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TOKYO, Japan (CNN) -- At least eight children were killed and 21 people were wounded Friday when a

knife-wielding man stormed an

elementary school in Osaka,

Japan.

Police said the man entered the Ikeda

Elementary School during a break in

classes and stabbed students and

teachers with a 6-inch kitchen knife.

Seven girls and one boy were killed.

Most of the students were first- and

second-graders at the private school.

A teacher was in critical condition and

undergoing surgery.

Witnesses said the man entered four

classrooms, stabbing people as he

went in the rooms and a hallway.

"There was a shriek," an unidentified student told The Associated Press. "Then I

heard a cry for help."

Other students described teachers and hallways spattered with blood.

"We are filled with anger over this unfortunate situation," Kaoru Nakatani, head of Osaka Education University, which operates the elementary school, told the AP.

Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi expressed

shock at the stabbings.

Atsuko Toyama, Japan's education minister, also reacted strongly to the attack: "This should never have happened and is most regrettable."

The attacker was subdued by two teachers and

held until police arrived. He was being questioned and treated for injuries he

received in the attack.

Worried parents rushed to the chaotic scene to find out if their children were

safe. Dozens of ambulances and police cars converged on the school grounds.

Police said the suspect was a 37-year-old psychiatric patient and former

employee of another school who lived in the area and told them he was under

the influence of drugs during the rampage.

Police said they had not determined the man's motive.

There were about 680 students in the school, which is part of a complex of an

elementary, junior high and high school.

Well, we obviously need Knife control too, geez, yep, knives are just too dangerous to be in the hands of the common citizen. Better register them, create stab fingerprints, license and register the owners of such dangerous weapons. Or just make them illegal altogether. You have no right to own a knife!!!

This sound a little ridiculous? well your gun control sounds just as stupid!!

There is no such thing as a dangerous weapon, only dangerous people!!! A gun is a tool, just as a knife is a tool.

This man did not have a gun, but he had a knife, but if someone else had had a gun, they could have stopped this incredibly savage act with one shot!! This is the odyssey of gun control.

No matter what kind of laws are in place, a crazed person is going to find some way to kill. But if the intended victims of a crazy like this are armed themselves, the criminal becomes the victim. That is the way it should be!!

Don't get me wrong here, I feel very bad for the parents of those children, I am a parent myself, and can't imagine losing one of them to a madman like this.

The fact is, Japan has some of the most stringent gun control laws in the world, so they are all just victims waiting to be victimized. If just one of those teachers had been armed, This nut would not have been able to do nearly as much damage as he did. Would have saved the Japanese a costly trial too, pay for the burial of this nut, and you're done!!

[ 06-08-2001: Message edited by: Jaguar ]

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I'm not going to get heavily into this but guns are made for killing, knifes are generally for cutting things, usually vegetables.

To poorly paraphrase a well overused saying:

'People weren't made for killing people, guns were made for killing people'

Hate guns, they scare the shit out of me.

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Ok, just wait till someone starts going on a rampage, breaking peoples necks. Will they add hands to the list?

Oh yeah, we have been using knives to cut things, namely other humans for alot longer than we have been using guns to kill them. That being the case, why haven't we banned the use of them yet? Probably because all the gun control people don't want to east their steaks with thir hands.

[ 06-08-2001: Message edited by: Eclipse ]

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Actually, I think the point is, that guns make it far easier to kill people with. And guns are used only for killing, whereas knives have other practical uses.

Actually, in the USA, most school zones are considered zero-tolerance zones. Doesn't matter what you have on you, be it a kitchen knife, hand-gun, or assault rifle, you are in it up to your ears. So, had that incident been in the USA, and the teacher was packing, the teacher would be arrested just as fast as the attacker.

Reminds me of a situation that arose, where a 16-year old girl was arrested because her family used her car for a picnic. They missed a kitchen knife in the back seat. A teacher walking by the car, saw the knife, and had the girl arrested. As far as I know, she was tried as an adult (with no prior offenses), and put in jail.

Yet another fine example of US justice in action....

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Harpsicord wire should be downright outlawed! I mean COME ON does anyone actually play the harpsicord. I think the whole harpsicord thing is a front for a heavy choking weapons reasearch and development program. In fact ALL INSTRUMENTS ARE! OUTLAW MUSIC!!

