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First Person POV


Supreme Cmdr
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I have seen some questions about this and I am beginning to think that some explanation is required, so that everyone can be on the same page.

This is a post culled from the Dreamcatcher forum. Discuss.

quote:


Originally posted by Hokey Gundam

Another question though; will the first person perspective view allow the screen to rotate vertically (through the lateral(?) axis?) when the players head moves up and down, or will the screen remain still and the aiming reticle move?


Please explain.

But let me guess at what you are asking

Currently in BCM/G, when you move the mouse up/down, the weapon in your hand will move up/down (as will the crosshair). This has been disabled in UC so that the up/down mouse movement does not affect the weapon at all - only the crosshair.

The reason the POV is not adjusted (in up/down) when not in mouselook mode, is because of the animations. e.g. in StandIdle mode, your character's body is still doing some movement (the idle movement). So, if the POV were to be attached to the camera, even when you are not moving the mouse up/down, the POV will move up/down (a possible jitter effect) according to the movement of the character animation. So, e.g. if in idle mode the guy is looking left/right etc, you will have the same effect. This means that you will *never* have a pure "ahead" look. And some people will experience motion sickness from this effect.

Moving the mouse left/right, actually turns your character's body in that direction. When you turn on mouselook, this just turns your POV (head). This allows you to be moving in one direction, while looking in another.

What'd I miss? And Epsilon5, please try to explain in detail what you were refering to in the other thread. I would like to keep the fp convention true to fp action games, but not at the sacrifice of functionality.

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I think you hit the nail on the head. What I think everyone (myself included) wants is for the whole screen/POV/whatever to move with the mouse, not just the crosshair. I know it does when you turn, but not with up/down mouse movements.

Now, I understand that you might not be able to implement that for whatever reason, but to "keep the fp convention true to fp action games", that's pretty much what people want.

I hope it can be done for UC, but if it can't, well, we can always go play Unreal or something, right?

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Read what I wrote again please Howie.

It CAN be done. The problem that you folks are NOT thinking about is that the POV will continue to *MOVE* whether or not you move the mouse up/down/left/right. Is that what you really want? How are you going to get accurate aiming then if the crosshair is moving (because the POV is also moving) even though you are not doing anything?

And if you wanted to move your POV (head) up/down, isn't that what mouselook is for?

Or am I still missing something?

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A lot of people want the movement to be the same as any first person shooter. If you have played any modern shooter game at all, like half life etc, you would know that the screen shifts when the crosshair moves to aim. The crossahir always remains in the middle of the screen.

quote:

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The problem that you folks are NOT thinking about is that the POV will continue to *MOVE* whether or not you move the mouse up/down/left/right. Is that what you really want? How are you going to get accurate aiming then if the crosshair is moving (because the POV is also moving) even though you are not doing anything?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When you say "*MOVE*" Is this the idle movement of the POV? And if so, is it possible to make the idle movement cease when the game detects player input from the mouse? Would you then have smooth and "accurate aiming"?

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quote:


Originally posted by Extinct_Reptilia:

If you have played any modern shooter game at all, like half life etc, you would know that the screen shifts when the crosshair moves to aim. The crossahir always remains in the middle of the screen.


Don't be cheeky. I know what the convention is. Thats NOT the issue I am discussing.

quote:


When you say "*MOVE*" Is this the idle movement of the POV?

Isn't that was I said above?

quote:


And if so, is it possible to make the idle movement cease when the game detects player input from the mouse? Would you then have smooth and "accurate aiming"?

No. The animation is part of the model. And THAT is the issue I am talking about. ALL fp games cheat. I'm not cheating and don't intend to. Simply put, in order to stop the animation just because the player moved the mouse, means I have to stop the character from, e.g. breathing (which is part of the idle animation). And stopping the animation from playing, means making revisions to the animation engine - which I have no intentions of doing.

So, if I moved the crosshair with the POV (as is the fp convention), because the the character animation is still playing, there will be jitter because of the animation. This means that you can fire all you want, but if the animation movement causes a POV shift, it will be translated to the crosshair. What does this mean? Exactly what I said above - your aiming will be OFF by the amount of the POV+crosshair shift. In fact, when you are running + firing, you are likely to miss because of your running movement. Sure, you probably won't miss a barn door at 500m, but you'll certainly miss a smaller target (e.g. another character).

