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While I feel for the families of those lost in the chopper crash and last in combat we must remember that casualties are still very light in comparison to previous wars.

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I've been in support of the war from the getgo but I'm starting to wonder what we are accomplishing over there. It seems that they are just as fond of shooting themselves in the feet as shooting ours guys in the head

I say we leave and take all our money, support, protection with us. Let's see how much they appreciate being ruled by an oligarchy of terrorist organizations.

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quote:


I say we leave and take all our money, support, protection with us. Let's see how much they appreciate being ruled by an oligarchy of terrorist organizations.

IMHO, I disagree. If we do that, then we'll be sending the terrorists the message that all they have to do is bloody our (the United States) nose with casualties and we'll pull out. They win...we lose. Where will it end?

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Guest Remo Williams

I agree with Sho to pull out early on this would send the wrong message to the worldÔÇÖs terrorists. Now that itÔÇÖs started we have to show our resolve and see this mess through to the end; which hopefully will be close to what we envision for Iraq. A free people ruled by a democratic system of government.

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The problem has always been that there is politics involved... if something needs to be done it needs to be done, regardless of who benefits politically.

For right or wrong, we are involved now, and to pull out and leave them hanging would be wrong however you look at it. It is our mess, we have to clean it up... or else how can we truly feel justified?

I personally feel that WMD will probably not be found... and if they are it will not be in great quantities. The UN ran plenty of interference on that one.

But my feelings on the subject have always been... what right do we have to attack a sovereign nation without a clear and present danger to ourselves? The WMD issue and supporting terrorists were the biggest driving points... but no one is really willing to put the FACTS as they are in place.

The good news is that the everyday lives of the Iraqi people should be better in the long run. Their lives will no doubt be immeasurably better with the nice padding they get from the American taxpayer... which they will use to buy the flags that say "DOWN WITH USA"... isn't it sweet irony?

Bomb it all... screw the middle east... or at least take the leash off of Israel...

If it wasn't for us putting so much pressure on Israel, they would stretch to China by now.

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quote:

Originally posted by $iLk:

what right do we have to attack a sovereign nation without a clear and present danger to ourselves?

You are correct to a point with this. But it wasn't for the present danger we did this but the future one. Given time Saddam would have gone Nuclear. Remember Hitler. This country sat on their collective asses not wanting to get involved with this guy. If we had done something sooner with him (not just when there was a clear and present danger to ourselves) there would have been a hell of a lot lower deaths from ally casualties to the victims of the concentration camps.

quote:

Originally posted by $iLk:

I personally feel that WMD will probably not be found

Egads, you know how big Iraq is and how much desert there is. Those things could be hidden anywhere and the only way I can see for them to do a through search is comb the desert like they did in that wacky movie SPACE BALLS (remember that one).

quote:

Originally posted by $iLk:

The problem has always been that there is politics involved

and don't forget about religion too. This plays a very big part on what goes over there. We see it for political reasons but they see it as religious. Look at Saddam, this guy I'm sure doesn't/didn't have a religious bone in his body but when we attacked he called on all arabs to help in his defense in the name of allah calling for a jihad. I mean the guy couldn't just say "Can you help me out fellow arabs from these bullies I'm a nice guy and my politics are humanitary" you think they would have believed him with that!? Nooo so he played the religious card.

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Using the size of the desert as an excuse NOTHING has been found, and as further justification of the tremendous financial and emotional toll this cluster**** is taking on our country is criminal.

All we are showing by not drastically altering our policy over there is that we are intransigent and mediocre diplomatically. The diplomatic blunders and the shameless way Bush sent his wife to kowtow to the French made me physically ill. Where is the coalition of the willing now?

That said, pulling out is not an honorable option. We simply have stuck our foot in it and must find a better way to extricate ourselves.In doing that we also must look at what the true reasons for going over REALLY were. No American would have supported us going there to liberate Iraq, and now that we have no Saddam,no Bin Laden and no WMD's one has to wonder.

Part of me wants them to fail and reveal themselves as the political opportunists I think they are, but this issue is much bigger than that I truly hope that the Bush people get this one right and soon. Too much is at stake.

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quote:

Originally posted by Race Bannon IV:

Using the size of the desert as an excuse NOTHING has been found, and as further justification of the tremendous financial and emotional toll this cluster**** is taking on our country is criminal.

All we are showing by not drastically altering our policy over there is that we are intransigent and mediocre diplomatically. The diplomatic blunders and the shameless way Bush sent his wife to kowtow to the French made me physically ill. Where is the coalition of the willing now?

That said, pulling out is not an honorable option. We simply have stuck our foot in it and must find a better way to extricate ourselves.In doing that we also must look at what the true reasons for going over REALLY were. No American would have supported us going there to liberate Iraq, and now that we have no Saddam,no Bin Laden and no WMD's one has to wonder.

Part of me wants them to fail and reveal themselves as the political opportunists I think they are, but this issue is much bigger than that I truly hope that the Bush people get this one right and soon. Too much is at stake.

Ah, good argument but a few things we can't really say Saddam or Bin Laden are gone just yet not until we have definetive confirmation that they have indeed expired. All we've done right now is chase them into the shadows. And since we can't seem to get our hands on these two guys, what makes you think getting our hands on the WMD would be any easier. I for one can or cannot say whether there are WMD's becuase I just don't know as I'm sure the rest of us can say that and if you guys do say there are or aren't WMD's what physical evidence are you basing this on.

The debacle that's going on over there now with the deaths of our brave soldiers is a military blunder and I think military command heads should roll over this not our political leaders (yet). What do I base this on, well according to CNN the military rounded up all the weapons from the Iraqies and do you know where they put them in unguarded dumps in the desert and they never bothered to blow them up. There the weapons sit for anyone with a suicide tendency to grab them up and use them. What are they thinking!?

As for getting involved over there, why not. We would have had to deal with this sooner or later. You are forgetting one point, we are responsible for what has gone on in the middle east. What do I mean by "We"? The western powers, from the US to RUSSIA, from all the world wars to the cold war but mostly the cold war. Between us and the russians we've done a really good job over their using the middle eastern people as our pawns in the cold war game and fostering the kind of attitudes that prevail in the middle east now. From Democratic to Rebulican presidents allowing people in power over there we and the russians and all the other western powers knew if they were citizens in any country they'd be arrested as serial killers. So who do you say should clean this mess up that's gone over in the middle east for so many decades? It's called taking responsibility but I know in this country this idea has fallen out of fashion.

As for Bush's wife sent "Kowtowing" the french it's no worse than Bill Clinton shaking the hands of Fidel Castro or Hilary Clinton kissing and embracing Mrs Arafat (a year after Mrs Arafat's Anti-israel speech). Not to mention the opportunities Bill Clinton had to nail Bin Laden noooooo he'd rather sit on his butt nailing interns. At least we have a president now that's willing to take the bull by the horns and kick him in nuts!

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Regarding nothing being found: It's like our soldiers are being asked to find a cup of coffee and they find the cup, saucer, spoon, sugar, cream, beans, roaster, grinder, filter, percolator, and recipe, but they didn't find a "cup of coffee."

Regarding the politcs and the intelligence: We just yesterday saw the politics of intelligence with the leaked Senate Select Intelligence Committee Democrat memo laying out a plan to use their priveleged intelligence to undermine the Bush administration next year during the election. This is a story that is about to blow wide open. It might lead to a new thinking on the culpability of the Bush administration and the Democrat charges against it, or at least make it more difficult for the Democrats to make hollow charges.

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