Sometime people get caught up in their emotions from the event and make stupid decisions, like the one above, that was a hypothetical situation and quite outrageous, but similar things have been done I know for sure in the US (from the fact I live there).

For a more realistic example: Raves, they play some good european club music that you can't hear anywhere else in the whole damn country and just because there's some drug use (which by the way is almost 40% lower than public schools according to a St. Louis Police Department statistical investigation) the states and even the federal government are trying to make it ILLEGAL to hold any event that plays this type of music, using the war on drugs (don't get me started on that one) as a pathetic cover. Gun Control, Making Types of MUSIC Illegal, All violating the principles (and in several cases existing laws) the US was founded on, It makes me very sad that a scared housewife who can't properly handle her children can ask the govrnment to help and they end up "helping" the rest of the population when we don't need it. Grrrr! (Deep.. Breath... Must... Stop.. Ranting...) Sorry, I'm done, I'll go back to my corner.

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BAN VIDEO GAMES THEY COULD MAKE YOUR EYES TIRED

and while you are at it get rid of that scented toilet paper, it makes the head smell funny.

Banning something doesn't stop the problem or throwing more money at it either. If you educate and teach a little respect for others then maybe we could reduce some of the problems. Sick people are sick people and all the polically correct words will never change this. I think that people who do something bad or wrong should take their punishment and stop trying to shift the blame for their actions elsewhere....

'MAX'

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Im sorry Jaguar, but im gona have to disagree with you...

Yes guns are tools, but they were made for only one purpose, to kill, whers a knife was made for more pratical reasons as stated above, to cut food or anyother use that you can think of that doesn't result in killing another human being.

Don't get me wrong tho, but I haven't seen a gun being used for anyother reason then to kill except on the "simpsons" where homer uses his gun to open a beer can or to get a ball thats on the roof (Roflmao!)

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The argument that the gun's sole purpose is to kill doesn't hold water. In this country (USA) we have certain rights, including the one to bear arms. The statement made earler "Hate guns, they scare the crap outa me." That's the problem. Anyone who makes that statement should logically be even more afraid of cars, since you are hundreds of times more likely to be killed by or in one. This is NOT a bad comparison, it is an excellent one. What these people are really saying is "Hate violence, it scares the crap outa me." they just don't realize that they are giving their fear a physical outlet by assigning it to an object (a gun) that is typically viewed as a tool of those who are violent.

The end result is the opinion that if you remove the tool of violence you are actually removing the violence.

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quote:


Originally posted by Herro YuY:

Im sorry Jaguar, but im gona have to disagree with you...

Yes guns are
tools
, but they were made for only one purpose, to kill, whers a knife was made for more pratical reasons as stated above, to cut food or anyother use that you can think of that doesn't result in killing another human being.

Don't get me wrong tho, but I haven't seen a gun being used for anyother reason then to kill except on the "simpsons" where homer uses his gun to open a beer can or to get a ball thats on the roof (Roflmao!)


Unfortunately, it is not that simple. While what a gun does can kill, it doesn't mean that is what the tool is for.

For example, when I look at a hammer, I see a tool used to build something, when in reality, all it is doing is whacking a nail. A gun is very similar - I see it as a tool to keep peace, defend (and SAVE) lives, etc., when in reality all the tool is doing is shooting a bullet.

The tool known as a gun is like any other tool - it has a GOOD purpose and can be dangerous in the hands of certain people. A gun helps to keep our police safe, to keep my family secure, to keep peace in war torn areas.

A knife? Helps to cook and kills people.

I think the safety of good citizens and the peace of EVERYONE is more important. This is why guns should never be banned. Controlled? Yes. I do not have a problem with not allowing felons to own guns. I also do not have a problem with having to register firearms. But banned ... ridiculous.

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quote:

Yes. I do not have a problem

with not allowing felons to own guns. I also do not have a problem with having to

register firearms. But banned ... ridiculous.


I agree with the first part, I disagree with the registering of weapons, because the banning comes directly after the registering. Keeping them out of the hands of felons, definitley, no problem here with a background check, but DO NOT ask what type of Weapon I am buying, because it is none of the governments business!! Other then that Aramike, agree 100%!!