I don't think any of you have a clue what I'm talking about, do you? Please try to understand the issue before posting. The quality of posts count around here. Jumping in feet first and without a clue, does not.

OK, do this

  1. Download BCStudio and extract it into the game install folder
  2. Start it up and load the MARINE_EFORCE_A.3D model using File/Open
  3. Turn on the ground plane (G icon)
  4. Go to Model/Ground Reposition All and select it
  5. Go to the Animations menu and select the StandReady2HW (2-hand weapon used for rifles)>
  6. Turn on the animation playback (filmstrip icon)

See that idle movement? See how the hands move up/down etc? THATS what I'm talking about. The crosshair will NEVER be fixed in one position if I make this change. So, you ladies need to think CAREFULLY about this because its one of the changes which I can't just go back and undo on a whim - especially if I spend time doing it.

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Firstly, if you're not prepared to decouple crosshair/POV movement from the actual head of the model due to the animations etc, then you're never going to get what is being asked for. Whether or not you're happy with that is, of course, up to you.

Secondly, my handle is Huwie, not Howie. And I can't speak for anyone else around here, but I am most definitely not a lady.

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quote:


Originally posted by Huwie:

Secondly, my handle is Huwie, not Howie. And I can't speak for anyone else around here, but I am most definitely not a lady.


Firstly, Getting petty now, are we? How old are you? Nine? BC games are rated T (which invariably means, you must be older than twelve to own/play one). If you've never seen the term ladies used in a military setting to refer to personnel, thats your problem.

Secondly, I said Howie. So what? And if you're one of the ladies I'm refering to in this thread, then deal with it.

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I'm going to guess then that the FP controls will be nearly the same as BCM/ BCMG since there wasn't anything wrong with it there.

I think people are getting confused with the ability to look around separate from the direction your weapon is pointing. I can;t think of any recent FPS games that have that option.

In fact I think most FPS gamers have gotten used to the idea that the player character has a neck brace that prevents the head from turning without rotating the entire body.

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Guest rtoolooze

S.C., if when holding the A and W keys, or the W and D keys at the same time, will the character move at a 45% angle? You know, instead of just moving fowards, backwards, and side to side?

(also the A and s keys, and the S and D keys too, whe moving backwards and to the side, of course)

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I dunno... the K.I.S.S. aspect of FP games is probably what people are used to...

The old WSAD + SPACEBAR + CTRL + SHIFT and left clicking like crazy and using the mouse totally as your POV control...

I suppose it all gets down to the FEEL of it...

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quote:


Originally posted by rtoolooze:

S.C., if when holding the A and W keys, or the W and D keys at the same time, will the character move at a 45% angle? You know, instead of just moving fowards, backwards, and side to side?


No, the controls in UC are the same as in BCM/G.

One slight change is that Q/E will no longer turn the character model on its heels, but instead will play the walk animation along the direction of the turn.

quote:


Originally posted by $iLk:

I dunno... the K.I.S.S. aspect of FP games is probably what people are used to...

The old WSAD + SPACEBAR + CTRL + SHIFT and left clicking like crazy and using the mouse totally as your POV control...

I suppose it all gets down to the FEEL of it...


heh, yeah, but it doesn't mean thats the correct way of doing it. Normally, if the mouse moves your POV, which in turn also moves your targeting crosshair, its the bones associated with the arms that should control that movement (with limits e.g. you can't look straight up without breaking your neck) - not some arbitrarily programmed limits.

And mouselook controls the bones in your head, neck etc etc, so that when you use it, its your head that turns, not your body. If you want to turn/strafe your body, then you use the Q/E/A/D.

The mouse shouldn't normally be allowed to control physical movement of the character because thats not what its for. e.g. you could be running (left hand on W) in one direction (ahead), while looking in another direction (left) using the mouse (right hand on mouse).

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I think it has more to do with the fact that it would help to be simple, not because it's the correct way of doing it... but because the incorrect way of doing it allows for "twitch" reflexes that are impossible to simulate accurately on a keyboard without cheating.

In RL, I can twist my body, raise my arm, and aim and fire a pistol in a short period, simply from the nerve impulses in my body.

If I had to push a seperate button to control:

My head

My arm

My torso

My legs

etc.

The reaction time would be somewhat skewed, despite the fact that it is simulated accurately...

Am I making any sense?

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Most games feature idle movement, i.e. breathing, but when idle the crosshair could have an override (I believe that's seen in operation flashpoint, the gun moves slightly, but the crosshair stays at the same place) - but my point was as it was stated, to have the crosshair always at the center of the screen no matter where i am aiming.

