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Trading, but what?, from where?, and where to?


Rico Jansen
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I wrote a similar tip like this one about a year back. ("My BC3k-rules of acquisition" I believe) But because the message board got too big, alot of the old topics were removed. Unfortunately some good ones too. As this one was considered too at the time. Many commanders considered this very insightfull information in the trading process. So, by popular demand, my rant again.

Well, I'm not going to tell you where to get what, and where to dump it. Well, not entirely. I'm just going to explain the mechanism of the bc3k universe on trading. "What", as in classes of items. "From where, and where to", as in places with the right price levels. This way you can predict prices on the numerous stations in the universe. REMEMBER, this tip or explanation is only valid for Battlecruiser 3000AD v2.09. Earlier versions might work the same, but they are not supported anymore. v2.09 is the last.

The prices to buy and sell are not fixed (they change over time) and can differ across the entire known BC-universe. Trading is possible at starstations (by BC or SH) around planets/moons and starbases (by SH or ATV) on planets. The prices are determined by the economy on the planet/moon. More precise, prices are dependand on the inflation level and technology class of the economy on the planet/moon. Inflation and production will be the same for, a starbase on, and a starstation in orbit around the planet/moon. Also, there is no difference in buy and sell prices. You will not loose money if you somehow bought too much of an item.

For those who don't know what trading is, it's a way to make more money. You start out with a bit of money. Buy things at a place that has low prices. Go to a place with higher prices and find someone that will buy your goods (or you will sell it to him) for a higher price than what you bought them for. If that happend you made profit. The difference between your sell- and buy-price. Are you getting rich this way? Well, that depends on the costs you had to make to get the procedure going. Fuel costs, craft maintenance, protection against raiders, yada yada yada. You probably didn't have to make those costs, so you'll get to keep that money. And so you get rich(er) quicker. If your costs are bigger than your profit, then you should look for a different trade-route. But as I said, you probably won't have (operating)costs.

So, all you need is a bit of starting money and a means to transport your goods. I am going to asume you have both.

So, what are those prices? Well, let's look at something else first. There are 2 specific appendices to the manual, 'Appendix S Trade database', and 'Appendix E Galactic carthography chart' that are important for this subject. They should have come with your game. If not, download the whole package of (updated) appendices and the (updated) manual from the downloads page on the site. ( http://www.3000ad.com/downloads I would guess)

Appendix S has a number of tables showing all the trade-able items in the BC-universe. From minerals to spareparts, from weapons to general items. It doesn't matter. It applies to all ofcourse. It shows the item's name, (standard) price, storage area, technology class, cargo displacement (or volume), and a few things more that don't concern us now. ... So, that's the item's buy price I see? ... No, it's the standard price of the item. Think of it as it's value compared to other items. Or the average price among all stations/bases in the universe. This is useful in comparing prices at stations that have different inflation and/or are of different technology classes.

Appendix E shows all the planets and moons available in the BC-universe. It shows the planet/moon's name, some values that don't concern now, the name of the starstation and/or starbase (if available), the technology level, technology class, inflation, and 2 other colums that don't concern now. The technology level affects the availability of items. It doesn't affect prices. The technology class is an important factor in determining prices, it can be AD(vanced), H(igh)T(ech), AG(riculture), M(i)N(erals), RO(botics), or general (without any 2-character code). It means which kind of products the economy specialised in. And as a result, indicates which kind of items the economy likes to sell and which it likes to buy. The inflation indicates the price versus the value of an item. A high inflation results in a high price for a certain item. It has the biggest effect on prices.

The inflation collumn shows values between 0 and 5. The number indicates prices are 10% higher than standard price for every unit of inflation. So 0 means prices are 0% higher, 1 means 10% higher (so 110% of standard price) and so on until 150% of standard price for inflation "5".

The technology class indicates which items the economy likes to sell. As it is specialized into those kinds of products and likes to export. If it is specialized, it wont have enough industry for items of the other classes to support in it's own needs. And so it will want to import those kinds. So, the economy will lower the prices of their technology class, and increase the price of the other classes. The increase or decrease in price is 10% of the standard price. This is totally independant from inflation. (There are items that don't belong to a specific class, the general class if you will. They will cost more anyway. They won't be on 'sale'.)

