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Epsilon 5 Court Martial


Supreme Cmdr
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OK, so he's been around for almost two years and has succeeded in being involved in one controversy or another.

Fact is, recent events have caused some concern and several people have contacted me and expressed their opinion that, this time, he should be banned from the community.

HOWEVER, considering that I have other opinions from people who don't think banning him is warranted, I decided to conduct this poll. It will run for the next 24-hrs and I will base my final decision on the outcome.

As you know, poll votes are 100% anonymous, so, there is no reason to worry about reprisals based on your vote. Just remember that, at the end of the day, I have veto power.

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OK, I am going public with my opinion. I am not going to sit by quietly as I have been.

I sent the SC a private message regarding this and I will say it here as well. EP5 has had enough chances, he has dug his own hole, he should lie in it.

He is not trustworthy, he is not mature enough to know what he should or should not say. As a LONG standing member of this community, he should know better and does NOT deserve a 2nd chance as far as I am concerned.

He has been given PLENTY of chances, and he continues to blow it. 3 strikes, YOU'RE OUTTA THERE, end of story.

Sorry EP5, but I voted for banning your butt, and I'd vote again the same way if given the opportunity. You are not mature enough to know what and what not to say, I am not going to babysit you and I don't believe anyone else should have to either. I have stood up for you and stood up for you and stood up for you, and you CONTINUE to pull stupid SH#$ that you know better about.

You should be banned, FOREVER as far as I am concerned. Maybe the SC will take pity on you, but I WON'T!! If you are NOT banned outright, you better know that I will be keeping a very close eye on you, and if you step over that line by a millimeter, YOU'RE TOAST!!!

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Ok, this one has been tough. Again. I voted for him to be given one last chance for the simple reason that I know him very well, and despite that fact that he been a controversial figure for just about as long as I've known him, deep down I know he's no troll.

He is a huge fan of the series, a dedicated community member and has badgered me relentlessly about RP matters, Fleet specifics, recruitment strategies etc. 90% of our discussions are BC related. Every time I pop on ICQ he's there, banging on about Battlecruiser this, Battlecruiser that. He wants to know what else he can do to better serve the fleet. He wants to know if I can pick out a graphical glitch in a captured image. He sends me chapter upon chapter of RP dialogue and asks me to look over it, checking for inconcistencies, errors of judgement, misinterpretations etc.

Yes, he's voiced a few things many of us may have thought over the last few months. That was very poor judgement on his behalf. He should know better by now that having an opinion is opne thing, but voicing it in a place where detractors are everywhere shows a distinct lack of common sense. We have spoken of this many times in the past. I've had numerous discussions with Greg and other senior fleet members about his behaviour.

During his last "episode", he was stripped of his position, rank and command status. He was sent back to the academy and left there to regain our trust and think about what he has done.

Well, for a long time he kept his nose clean and came back a better person for it. Sadly it looks like he's fallen off the wagon. *sigh*

He's not a bad person by any means. He's not a detractor, he loves the game, the community and he gets very upset when things like this happen. He's just young and lacks the common sense to know when enough is enough. Some people screw up in the office, on the street, back at home - he does it here. Why? Because this palce is every bit as important to him as the home, or the office.

He made a boo boo. He will be punished - but outright banning isn't the way to do it. I got my own way of taking care of this problem If the community will let me.

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quote:


Originally posted by WarpCore:

Well, posting that mensah stuff on Ve3d was uncalled for.


I gave him permission (on IRC) to do so because I have no intentions of posting on there. That idiot boobits still can't prove that he has a source-level mod for BCM, so, in normal fashion, is posting the same old regurgitate rubbish. Thats what happens when you spoon feed a troll with libelous propaganda. Free thinkers form their own opinions.

And enough with the naming calling, OK? Remember, regardless of anything, #1 stance on this forum should be respect for others.

btw, great posts Jaguar/Blades. This is EXACTLY why I setup the poll because those who contacted me, made strong cases in favor or and against banning action. These posts are an example of what I'm talking about and why I didn't take unilateral action. I'm not going to name others who contacted me, they can do that by themselves if they so choose.

FWIW, I voted neutral on banning him for the same reasons Blades and Jaguar pointed out. If you know anything about me, you'll know why. And I have several emails similar to Jaguar's and Blade's. Even Silk was on IRC saying almost verbatim what Blades is saying. The point is that some people are more tolerant than others.