Oh and Romanian semiautomatic AK-47's just went on sale, $299 each, I think I'm gonna go down and get one. AK's are one of the best rifles ever built!!! They'll do a background check, and they'll take the serial numbers of the weapon, might as well be registering the darn things, but Oh well, really want that AK!! LOL

[ 06-08-2001: Message edited by: Jaguar ]

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Hey, over here we have gun control, but there is no weapon banned, except some special military and swat weapons (I wanna have a Steyr aug! ), but you have the right to keep m4a1's, mp5's, ak's

When you say a tool, gun is not a tool fpr anything else than killing. defend lives? how? By killing. If I only had to point a gun to save a life, I wouldn't keep bullets in that gun.

Sketch:

---

2 guys come in a bank. They have guns, and point everyone. Everybody get down, and the cashiers gives the money. everybody is afraid. Then, when the thieves have their money, the run away, and everyone is safe.

That is the "normal" situation. It does happen most of the time in bank robberies in Canada.

Here the "civilian gun" situation

2 guys come in a bank. They have guns, and point everyone. Everybody get down, and the cashiers gives the money. everybody is afraid. A woman on the ground pulls out a pistol from her bag, stand up and point the thieves. Afraid, they shoot the woman, drop the money and run away.

---

Ok, now tell me, what's better: loose money of loose a life?

[ 06-08-2001: Message edited by: Epsilon 5 ]

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Poor Epsilon,

You are a concientious objector I see, well your stories are cute, but WAY off.

2 criminals walk into a bank, pull weapons and ask for the money, when I see the weapons, I pull out my gun, and blow the closest ones head off, then I reaim and blow the head off the other one, no warning, no drop your weapons, but at the same time making sure that the bullet after going through thier heads, does not hit an innocent bystander. I aim and I shoot!! End of story. Sure there's some blood in the bank, but the robbers are dead, no trial needed, no money taken and 2 more criminals are off the street.

Easy for me......not easy for you? DON'T own a gun!!!

Yes, and you will say easy for me to say, well, military training and practice and knowing what it's like to kill a human being in self defense. You either CAN do it, or you CAN'T do it. You never know until you have been under fire.

Now I will tell you that there are over 2 1/2 MILLION crimes averted due to citizens having guns to defend themselves in this country EACH YEAR, yes, each year, and less then 2% of those guns are fired. Why, because crooks are cowards by nature, they see a gun, they A: give up, or B: run like hell!! The C: Take gun from citizen and shoot them with it, happens once out of 2000 times. If you own a gun, you had better be willing and able to use it, otherwise don't bother!!

If you see a weapons in a criminals hand, and it is being used for criminal purposes, pull out your own, shoot and ask questions later. END OF STORY!!! But like I said, if you are unable or unwilling to do this, don't even bother owning one!!

Epsilon, I forgive you, only because you are young and live in Canada, you are Naive and have been brainwashed by the system, so, therefore, I will feel sorry for you, not angry with you!!

My thesis on this is almost done, if You are canadian, under 35, been publicly schooled, and have never fired a gun in your life, let alone seen one, you will be for gun control, only because you don't know any better. The canadian part isn't really necessary either, because many Americans are that naive as well.

Epsilon, come down to Oregon, I will A: show you what a gun looks like, B: take you out and show you how to use one, C: teach you how to responsibly carry, clean, and store a firearm, and D: teach you that owning a weapon is a right, but also a HUGE responsibility.... Once you have been able to do these things, maybe you will change your mind and understand why Guns in the hands of honest citizens are important in ANY society. You will understand what it takes to be a CITIZEN, and NOT a SUBJECT!!!

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What the hell is going on here?! That article said nothing about knife control. If Jaguar showed the article just to have another go at the gun control issue, I suggest he take a closer look at Japan. This country has the most strict gun controls in the world. Guess how many homicides they have per year as a result of guns, and compare that figure to the number that New York City has in a day.

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Menchise,

You obviously don't have clue!!

Subjects are so funny that way!!

Guns are not the problem, This dude took a knife into a school and SLAUGHTERED 8 Students!! You're gun control, would obviously roll over to this as well. He used a knife, we therefore need KNIFE control!!

A homicide is a homicide, whether you used a gun, a knife, or DRANO!! a killer is gonna find a way to kill... By using your gun control logic, an oxymoron if I ever heard one, you need to control anything and everything that could concievably be used for a weapon!!

