam. Love me or hate me, I'm here to stay. Yep, thats why we love to hate you. quote:Originally posted by Shingen: My idea of "persistent" online games would be: Trade Wars 2002v2 (MajorBBS) I played a TW game of upwards of 18 months way back in '92. 5000 sectors, 1500 turns. Game ran 24/7, never reset and except for maintinence, the game was online and playable. Terminus: Played a Terminus game for upwards of 3 months (on and off) no resets. I got my ass kicked regularly and took a few names myself. Anyway, please excuse my ignorance. Yeah, and thats the problem. What you describe it not persistence. Not in the least. Leaving your oven on and going to bed doesn't mean that its going to bake a cake if there isn't anything in it. Anyone can take a server online - even a server for an fps game - and walk away from it for three months. All of a sudden that makes it persistent? uhm, no. quote:Originally posted by Teknocack Prime: Forgive a n00b butting in but it seems to me that this whole discussion between SC and Shingen is simply both of them defining persistence from two perspectives: the gamer, and the progammer. Just my two cents. Yep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teknocack Posted June 19, 2005 Report Share Posted June 19, 2005 Damn, Shingen. All that time wasted instead of blowing crap up. Are you kiddin' me? Gee, in a way your both right. Mebbe we can have some peace and quiet now that that's figured out.......NAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Shingen Posted June 23, 2005 Report Share Posted June 23, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Supreme Cmdr: Yep, thats why we love to hate you. Well Derek, at least I know I'm doin' my job as an indie. Die hard BCgamer, that don't take no shit. What's wrong with that? You created BC indies after all, and now you don't wanna hear from us? quote:Originally posted by Supreme Cmdr: Yeah, and thats the problem. What you describe it not persistence. Not in the least. Leaving your oven on and going to bed doesn't mean that its going to bake a cake if there isn't anything in it. Anyone can take a server online - even a server for an fps game - and walk away from it for three months. All of a sudden that makes it persistent? uhm, no.If you are trying to tell me that Terminus isn't persistent, then you haven't played that game at all. That game has as many NPC characters running around inside the gameworld as UC does, online, and the game doesn't have to freakin' reset every 8 hours to stay stable, and it was released in 1999/2000. No offense, but I've been playing UCMP since Feb 2004, so I'm ain't freakin' stupid...at least give me a little credit... Anyway..let's move on...shall we? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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