As I've said before, I'm not pissed (or we won't be having this discussion) - just concerned about who I have in my midst and whether that person can be trusted or not. When you have a place like this, you never want to be in a situation where you question the loyalty of the people around you. It is disheartening to say the least - and I for one, don't like that feeling. At all.

I work VERY VERY hard for the people who rely on me; and while I don't always make decisions which are ok by a lot of people, nevertheless, I make decisions because as a leader, I'm expected to. I think the IRC chat log pretty much sums it all up I guess.

[ 07-24-2002, 08:29 AM: Message edited by: Supreme Cmdr ]

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I'm going to have to abstain from voting because it sounds like there is more to it than just the log (that was expressed by some of the Commanders.) Politically, as a Cadet, it wouldn't make sense to vote without at least a background to back the vote up.

I agree there is a problem (I can tell that from the logs) but, without more information, I don't feel qualified to vote on this issue as an effective juror.

(For the record, I was ordered by my Commanders to read posts here and at Fleet HQ, and post on issues presented. If out of bounds on this, my extreme apologies...)

I've know Cmdr EP5 only for about a week, but he seems dedicated to BC and the Community from what I can tell. Other than that, I don't know.

Anyway, I'm remaining in my respective boxer's neutral corner....

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quote:


Originally posted by DraconisRex:

I'm going to have to abstain from voting because it sounds like there is more to it than just the log (that was expressed by some of the Commanders.) Politically, as a Cadet, it wouldn't make sense to vote without at least a background to back the vote up.

I agree there is a problem (I can tell that from the logs) but, without more information, I don't feel qualified to vote on this issue as an effective juror.


uhm, isn't that what the neutral vote choice is for?

[ 07-24-2002, 11:20 AM: Message edited by: Supreme Cmdr ]

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quote:

Even Silk was on IRC saying almost verbatim what Blades is saying. The point is that some people are more tolerant than others.

That's this $iLk in case you were wondering. After reading Blade's post was gonna reply with pretty much what the SC summed up.

I voted in favor of giving Epsilon 5 one LAST chance. From a couple days after I joined the forums here I had started talking to EP5 online, first in Active Worlds (Where EP5 resurrected the Commander's Village and created huge monuments to BCM months before release), and then on MSN messenger, IRC, etc. He spent literally hours of his time working on contributions to the fleet, whether RP, AW related, or tactics with Orion Fleet, he threw his heart into the anticipation of when it would all come to fruition.

Seeing how much effort he put into it, I'm not surprised that he had somewhat of a burnout after the dust settled. When AW started charging a fee, our once bustling community dwindled to about 3 members on Active Worlds. With the release of BCM we had a huge influx of people, followed by the (normal) lack of continued activity.

I can't say I don't understand EP5 with his hopes built up from since a year before the game came out falling once the excitement died down after the release. (most of us were too busy playing to post immediately after release ).

On the one hand you have a valuable member of the community, one of the most dedicated and respected longstanding members of the community.

On the other hand he has made grave mistakes in the past as well. The dilemma here isn't simply that a community member was in league with Trolls/Detractors.

The dilemma is that this is a well known, respected member of the community who was a little too outspoken when it came to his feelings, and where he chose to express those feelings.

Do I believe that Epsilon 5 should recieve some kind of punishment, yes.

Do I believe he should be outright banned? Absolutely not.

Doing what's best given his track record is a tough call in some ways. While I would say that his positive contributions to this community outweigh the negative contributions, his latest venture was a little much.

Epsilon 5 spoke his mind, that is not really the issue. I hope he understands now that it isn't that which got him in trouble, it was how he chose to go about speaking his mind - or rather speaking for other people's minds.

I say with the utmost confidence that Epsilon 5 can make amends for what he has done. This community is important to him, and while he did what he did with the best of intentions, I am sure he realizes that it was a mistake.

For Epsilon 5, I hope you understand that voicing an opinion is not what this is about. If you voice your opinion in the appropriate setting I would say that it is encouraged if made in the proper manner.