The game does not rate inflation in units of 10% like the appendix does. The info page of TRADCOM rates the inflation level per 1%. As inflation will change over time, the appendix E will not be of much use at later dates in the bc-universe. Expect your trade routes to decline. You will have to find different routes. I have a 3 week (bc-time) old game where GalcomHQ lost it's inflation free nature and is at 20%, and Genesis is at 32%.

Prices are determined by summation of the effects of inflation and technology class on the standard price.

So the price is:

the standard price (let's call it STDP for short),

plus the additional inflation (0..5 * 10% or the TRADCOM infl. value)*STDP,

plus the class price reduc./inc. (-10%*STDP for specialty,

+10%*STDP for non-specialty)

Or in equation form: (sorry, I love math)

price_of_station's_specialty= STDP * (100% + inflation_level*10% - 10% )

price_of_station's_non-specialty= STDP * (100% + inflation_level*10% + 10% )

Examples:

GalcomHQ: techn. class : AD

inflation : 0 (or 0%) (atleast at 04/04/3000)

So for the following items of different class the prices are:

itemclassstandard price (STDP)actual pricecomment
RADINEAD
2.500
2.250
(100%+0%-10%); no inflation, specialty
ATV_TACSCANHT
15.000
16.500
(100%+0%+10%); no inflation, non-specialty
FERMIUMMN
3.000
3.000
(100%+0%+10%); no inflation, non-specialty
DROIDSRO
3.500

3.850
(100%+0%+10%); no inflation, non-specialtyNUTRIPAKAG
1.000
1.100
(100%+0%+10%); no inflation, non-specialtyCOMBATKIT--
5.000
5.500
(100%+0%+10%); no inflation, non-specialty

Genesis: techn. class : HT

inflation : 1 (or 10%) (atleast at 04/04/3000)

So for the following items of different class the prices are:

itemclassstandard price (STDP)actual pricecomment
RADINEAD
2.500
3000
(100%+10%+10%); 10% inflation, non-specialty
ATV_TACSCANHT
15.000
15.000
(100%+10%-10%); 10% inflation, specialty
FERMIUMMN
3.000
3.600
(100%+10%+10%); 10% inflation, non-specialty
DROIDSRO
3.500
4.200
(100%+10%+10%); 10% inflation, non-specialty
NUTRIPAKAG
1.000
1.200
(100%+10%+10%); 10% inflation, non-specialty
COMBATKIT--
5.000
6.000
(100%+10%+10%); 10% inflation, non-specialty

As you can see you can make money by for example buying AD items at GalcomHQ (Earth) for 90% of the standard price, go to Genesis (Moon) and sell your AD items for 120% of the standard price. This way you have made a profit of 30% of the standard price (per item). This is one third of the money you started with. If you want to go back to GalcomHQ and are smart enough, you will buy HT items and sell them at GalcomHQ. This run you get 110% of the STDP (per item) while you payed for 100% of the STDP. 10% profit. Now you got 1.43 times the money you started with before buying at GalcomHQ (1.3*1.1=1.43).

I'm not saying this is the best trade route. Not by far. It's just one, and close to home. Just one to show you the way it works.

------------------

Cmdr. Rico Jansen

GCV de Ruyter, Genesis (Moon)

16 Squadron Leader - Prime Fleet, Gamma Wing, 1st Squadron

[This message has been edited by Rico Jansen (edited 09-30-2000).]

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Yep, even old timers can learn a thing or two. I knows the basics of economics - buy low sell high biggrin.gif but ye have clarified theBC3K economy fer me Rico - Tx cool.gif

TTFN

BTW - The Deflector Arrays have the best profitto cargo unit ratio IMO.

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Thanks guys,

I'm quite proud of it myself. Only it's pretty lengthy. I guess I like to write. smile.gif

But you're right Gallion. That was something I forgot I think. But maybe it's also a different topic, I don't know. Anyway, Deflector arrays are the best items to make money with. I remember some lengthy disscusions I had with some people (even bc3k-pros) trying to convince them that OTS' aren't the most efficient items. (Bugnors where supposed to be the best right? According to some)

For those who still disagree, imagine filling up your SH's cargobay with the OTS' and count how much money it would have cost you. It takes 80 Bugnors to fill up your SH (cargo displ.=25). Times the STDP of 5 Mcreds per Bug, you've got 400 Mcreds radiating in your SH. ... But, if you filled it with Deflector Arrays, you would have a 1000 arrays in your shuttle (cargo displ.=2). Times the STDP of 500 Kcreds per array, you end up with 500 Mcreds 'arraying' in your shuttle. 25% more value sitting in your shuttle. Now, multiply that by your profit margin! biggrin.gif

Rico

[This message has been edited by Rico Jansen (edited 09-30-2000).]