GET A CLUE!!!

Have you never heard of fighting ridiculousness with ridiculousness, ever heard of sarcasm, or fighting stupidity with stupidity?! Come on Menchise, use your F'ing HEAD!!!!

Sorry, may have gone too far, any CAT's that feel that this needs to be edited, feel free, BUT, I am not going to apologize!!

[ 06-09-2001: Message edited by: Jaguar ]

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quote:

Also, in regards to registration, the first and foremost RIGHT our nation allots us is

the right to be free of harm. The means to keeping this right is law enforcement. If

gun registration helps law enforcement, this is simply a protection of our RIGHTS.

Any citizen who does not plan on using a weapon for unjust means should have no

problem with helping to preserve their foremost right under republic.

I would normally agree, It sounds most Logical and of course makes sense, the only problem is, the goevernment now knows who owns what guns. And when the government decides that it is time to ban guns, guess who has the lists etc of law abiding gun owners and what guns they own? Background check, fine, knowing who owns what guns, not fine. History repeats itself, because no one listened the first time. Germany did this in the 30's, and then slaughtered 100's of thousands of thier own citizens. They knew where the guns were, so took them away. Japan did this, and Australia did it, and now of course Canada has done this. Once the government knows where the guns are, THEY WILL come and take them!! They always have and always will, registration is the first step toward confiscation, always!! This is why I wil ALWAYS be against gun registration!!

I am very afraid of the power the government takes once the citizens are disarmed, a government that cannot trust it's citizens with guns, cannot be trusted themselves!!

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Anybody hear about the kid who killed a girl with a wrestling move by accident? Mabey he needs a body license. Or the fact that kicking someone is legaly triable as assault with a deadly weapon! What about the fact that i bring a pencil to school every day? Guns are conrolled but piano-wire isn't?

The bottom line is no matter how much you do people are going to find a way to kill someone? I do, however support keeping guns away from children like myself and others.

Everyone however, has turned into a pansy. In school i'm joking with my freind and he throws leaves in my hair. I then start chasing after him saying "I'm gonna kill you" (JOKINGLY). A teacher stops me and tries to tell me I could be put in jail for making death threats. I mean COME ON! Isnt it so obvious that people are wayyyyyy to uptight about this whole thing?

[ 06-09-2001: Message edited by: Commander ZIX ]

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There are some valid points by the gun enthusiasts here. But I still have to disagree.

Guns do not save lives, they take them. When someone has an arm amputated due to cancer, no one dies. Same with surgery. However, if you shoot someone dead, they're dead. There is no chance of rehabilitation. No possibility of recompensation either. The criminal may have family also. In fact, often times, that's what drives a person to crime.

A few more scenarios similar to the others:

Two robbers come into the bank, neither has a loaded weapon. People are scared, someone pulls a loaded gun, two robbers dead.

Two robbers come into a bank with FAKE weapons that look real. People are scared, someone pulls a loaded gun, two robbers dead.

The first situation is assault with a deadly weapon for the robbers, not a crime punishable by death. The second, is manslaughter, not for the robbers, but for the former victim, who thought he was saving the day.

These are also serious situations that happen all the time. Most robbers do not want to kill anyone. But they will if they have to. Some are so against killing, that they leave their bullets at home. Some repeat offenders (due to background checks), are unable to get a new weapon, and thus make fake ones.

Now, stuff to add to the scenarios. Both robbers are pushed into this situation by severe destitution. It started when the plant closed (or whatever). They have families to feed and clothe. Which is why they thought they would hit the bank. Quick money that will get them on the positive side till they can land a new job (assuming they get away with it).

Now...you shoot them dead, their families starve. Who are you killing? A robber is a person too. Just someone who's been messed up by something (either psychological, or socioeconomic).

To step aside from my examples and make a separate point...

A number of countries have instituted gun control to a rather strict degree. While crime rates are still normal in those countries, we see a drastic drop in people who are outright murdered. We also see a significant drop in people who are slain during a robbery (mugging, bank, whatever).

When I say significant, I really mean significant. England, for example, has pretty heavy bans on usage of firearms, even for it's police. The number of murders in England for about the past decade, have been almost entirely in single digits for each year. Same with Japan and countless others who have strict gun control.