If you want to be a part of this community (and I know you do), realize that you represent this community and while some of us may selfishly make comments such as yours in private, we all realize that they are in fact selfish. I'm sure there isn't a one of us here who didn't give pause at the release date at EBGames falling further back, because tremendous pressure was put upon the SC with all the darn "COUNTDOWN" threads and such. If we had been more patient, perhaps he wouldn't have felt forced to go ahead and push something out for us just so we'd shut up . MP is tentatively scheduled I would assume to somewhat coincide with BCM Gold. I'm sure that the SC finds it more important to squash the bugs associated with the gold version so that it is flawless when the component of MP is joined with BCM standard.

I saw a thread yesterday about Civilization III taking a year and a half to come out with MP. The SC is on a much more limited budget, but plans to have it out in less time. He's already said it won't be perfect at first, but the thing is he keeps working at it. He keeps working even after he could have called it a day with the release of BCM and the 1st post release patch.

Epsilon 5, and everyone else, we should hold our composure and be patient with the MP component so that it doesn't come out less than stellar because we hounded the SC for it. I'm chomping at the bits to blow up some of you bunnies and Gammulans out of the stars, and it's hard to wait.

I believe that Epsilon 5 should be given the chance, and I defer to Blade's proposal of punishment, concurrent with whatever you have in mind Supreme Commander. And Epsilon 5, for Pete's sake, if you have to hang out with detractors, discuss something other than Battlecruiser .

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Firstly, I want to focus on just one facet of this issue as representative of the whole.

I think Blades and Silk nailed the situation on the head. The opinions/frustrations that EP5 expressed are likely held/experienced by most of us. I'm frustrated that MP isn't out yet and I'm fairly sure that Derek probably is too but I'm also Smart enough to realize that the reason it's not out is that it's not ready yet and I don't want to have to deal with a half baked option and Derek doesn't want to support a half baked option.

Had EP5 expressed those opinions here, he would have got something along the lines of "Yep, we're frustrated too but we also understand the need for delay." Instead his expression of his opinions only served to reinforce the negative opinions (hatred really) of known detractors. The first is commiseration and the second is rabble rousing, intentional or not.

The question really is this: Is it better for the community that EP5 be banned or is it better for the community that he be thrown in the brig, among us but under watch as it were.

The first keeps the high standards we like around here but is also a great way to create another malcontent. The second is in keeping with a desire to be as tolerant as possible without thowing open the doors to trolls.

Weighing both options, I vote for not banning him because that seems to best serve the community. Afterall, if keeping him around turns out to be a bad idea, such a mistake can immediately be remedied, but unbanning someone is not nearly as easy.

Let me reiterate, EP5 your opinions aren't the problem but what you did with them and, potentially, why.

[ 07-24-2002, 01:21 PM: Message edited by: Tyrn ]

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I agree with Tyrn. Banning someone is a final, nearly irrevocable measure. I've known E5 on a personal level for some time, and given his dedication to Battlecrusier, I don't think banning is the right way to go about this. Many people who have inhabited these boards in the past have begun getting tired of waiting for mp, BCM, etc., as their RL issues (not to mention other games ), have become more dominant. This has led to a sort of high and low tide of activity.

In this current state of low activity, only the most dedicated members are still posting on a regular basis. It is my belief that we can ill-afford to just chuck someone to the wind that is, in my opinion, one of the most active people on this forum (especially among those who are not admins/mods).

It is a sign of true strength that SC has agreed to having a vote/discussion on this, and other community-related issuses that are bound to pop up in the future. As I said, while it is my personal opinion that E5 should stay (albeit with some punishment/restriction), if SC or others decide otherwise, I will respect and support that decision.

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quote:


Originally posted by Urza:

I agree with Tyrn. Banning someone is a final, nearly irrevocable measure.


And I quite agree in this regard. Which is why I didn't make that unilateral decision; but instead, well, came up with this method of dealing with it.

As I've said before, I don't believe that he is a troll, nor disloyal. If he is, he sure as heck would make one hulluva double-agent (I told him this on IRC btw). For the Insurgents I suppose. Nevertheless, his actions, again, cause concern - which I, like others, have expressed.

Quite frankly, I hate this whole affair. With a passion.

[ 07-24-2002, 02:34 PM: Message edited by: Supreme Cmdr ]

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Well, whatever decision you make, I will back you up SC. Myself, I am mellowing a bit, Blades and $ilk both brought up some very good points.

He is a long time member, but again, because of that very fact MORE should be expected from him, not less. I will go with whatever you decide, but EP5, my eye is on you. Behave please, you know what is expected, use common sense, which I think is something that you are lacking, time to get some.