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quote:

For those who still disagree, imagine filling up your SH's cargobay with the OTS' and count how much money it would have cost you.

until you have the money to fill that cargo bay up I still say the various OTS's are quicker to buy. The profit margin is the same. biggrin.gif"><P>Don------------------

Vice Admiral Chavik

ICV Phoenix, Sygan Starstation (Sygan)

Fleet Leader - Balor Fleet

Official BC3K Tester

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true, Deflector arrays are efficient transport wise. Less hauling. You don't get more value out of it than what you put into it. It's just a higher 'buckdensity'. Deflector Arrays don't multiply inside the shuttle. [G]

------------------

Cmdr. Rico Jansen

GCV de Ruyter, Genesis (Moon)

16 Squadron Leader - Prime Fleet, Gamma Wing, 1st Squadron

[This message has been edited by Rico Jansen (edited 10-01-2000).]

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Well, the highest 'buckdensity' (and greatest hassle) is to fill your BC's fuel tanks and almost empty them at the expensive place, since that takes up zero cargospace whatsoever, but it's a big expensive hassle to send your BC on a trading run (and a long click and hold to fill & empty those tanks) when you can use your shuttles for trading deflector arrays/ whatever else, and use your BC for what it was designed to do- blow stu- I mean protect the weak and stand up to the evil aggressor. smile.gif

------------------

Cmdr. Ben Zwycky

GCV Svoboda, ISSHQ (Saturn)

Centauri Flight Group Leader, Defence Wing - ISS Fleet

email:[email protected]

ICQ:72897748

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I meant with 'buckdensity' exactly what Gallion said, (standard)price/cargo displacement. And since Radine only has a 'buckdensity' of 2500/1 (creds/cdisp), I can't agree with you. As apposed to Defl. arrays having 25000 cred/cdisp. I do agree that it's a big fuel tank and that you can store milions of credits in there to make profit with (as they are also AD items, and guess what who has the lowest buy price in Sol). But it doesn't have the most 'value per square(or qubed) foot'.

------------------

Cmdr. Rico Jansen

GCV de Ruyter, Genesis (Moon)

16 Squadron Leader - Prime Fleet, Gamma Wing, 1st Squadron

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Of course, a "dirty trick" (although it's legal, it is "gamey") is to go to a debris field and hunt down cargo that contains the upgrades that you want. If you don't find the items that you want, switch to Tacops and then back to the bridge. The cargo containers will be randomly regenerated. I picked up my maximum upgrade items in all categories except the Trellis this way.

Then bring your shuttle back, start your engineers on replacing the equipment, dock at Galcom, and let them finish the job.

Total time: half an hour (maybe). Total cost: 0.

I say that it is legal because it uses no playmods, cheats or anything else -- only what's in the game. I say that it's "gamey" because things were obviously not meant to be this way. Cargo containers don't just materialize and de-materialize like this. This is a fluke in the programming that tried to randomly generate the contents of debris fields. The trouble is that it re-generates the field every time you switch out of bridge mode and then back in.

BTW, after trying this a couple of dozen times, the asteroids starting zooming in and out every few seconds. Very curious.

I guess you could say that debris fields are where black market trading takes place. Traders dump their cargo there and others pick it up. You don't see traders going in and out (this probably wasn't the original intent), but you could probably surmise that this is what is going on).

[This message has been edited by Steve Schacher (edited 10-01-2000).]

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Ehm... it's a great tip, especially if you get get almost all your ships upgrades this way. (I know, I got alot of ugrades too some time ago this way, but I allready had the upgrades bought) But shouldn't this tip/trick deserve it's own thread? I mean, it's not really about trading. Just about acquirering items at not cost. This makes searching a bit difficult.

But those are my 0.02 creds,

------------------

Cmdr. Rico Jansen

GCV de Ruyter, Genesis (Moon)

16 Squadron Leader - Prime Fleet, Gamma Wing, 1st Squadron

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Impressive stuff Rico. Well done!

btw, the appendix only shows the seed values. They are subject to change over time - due to the dynamic nature of the game, as you have noticed.

Anyway, I can't wait see who decides they're going to be hauling goods around in an unarmed transport, just because it has a cargo bay capacity of 25x the typical BC.