Then again, the FP view of someone (the gun in your hand in your screen) in many games is often different to what other players actually see - i believe that's a method used to bypass the problem you are describing (did you ever noticed you can look down, see your shadow, but no legs?). Indeed if the view has to follow whereever the gun aims at when the character is breathing, walking or else, it would be hard for the eye.

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quote:


Originally posted by Epsilon 5:

but my point was as it was stated, to have the crosshair always at the center of the screen no matter where i am aiming.


Thats how it is now, isn't it? The only difference in BCM/G being that moving up/down moves the weapon, while left/right moves the character's POV (hence the crosshair moves as well).

And how can the crosshair always be at the center of the screen no matter where you are aiming, if its the crosshair that determines *where* you are aiming - and what you will hit (at the center of the crosshair) when you do fire?

Thanks for making this issue even more confusing.

Until you posted, I was under the impression that the general consensus was that moving the mouse up/down, should shift the POV *and* the crosshair. This way, if you point up, you can fire at the sky (which you will also be looking at) - and if you point down, you would be firing at the ground. All subject to range restrictions (e.g. you can't look directly straight up) of course.

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I think the movement in Quake3Arena is really good. The crosshair is always in the middle and I can actually jump over someone and shoot at his or her head as I'm leaping over him/her (his/her head is in the middle of my screen, as is the crosshair, while I am looking down at him).

What sucks in Q3A though is that I can't fly a helicopter, get shot down and crash into the water, jump out, swim to a submarine that is nearby, torpedo an enemy destroyer so I can jump up on the carrier it was attacking and man the guns to shoot down a few enemy planes so I can get in a jet, take off and continue my mission.

Personally, I like the "crosshair in the middle" gig and if the body animation doesn't show me staring at my feet when I am, it doesn't bother me really.... though I do confess in UC, I would want that precision control (that Q3A lacks) so I can shoot from a distance whilst still running without throwing up.

2¢

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quote:


Originally posted by Blerm:

I think the movement in Quake3Arena is really good. The crosshair is always in the middle and I can actually jump over someone and shoot at his or her head as I'm leaping over him/her (his/her head is in the middle of my screen, as is the crosshair, while I am looking down at him).


Funny you should mention this Blerm, because thats what I was just mulling over and thinking would be the best solution probably.

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i think the issue here is communication, i get the feeling S.C. is already thinking of doing what we have all been screaming about but he doesn't use layan's terms to describe it so you guys get freaked out and make more quake analogies.

which by the way, i'm sure S.C. knows what you're talking about when you say "the standard for fps games" you've just got to realize that this game has about a million years of simulation thinking behind it so S.C. is arguing from a completely different perspective.

i think our culture is about due to upgrade it's standard form of communication to telepathy, i swear it takes me forever to get an idea across in words, look at this post for instance, i've been typing it since i registered for the forums 2 years ago.

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Well.....I think that a solution possible would be the one I saw in OPERATION FLASHPOINT from CODEMASTERS.... the game uses more than one kind of view for the first person shooting and aiming; the default view is crosshair centered but with a circle in the center where you could move your crosshair freely without moving the POW (so if you move slightly your crosshair such as for the animation movement, your pow will not be affected and the crosshair will remain almost stable to make your shots almost accurate); se second kind is a simulation of what you would see when aiming through the aiming sight and it's the one used to fire with precision, in this mode the crosshair move automatically the pow (as for other FPS games like HALF LIFE, QUAKE ecc.) and the crosshair is moved by the animation and bounces when firing due to the recoil....

That's a good solution to be simple and intuitive in the controls but saving a part of the realism...

Sorry if I can't be much clear but I'm not english speaking....I've done almost my best...

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Look, I was simply correcting a mistake regarding my name. That is not petty.

And yes, I am quite aware that some people in the military think it's funny to call their underlings ladies, but I am not in the military and do not expect that kind of crap.

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quote:


Originally posted by Splad:

i think the issue here is communication, i get the feeling S.C. is already thinking of doing what we have all been screaming about but he doesn't use layan's terms to describe it so you guys get freaked out and make more quake analogies.

which by the way, i'm sure S.C. knows what you're talking about when you say "the standard for fps games" you've just got to realize that this game has about a million years of simulation thinking behind it so S.C. is arguing from a completely different perspective.

i think our culture is about due to upgrade it's standard form of communication to telepathy, i swear it takes me forever to get an idea across in words, look at this post for instance, i've been typing it since i registered for the forums 2 years ago.


