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War in the Middle East?


Guest Commander Hamblin
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damn that's some funny **** (re: photo)

In a none offensive way...

Peace.

Update: I really respect the man! He risked his life to fight in the war. I respect that, it's the fact in that photo he is pointing the gun at himself, it's kind funny looking, that's all. Respect!

[This message has been edited by SpacePhish (edited 10-17-2000).]

[This message has been edited by SpacePhish (edited 10-18-2000).]

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I'll put this here, since it's military-related:

Army's New Uniform Code Intended to Boost Morale

All U.S. Army soldiers ÔÇô including the clerks and the cooks and not just Special Forces commandos and Rangers ÔÇô will get to wear berets under a morale-building moved to be announced by the Army command today.

In a speech set to be delivered this afternoon, Gen. Eric K. Shinseki, the Army chief of staff, will tell an Army convention that this "symbol of excellence" once reserved for members of elite units will be made available to all soldiers as "a signal to the young that we are moving, we are changing."

Here's the full story: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...-2000Oct17.html

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Guest aramike01

Yeah, they're black berets. The Rangers are PISSED! Airborne is have a good laugh at their rivals - airborne wears maroon.

------------------

Vice Admiral Michael Kristophers

ICV-Intrepid, Spectre (Antis)

Fleet Leader

Spectre Fleet

Official Tester, Battlecruiser Series

You can only love or hate what you truly understand!

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You know, the man deserves some respect for getting to the position he's in, but I've got to call a WTF here. Who here thinks, with everything else going on, that freaking hat style is something that deserves attention.

Man, if Russia/China were to ever get their act together, now would be a prime time to invade and take over. Our leaders are too busy checking on the latest trends in military head gear to notice anything else.

Tell me I'm wrong. Tell me that everything is really O.K. Please, someone give me a reason to have some faith in our military leaders. 'Cause next thing you know, the freaks will deciding whether we should have pink or blue dingleberries in the windshields of our HUMVEE's.

Moral boost. What a crock!

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Talk radio is saying that this is the latest attempt by the powerful left to demoralize the last remaining elite forces in the military by taking away their symbol of pride and accomplishment.

First, the officers were not re-upping or resigning, and now this.

[This message has been edited by Steve Schacher (edited 10-18-2000).]

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Following are excerpts from a Friday sermon in the Zayed bin Sultan Aal Nahyan mosque in Gaza, broadcast live on the official Palestinian Authority television. The speaker is Dr. Ahmad Abu Halabiya, Member of the PA appointed "Fatwa Council" and former acting Rector of the Islamic University in Gaza

quote:

"O brother believers, the criminals, the terrorists - are the Jews, who have butchered our children, orphaned them, widowed our women and desecrated our holy places and sacred sites. They are the terrorists. They are the ones who must be butchered and killed, as Allah the Almighty said: 'Fight them: Allah will torture them at your hands, and will humiliate them and will help you to overcome them, and will relieve the minds of the believers..."

quote:

"This is the truth, O Brothers in belief. From here, Allah the almighty has called upon us not to ally with the Jews or the Christians, not to like them, not to become their partners, not to support them, and not to sign agreements with them. And he who does that, is one of them, as Allah said: 'O you who believe, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies, for they are allies of one another. Who from among you takes them as allies will indeed be one of them...'"

quote:

Have no mercy on the Jews, no matter where they are, in any country. Fight them, wherever you are. Wherever you meet them, kill them. Wherever you are, kill those Jews and those Americans who are like them - and those who stand by them

Follow this link for an overview of the sermon and links to more detailed information: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_btl/2...isten_to_.shtml

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  • 4 weeks later...

From the Washington Times:

quote:

Beret policy ambushed by special forces reaction

Army documents show service leaders methodically planned how to sell the idea of issuing berets to all soldiers but failed to anticipate the ongoing firestorm of protest from special operations warriors.

The Army predicted soldiers would accept the change "in stride." In reality, commandos have barraged the Army and unit leaders with complaints.

Opposition to universal berets became so intense that one commander at Fort Bragg, N.C., ordered soldiers to stop using official e-mail addresses to vent their anger and to stop talking to the press.

Full story here: http://www.washtimes.com/national/daybook-20001113224752.htm

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  • 3 weeks later...