Funny thing though, I've neglected to do anything about the economy model because I don't think it will be a major focus in BCM. I simply cannot see anyone focusing on a trading career with all the fun stuff there is to do in BCM. At any rate, if I find time, I will overhaul it. If not, thats what patches are for.

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Hmm, funny that you mention this, SC. Though I know that it's way to late for this. In the sense that it allready should have been noticed. Myself included, I should have reported this sooner but I was too much of a chicken. Don't know why, just was. If it is true what I think, maybe we can prevent this from slipping into BCM.

I did some checking at various (famous) stations in the game to see how much they coresponded to the appendix. I noticed in my game (upgraded v1.-uk to v2.09+mappak), that the info pages of the stations had some error-ishy values. Not the sort of thing I noticed the starbases having some time ago, with incredible inflation rates (in the 100s). But technology classes not showing up. Or in case of Majoris spacestation, it showed up with class "D" on the infopage, HT when comparing prices, and it should have been AD according to the appendix. This was found with a new profile of freeflight. I also noticed the appendix was not updated for Gazer's inflation reduction (at Pluto).

I don't know if anybody else has it too. Last sunday I asked Charles to verify my findings if he had the time. I haven't heard from him yet. I know this is not the place to start a bug reproduction. But while on the subject... I'll put my findings in a table so you can see what I'm talking about. If it is in-apropriate I'll remove it later.

Appendix NavchartInfo Tradcomfrom price comparison
stationclassinflationtech levelclassinflationtech levelclassinflationtech levelcomment
ISSAD20%2-20%-AD20%?tech. class/level missing
OrionAD10%3-10%0AD10%?class missing
GazerHT30%4HT10%2HT10%?appendix not upd.?
WraithHT20%3-20%0HT20%?class missing, not AD but HT?
MajorisAD40%2D10%2HT10%?class is just D ; inflation incorr.

I do not say that these are all. I didn't have the time to check for more. But most other 'old' stations (not added due to fleet additios) seem to be ok. But atleast Majors is 'the odd one out'.

-----------------

Cmdr. Rico Jansen

GCV de Ruyter, Genesis (Moon)

16 Squadron Leader - Prime Fleet, Gamma Wing, 1st Squadron

[This message has been edited by Rico Jansen (edited 10-03-2000).]

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Dunno what you're looking at, but if there is any discrepancy, its in the appendix.

As for the fleet stations I hacked in, the internal data is correct (or it will crash or all values will be the default as galcomhq) and the info obtained from the chart used for the info in Tradcom, may also be off. That info is not calculated. It is read directly off this table below.

The table below is for BC3K v2.0x only.

www.3000ad.com/gbs/navchart.txt

[This message has been edited by Supreme Cmdr (edited 10-08-2000).]

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I know what he's talking about -- I noticed it too and chalked it up to a corrupted savegame.

I was playing a game that was several game weeks old -- I was in the Gammulan Quadrant by then with Supreme Commander rank. After this original thread came up, I started paying attention to the trade values again (I had enough money that I started ignoring the economy).

I saw that the stations had tech classes of D instead of AD, T instead of HT, O instead of RO, etc. Furthermore, the technology discounts weren't adding up properly, probably because it was looking for HT and only finding T, and so on.

Just to convince myself that it was a corrupted save game, I started a brand new game and saw that station tech classes were back to AD, HT, etc (at least at Galcom, Gazer and ISS). Actually, what I did not do yet was go back to a save game, travel back to Galcom and verify that those stations are still AD, HT, etc. If they are, then something in the far-away stations is not aligning properly. If, on the other hand, Galcom is now D instead of AD, then something corrupted my savegame and the economy model is no longer working as designed. I will verify this and report back.

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Thats bogus and a wild goose chase at best.

The letters in the info text being missing, have no basis or relevance on the internal equations used for the calculations. Text is not used for calculations, numbers are. Its probably a display glitch or something linked to the fleet stations I hacked into the game.

Certainly nothing to do with the distance of the station. No such calculations are taken into account, nor performed.

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Maybe it's nothing. Perhaps I have a corrupt game or something. But I didn't have any crashes when docking or entering Tradcom. Or stuff looking like GalcomHQ. But I have this install for a very long time now. Without any problems, except for the inconsistancies stated above. It sure looks weird that I have these values. Next weekend I'll try a fresh install of the game. I'll try to reproduce it on a different computer with a different release (GTi 2.08 ->2.09) Hopefully I'll have them tomorrow.