This whole episode has been ugly, I guess that I am old enought to have the patience necessary to wait for the good stuff.

I will wait very patiently and without *****ing, because I know that in the end it will be the best, and that is what I will get.

SO ALL OF YOU, JUST CHILL OUT!!!!

As the SC says, it'll be ready when it's ready, and right now, it ain't ready!!

[ 07-24-2002, 04:01 PM: Message edited by: Jaguar ]

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quote:

Originally posted by Supreme Cmdr:

quote:

Originally posted by DraconisRex:

I'm going to have to abstain from voting because it sounds like there is more to it than just the log (that was expressed by some of the Commanders.) Politically, as a Cadet, it wouldn't make sense to vote without at least a background to back the vote up.

I agree there is a problem (I can tell that from the logs) but, without more information, I don't feel qualified to vote on this issue as an effective juror.


uhm, isn't that what the neutral vote choice is for?


Probably, but I'm more used to Guilty/Not Guilty verdicts...
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Thanks boss.

As per our conversations earlier in the day, I have decided upon the following course of action regarding Epsilon 5 which has been approved and sanctioned by the SC.

Epsilon 5, from the moment forth has been expelled from the Orion Fleet. Furthermore, for a period lasting no less than 90 days he is prohibited from reinlisting in ANY sanctioned Fleet or Organisation. Under no circumstances will any fleet enlist Epsilon 5 in public or private, and any such moves to recruit him will be subject to extreme measures against the offending party and Fleet.

He is also banned from this and the BCC forums for a period of no less than 30 days, and will be placed under close scrutiny for the 60 days following this for any further signs "unacceptable" behaviour.

If after this time it is determined that he has learned his lesson he will be free to reinlist in any Fleet/Organisation he desires with no penalty to those who recruit him.

Should he veer from this course of action in any way, shape or form he will be banned from this and the BCC forum forever and without possability of reprieve.

This is his last chance here, ever. Everyone should take stock of what has happened here these last few days and see that a repeat does not occure. You know the rules, you know the routine. If you veer from it, you know where you could end up.

Dont make the same mistakes. Epsilon 5 is an exception in this instance only - and only then because of his previous good standing with the community. Further deviations by any community member will be met with the harshest sanctions.

That is all.

[ 07-24-2002, 06:08 PM: Message edited by: Blades ]

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quote:


Originally posted by Blades:

He is also banned from this and the BCC forums for a period of no less than 30 days, and will be placed under close scrutiny for the 60 days following this for any further signs "unacceptable" behaviour.


Correction. His posting rights will be restricted, but he will not be banned.

I will restrict his posting rights later tonite.

What do we do about IRC? Do we prevent him from posting there too? Let me know what you decide.

My vote on that aspect is not to ban him from the channel, but its your call.

*sigh*

I'm really sad about this

Anyway, its all for the best. All I need now to perk me up is for one n00b to step outta line so I can outright ban 'im. No trial. No tribunal. No voting

[ 07-24-2002, 06:27 PM: Message edited by: Supreme Cmdr ]

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If you can ban him from the IRC server, then I say ban him for the same 30 day period. If he's to be restricted rather than banned, then he shouldn't be able to interact on official BC forums/channels whatsoever. Otherwise it's just a redirection of energies away from one public place to another - which isnt a strong enough deterant IMHO.

As always, your call is final but this is my recomendation.

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Lets try to avoid bandwagon jumping here Warpcore. He's not a bad guy, so he doesnt deserve to be flamed by people that dont know him. The powers that be have this well in hand, and we'll do the watching.

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Blades, don't get me wrong. I am not flaming him by any means. Trust me on that one ok? I know he is a good guy, he has helped me on several occasions. I used to look for him to ask him questions when I got stuck on some planet somewhere and couldn't figure out how to get off. (lol!) One of the first thing I remember when I signed up for this forum was the number of stars under his name. Then I noticed sometime later that they were gone. Disappointing.

I am not jumping on any bandwagon, I was under the impression that he had turned turncoat and joined the detractors. I have very little patience with them. I suppose time will tell if this is really the case. I hope it isn't. Knowing what I know now, I may have voted differently. Keep in mind that you musn't jump to conclusions as well. People DO change. I think time will be Epsilon's best friend here, or his worst enemy. It is really up to him. Hope I cleared at least some of this up.

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