I would like to make a couple points about the Middle East situation:

1) Statements that Arabic or Islamic culture is prone to violence are nonsense. It reflects a deep ignorance of several things. First, Islam and Arab are different things. Most believers in Islam are NOT of arabic descent. Second, compared to the titantic and barbarous struggles that characterized Europes past five hundred years, states and peoples under Islamic influence don't even come close. Third, comments that Islam is intrinsically rejectist of other religions are false. The Koran recognizes Moses and Jesus Christ are prophets (although mortal men) whose message was perfected by Mohammad. Contrast this to the chauvanistic attitude displayed by the ultra-orthodox rabbis in Israel, who wield enormous influence within Israel, towards all Goy (Non-jews), espcially dark skinned people. I would suggest you read Israel Shahak for a more illuminating discussion of the fundamentalist tendencies of Orthodox Jewish religious leaders and their teachings.

2) Israeli is a completely hostile, militarily overwhelming, fundamentalist Jewish state (backed directly and indirectly by the sole remaining superpower), whose ultimate goal is either explusion or elimination of the Palestinians from what Israel considers its territory. A variety of direct (war) and indirect measures (settlements, strangulation of economy, withholding water resources, legal discrimination, etc) have been employed since 1948 to reach this gaol. Apart from desperate suicide attacks by radical elements, created by the appalling (Poverty) conditions of occupation that the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank live under, they are COMPLETELY powerless. Suicide bombers don't exist unless incredibly desperate circumstances create them.

3) Arafat is a corrupt exploiter of Palestinian misery. He sold many of the long standing claims, backed by International Laws governing right of return, illegality of gains made in war, "down the river" to the Israel under US pressure with the Oslo accords. Arafat signed them to strengthen his discredited domestic position despite the fact that he gave in to virtually all the Israeli demands. He collobrates with the Israeli's to secure his own position (similar to King Butelehzi in the Bantusian lands in South Afria during). His PNA police actually now do more of of the oppression and arrests inside the territories than the Israeli's did during the direct occupation. The result of Oslo was the creation of a neo-colonial puppet state run by a corrupt dictator.

4) Arafat and the PNA have almost no control over the stone throwers. The reason why the fatalities and injuries are completely one sided is that the PNA police, more directly under the control of Arafat, have no interest in getting killed so they don't fire on the Israeli soldiers. Much of the anger of this uprising is directed AGAINST Arfat. It is quite likely that if he attempted to use PNA force to reign in the demostrations that he would be assisinated. Israeli/US Media propaganda that the Palestinian people are robots who are controlled by Arafat for cynical political purposes is false.

5) The Palestinians are "supported" by a host cynical, non-democratic, and repressive states such as Syria, Egypt, Iraq, Saudi Arabia. These governments make lots of noise but have for the most part come towards an accommodation with Israel. In essence, these governments have abdicated any chance of regional control for their own situation as third-world elites.

7) The majority of Palestinians, like the majority of Israelis, have long since accepted that they will have to co-exist. TV Images of blood thirsty Palestinians who crave the desstruction of Israel are ridiculous. The Palestinian people have suffered enormous trauma from direct occupation, expulsion, and oppression, although of a different kind than the Israelis whose trauma are due to the fear of terrorism. Nonetheless, if a *fair* settlement is reached then the chances of peace are good.

Finally, the only viable long term solution is a bi-national,pluralistic state or a geunine end to Israeli rejectionism and a legitimate state for the Palestinians.

Cheers,

Blip

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I feel no need to expand upon my previous arguments. However, I do want to ask, if it is the Jewish (Isreali) people who are more violent, how come the Arabic population of the United States are attacking American Jews, and not vice-versa?

Seems to me that there's a deeper issue with the Arabic culture, even if you exclude all other facts.

One other thing: if what you say is true, that the Arabic and Islamic culture is not prone to violence, and it's all Isreal's fault, how then do you explain the constant inter-culture battling in the region?

Btw, "prone to violence" does not necessarily a naturally violent culture, it generally means that the culture has a history of violent conflict, which, as any history book will tell you, is true.

------------------

Vice Admiral Michael Kristophers

ICV-Intrepid, Spectre (Antis)

Fleet Leader

Spectre Fleet

"You can only love or hate something you truly understand."

Official Tester, Battlecruiser Series

Leader, Team 1

[This message has been edited by aramike (edited 12-01-2000).]

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sounds like palestine. course we could probably go on with this for awhile.

------------------

Commodore Kyle Antilles

ICV-Eclipse, Destiny Starstation (Nevuela)

Commanding Officer, Destiny

Spectre Fleet

"You can only love or hate something you truly understand"

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One more thing:

You know, it's sad that a lot of people choose to just ignore the violence in that region, or say that it doesn't exist, instead of actually looking at ways to change it. I mean, people are dying over there, and to make matters worse, people here try to say that all that death is not indicative of a violent culture.