Rico

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I ran my test last night by restoring a savegame and traveling back to Galcom. The info page at Galcom shows the tech class as AD.

With the station in Gammulan space showing as T instead of HT, I'm not seeing the 10% reduction in price. Every product has the same increase over base price, regardless of tech class.

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Hey, Rico:

Help me out here! I'm trying to corroborate your initial finding, but I feel the SC bearing down on me wink.gif

quote:

I should have reported this sooner but I was too much of a chicken. But technology classes not showing up. Or in case of Majoris spacestation, it showed up with class "D" on the infopage, HT when comparing prices, and it should have been AD according to the appendix.

The info page he referred to is in TRADCOM when docked at a station. Here is what I found from my savegame:

Station: Exin @ Kruger

Class Level from TRADCOM/INFO: D

Trade Class from appendix: AD

Current Inflation: 25%

Sampling of items

Craft Parts1 (Class AD)

Base Price: 25,000

Station Price: 33,750

% increase: 35%

Should be: 25,000 less 10% for AD (2,500) = 22,500 + 25% for inflation (6,250) = 28,750

Cotton (Class AG)

Base Price: 650

Station Price: 877

% increase: 35%

Should be: 650 + 10% for not AD (65) = 715 + 25% for inflation (162.5) = 877 which is correct

Copperware (no class)

Base Price: 100

Station Price: 135

% increase: 35% which is correct

Audio Disks (Class HT)

Base Price: 25,000

Station Price: 33,750

% increase: 35% which is correct

So, clearly something is happening to the item of the same class as the station. It should be reduced in price, but it isn't. Is it related to the fact that the TRADCOM/INFO screen isn't displaying the tech class properly in some cases? Or is my save game (and Rico's) corrupted somehow?

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Don't worry about the SC, Steve. If he thinks this is a wild goose chase, then that's ok. I only know what I saw (with a new fresh game) on one of my 2 game installs (2 different comps). And you somehow appear to have the same phenomena. I don't mind to go on a 'chase' eventually finding out the problem is something that happend overhere on my comp, and is not due to the code. I'm not saying yet that what I published above is 100% bug. I haven't been able to reproduce it myself yet. So I don't know what it is. It's only funny you seem to have it too. I don't know why others didn't say anything yet. Whether they had the same, or not[/]. I wouldn't mind their answer, be it positive or negative.

As I indicated above, I didn't have a chance to start up a game on my dorm's computer yet. So I can't say anything yet. But about your findings. I would like to know what game time we are talking about in your game profile. As far as I know, inflation (seed) values start in multiples of 10%. 25% is, to me, not from 04/04/3000 and probably days later. And apart from that, Kruger is in Valkerie teritory. I don't think you can dock there unless you captured it. But I haven't been there ever, so I don't know. I suggest you try a new game profile and see if you get anything different from the list the SC posted. (not much chance of a corrupted game when your game is minutes old, can it be?) And don't limit yourself to one station when you are searching for something fishy. Remember it has to be reproduceable.

I'll get back when I have something substancial to report.

Rico

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Steve,

  1. read the Appendix again

  2. read my chart above again

  3. tell us you managed to dock at Exin, assuming you didn't capture it. And if you were running a new game, I don't see how you could have captured it.

  4. take a look at your calculation for Craft Parts1 and tell me where you got the percentages you used, from.

Rico, lemme know if you find anything. I seriously doubt that you will. But, since you started this, am waiting for a conclusion.

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Yes, I did capture it. It is from a game that I've been playing for several real-time months (I have to wait until I get home to tell you the game-date).

I am starting a new game, but it will be a short while before I make it all the way back there.

I see what you mean regarding the price for CRAFT PARTS1 vs. the appendix. I got my price by moving the cursor over the BUY and SELL buttons in TRADCOM and writing down what I saw in the information at the bottom right of the screen. What I wrote down is way off from what is in the appendix. Curious...

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Yep, its way off alright. wink.gif

Anyway, I don't think the calculations are wrong. Its just that the first letter of the tech level is being truncated for some odd reason. Its only text and bears no relevance to the internal calculations. The good news is that I just left Eltin in BCM, and the tech level display is fine. So, I guess its a graphics glitch of sorts, in BC3K. Dunno.

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