LOL!!! Man, that was funny. But no, you're absolutely right. I went back and read the posts and the confusion is really down to communication and perspective.

Fact is, I'm happy with the current system, but some folks aren't. Even though we are on a feature freeze right now, I opened this discussion in order to see if I could exactly understand what it is people are asking for and why. Changing this is about an hours work but it is still an hour of not doing something else, pissing around with something that actually works (and which was not part of my design schedule for revision) etc etc. So, before I made a final decision, I opened this thread so that I could better understand the issue. Heh, what was I thinking?

quote:


Originally posted by dennymala:

Well.....I think that a solution possible would be the one I saw in OPERATION FLASHPOINT from CODEMASTERS.... the game uses more than one kind of view for the first person shooting and aiming; the default view is crosshair centered but with a circle in the center where you could move your crosshair freely without moving the POW (so if you move slightly your crosshair such as for the animation movement, your pow will not be affected and the crosshair will remain almost stable to make your shots almost accurate);


Yeah, and thats what is currently in BCM/G actually and this was my thinking behind it.

The fact is, most fps games render the gun as a separate entity from the character mesh. So, in actual fact, it can be handled independently of the character - hence nothing you do is affected by the animation (e.g. idle pose). In my engine, the attachments (to the bone) are part of the character and rendered/handled in one pass (as if they are the same entity). So if the character mesh is moving (i.e. chest heaving while breathing during idle), this affects the entire mesh - especially the bones to which the weapon model is attached.

Anyway, I think I'm gonna play it safe and go the Q3A route. It makes no difference from my perspective because either method (old or new) works just fine for me and I'm used to both.

quote:


Originally posted by Huwie:

Look, I was simply correcting a mistake regarding my name. That is
not
petty.

And yes, I am quite aware that some people in the military think it's funny to call their underlings ladies, but I am not in the military and do not expect that kind of crap.


No, YOU look Howie, knock it off!!

You are on a website forum where anyone can make a mistake in someone's alias. Big frigging deal. You're just nitpicking. Even you refered to yourself as Huw in your VERY FIRST post on the forum.

You are on a website forum for a military game - and we've had a long standing tradition of treating this site like a military installation (as if the nature of the game wasn't a clue already).

If you don't like it, get hell OFF my goddamn site!!! And you're one step away from making me help you make this move.

[ 10-22-2003, 07:17 AM: Message edited by: Supreme Cmdr ]

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quote:


Originally posted by Supreme Cmdr:

quote:

Originally posted by dennymala:

Well.....I think that a solution possible would be the one I saw in OPERATION FLASHPOINT from CODEMASTERS.... the game uses more than one kind of view for the first person shooting and aiming; the default view is crosshair centered but with a circle in the center where you could move your crosshair freely without moving the POW (so if you move slightly your crosshair such as for the animation movement, your pow will not be affected and the crosshair will remain almost stable to make your shots almost accurate);


Yeah, and thats what is currently in BCM/G actually and this was my thinking behind it.

The fact is, most fps games render the gun as a separate entity from the character mesh. So, in actual fact, it can be handled independently of the character - hence nothing you do is affected by the animation (e.g. idle pose). In my engine, the attachments (to the bone) are part of the character and rendered/handled in one pass (as if they are the same entity). So if the character mesh is moving (i.e. chest heaving while breathing during idle), this affects the entire mesh - especially the bones to which the weapon model is attached.

Anyway, I think I'm gonna play it safe and go the Q3A route. It makes no difference from my perspective because either method (old or new) works just fine for me and I'm used to both.

[/QB]


Well let me see if I understand well.... so even if the crosshair will for some strange reason be left still in the center (due to alternate conceipt of the engine), the weapon and so the aim will be moved due to the breathing animation that move the chest and the arm's bones that hold the rifle.... right..?

Well pretty realistic....you're a sort of LEONARDO DA VINCI in your approach to problems boss!!!

However if I understand what the Q3A way is we'll be able to move the crosshair with the mouse and so direct our character, unless activate the mouselook function...right?

Will us be allowed to target the ground between our feet or the sky above us..?

C YA...(salute) [just to keep military...]... [you definitely have to insert a saluting GRAEMLINS...]

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