Here's some thoughts from someone who's only knowledge of the region comes from the media:

  • If the Arabic culture is non-violent, explain the incredibly harsh penalties from crime such as petty-theft. While this may be indicative of a desire for law and order, it seems strange to me that it is acceptable for automatic weapons to be allowed on the streets (pretty much every Arabic nation allows the public to carry such weapons. Funny, but the exception to the rule is totalitarian Iraq).

  • If the Arabic culture embraces those from other beliefs, explain the constant "under sentencing" in Arabic nations for crimes committed by its members against those from other cultures. If you are an Arab citizen and you committed murder against an American citizen, for example, you'll either get less than 3 years of prison time (during which the guards will even treat you as a hero), or you'll walk scott-free. If you murder another Arab, you'll be executed.

  • To support my under-evolved theory, why is it that women still have little in the way of civil rights in most Arabic nations? That was a practice in many cultures, but most have evolved past this.

  • Also, your statement of most Arabic people not being Islam followers, the only major people in the region (save Isreal) who aren't of Islamic beliefs are the Kurds (who are rather violent themselves). Many of which still share in some fundamental Islamic beliefs.

------------------

Vice Admiral Michael Kristophers

ICV-Intrepid, Spectre (Antis)

Fleet Leader

Spectre Fleet

"You can only love or hate something you truly understand."

Official Tester, Battlecruiser Series

Leader, Team 1

[This message has been edited by aramike (edited 12-02-2000).]

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Well,here i was on a sudden "quest" to seek out somewhere to download (and hopefully find a way to make it work on win2k) my old time favoirate Elite,and i stumble upon bc3k(looks great btw,but this is for another post),and when i looked around the forum this what i see...

>>1) Statements that Arabic or Islamic culture is prone to violence are nonsense. It reflects a deep ignorance of several things. First, Islam and Arab are different things. Most believers in Islam are NOT of arabic descent. Second, compared to the titantic and barbarous struggles that characterized Europes past five hundred years, states and peoples under Islamic influence don't even come close. Third, comments that Islam is intrinsically rejectist of other religions are false. The Koran recognizes Moses and Jesus Christ are prophets (although mortal men) whose message was perfected by Mohammad. Contrast this to the chauvanistic attitude displayed by the ultra-orthodox rabbis in Israel, who wield enormous influence within Israel, towards all Goy (Non-jews), espcially dark skinned people. I would suggest you read Israel Shahak for a more illuminating discussion of the fundamentalist tendencies of Orthodox Jewish religious leaders and their teachings.>>

Just one of your many false and ignorent points,not violent?phrephes in its natural form,however the extermiests are the one who rule and you can bet that they are violent more then anything you would encounter(and hope you would never do),a "simple" proof to that are those pictures of what the palestines did to the soldiers lynched in rammalla:

(caution:! those pictures are very diffcult to view,please DO NOT view them if you think you wont be able to handle what you see!) http://www.geocities.com/f_hiz/pics3/brutal.htm

Peacfule,ah?if they had the chance they would do this to all 6 million of us.

About the orthdox jews,while im their last praiser(im non religous(?) and so are 75% of the population in israel),but what is this BS that they are against "towards all Goy (Non-jews), espcially dark skinned people",i am sure they preferr that everyone would believe as much as they do,but thats where it ends.

>>2) Israeli is a completely hostile, militarily overwhelming, fundamentalist Jewish state (backed directly and indirectly by the sole remaining superpower), whose ultimate goal is either explusion or elimination of the Palestinians from what Israel considers its territory. A variety of direct (war) and indirect measures (settlements, strangulation of economy, withholding water resources, legal discrimination, etc) have been employed since 1948 to reach this gaol. Apart from desperate suicide attacks by radical elements, created by the appalling (Poverty) conditions of occupation that the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank live under, they are COMPLETELY powerless. Suicide bombers don't exist unless incredibly desperate circumstances create them.>>

And where was israel in 1948 when the arabs were the superiors,and they all invaded israel,or during the six days war?or the yom kipur war? etc...,the arabs are the one tha are the one whose "..ultimate goal is either explusion or elimination ..." of the israelis... of what they consider THEIR terriotary.

>>A variety of direct (war) >>

And Who started this "war"?(a way for you to show if you really understand what is going on,or are just propagenda filled as i suspect).

>>and indirect measures (settlements, strangulation of economy, withholding water resources, legal discrimination, etc) have been employed since 1948 to reach this gaol. >>

All of those "measures",except for the settlements have only began since the current riots,in order to try and stop them,and about the settlements,are you aware why they palestines left "their land"? before the declarion of the independence by israel,the arab countries alerted all of the israeli arabs that they are about to invade,and advised them to leave israel since they may get hurt in the crossfire,most of the arabs figuring that since the arab nations were far superior to the under equipped and under manned israeli,decided to flee and wait until the war is over,fourtnetly we manged to prove the arabs wrong and won the war driving all the arabs armies back.now would you hand terriotry to people who wanted you dead and left just so they wont get thier hand dirty?

i wouldnt.but i still think that several settlements(notice the several,certinaly not all of what the palestines want),who serve for no good just beign surrounded by palestines.

>>Apart from desperate suicide attacks by radical elements, created by the appalling (Poverty) conditions of occupation that the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank live under, they are COMPLETELY powerless. Suicide bombers don't exist unless incredibly desperate circumstances create them.

>>

Oh i agree there,but the conditions were created mostly by the PA,not by israel.

and compleatly powerless??where are you living?? they have tens of thoubsends of guns waiting to be used,and most of them are courrently being used.araft isnt letting them out cause he doesnt want a full fledged confrenation with israel,and fearing that this will lose him the image of the "helpless palestines" fighting against the "evil israeli occupier".

>>Arafat is a corrupt exploiter of Palestinian misery. >>

No argue there.

>>Arafat signed them to strengthen his discredited domestic position despite the fact that he gave in to virtually all the Israeli demands. >>

roflmo! what demend did he live up too and has done anything about?israel is still off the map on eacha nd every school book(finaced by the UN BTW),all the area of israel is marked as palestine(i wonder what they are supposed to understand from that),their tv and radio stations are constently showing propagenda and hate creating "show"(death to the jews!is not uncommon),and by teaching them that the best way to die is by becoming a "shaid" and killing as many jews with you as you die,and if you take a sumicide car and mange to bomb it in a crowded area ,well done!

>>He collobrates with the Israeli's to secure his own position >>

How?please elborate?

>>His PNA police actually now do more of of the oppression and arrests inside the territories than the Israeli's did during the direct occupation>>

ROFLMO!! once again you show your ignorence on the issues.

are you aware of the fact the the palestines so called "jails" have an open door policy? i didnt know if to cry or to laugh when i read in the newspaper several weeks ago that members of the islamic jihad and hamam terroiests who have the blood on their hands of a hundred israelis,have told their jailers that they are leaving the jail into it will be "quiet again" ,suprisingily they never returned to the jail,can you believe that??

not to mention that since the begining of the riiots the PA has release over 200 known terrioest on its own accord.

>>Arafat and the PNA have almost no control over the stone throwers. >>

really?why does it seems that sometimes while the gaza strip is nearly totaly quiet ,the west bank is "in flames"?

araft has more control then you think,and if he wanted he could have caused the violence level to drop drasically.

>>The reason why the fatalities and injuries are completely one sided is that the PNA police, more directly under the control of Arafat, have no interest in getting killed so they don't fire on the Israeli soldiers>>

really? thats why they PA police,the araft tenzim and fatah are respoisnable for most of the shooting incidents ? and this is why the terroiest who gotten into kfar drom and shot a soldier and wounded another and died got a promotion?

>>Much of the anger of this uprising is directed AGAINST Arfat>>

i guess you havent seen the support rallies they have over there for him,dont let facts stand in your way though...

>>TV Images of blood thirsty Palestinians who crave the desstruction of Israel are ridiculous. >>

so what are you saying that they are?an illusion?

>>The majority of Palestinians, like the majority of Israelis, have long since accepted that they will have to co-exist. >>

yet thoubsends of thoubsends of them are on the streey each day calling for the "death of all jews","burn israel",and are shooting at IDF troops,detonating bombs and commiting suide attacks.

>>Nonetheless, if a *fair* settlement is reached then the chances of peace are good. >>

Oh i agree,however what will be *fair" for the palestines?

this entire struggle has began because of greed.

the arabs control 99.9% of the ME,and yet they want more.

the palestines are nothing but a "recent invention",just like jordan is.

and they would be more then happy to chew on more the lands of the already small israel,but where will it end?

even if we give them the entire west bank?why they wont demend tel avia,haifa,or entire jerasulem next?

Ehud

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Uh, oh. Getting strong there again. In the interest of not heading down "that" road again (those of you in this discourse for the get-go, know what I mean), I'm shutting down this thread.

Hopefully, someone can shut down the violence in the mid-east.

------------------

Vice Admiral Michael Kristophers

ICV-Intrepid, Spectre (Antis)

Fleet Leader

Spectre Fleet

"You can only love or hate something you truly understand."

Official Tester, Battlecruiser Series

Leader, Team 1

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