On the contrary, a country that has absolute freedom to bear arms, USA, we see that most cities over about 1 million have a higher murder rate than entire countries with gun control. In fact, some of the cities are notorious as being among the most dangerous cities in the world (LA, NYC) for crime.

It seems to me there HAS to be some kind of connection between gun control, and reduced murder rates. Either that, or American society is soooo messed up that people are driven to murder more frequently. Which is a whole different ball of wax that I certainly HOPE is not the case. Cause it's a heck of a lot harder to fix.

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Ok first off, coming fromthe UK, where gun ownership is VERY limited, the number of gun-related crimes is negligible compared with the US. Secondly, to compare the attack in Japan with the various incidents in US schools is just ludicrous. For example, the attack in Colombine, as far as I can see, was pre-determind and planned, but only cos the kids knew they could easily get there hands on firearms, if all they could find were a few kitchen knives, do you think the death toll would have been so high. Also, the two kids who sat in a tree in Arkansas (?) wouldn't have killed so many if all they had was assorted cutlery to throw at their classmates. The point I'm trying to make is that the ready availablity of guns make such incidents all the more common, I'm not trying to ban guns, but making them easier to control and more difficult to acquire would certainly reduce such incidents. Such knife incidents do occur, unfortunately, but imagine the carnage if that guy had access to any kind of firearm? Lastly, and a minor point, the phrase 'to bear arms' refers to a coat of arms in a battle or conflict, not weaponry. It was only the writers of the outdated and oh-so revered American constition who took it out of context and facilitated gun ownership for every tom, dick and harry who fancied it.

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You can't really compare the amount of crimes and murders these countries have to ours. Yes, maybe they have strict gun control laws but they also have a lower population. lets say 5% of people in a country will commit at least one offense in their life. 5% of 1 million is A LOT less than 5% of 100 million.

Oh, and also, a knife or arrow could do more damage to a person than a bullet. The only real difference is the range and speed of the given weapon.

EXAMPLE: gunshot wound = - knife = ---

[ 06-09-2001: Message edited by: Commander ZIX ]

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quote:

the phrase 'to bear arms' refers to a coat of

arms in a battle or conflict, not weaponry. It was only the writers of the outdated

and oh-so revered American constition who took it out of context and facilitated

gun ownership for every tom, dick and harry who fancied it.

Paddy, I have no Idea where you heard this, but it is an outright LIE!!! The founding fathers knew EXACTLY what that statement meant. It meant the free and unfettered access to firearms by a free people. You have NOT read the Federalist papers or you would know this, TRY AGAIN!!! That was an unadultered lying piece of propaganda put out by antigunners, it suckered you in, but it IS an outright Perversion of what the 2nd amendment of the US constitution is for!!

The 2nd amendment means EXACTLY what it says, and after you read the federalists papers, which I am sure after the above comment you have not, then, come back and say that again with a straight face.

Now as far as Criminals having families, OK, so that somehow gives them a right to rob me? I don't think so, if a crook carries a firearm into do a robbery, even if it is a fake, and he is shot dead, IT IS NOT MANSLAUGHTER!! It is self defense, WHY? Because there was no way that the victim or the intended victim could tell it was a fake. I am not a weepy bleeding heart type, if a man robs me with a fake gun, and I kill him with my real one, OOPS, sorry, but I have a right to protect my family. And sure I feel sorry for his family, but for him, NOT A CHANCE!!! It's called stupidity on his part for even trying it.

Did you know that 99.9999% of all guns are NOT involved in a crime each year, did you know that 5 times as many people die of drowning in backyard pools, then accidental shootings, did you know that over 2 1/2 million crimes are stopped due to a citizen with a gun. Did you know that when the law was changed making the punishment for using a firearm in a crime 5 times harsher then if they didn't use a firearm in the commissiona of a crime, that crime fell over 25%, did you know that when a state allows Concealed carry that crime statistics in ALL categories fall over 30%. These are PROVEN statistics. THe more firearms the safer, this is a fact.

So throw some more of that socialist propaganda at me, and let me tear nice BIG Holes in it!!!!!

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quote:

Originally posted by Jaguar:

Paddy, I have no Idea where you heard this, but it is an outright LIE!!! The founding fathers knew EXACTLY what that statement meant. It meant the free and unfettered access to firearms by a free people. You have NOT read the Federalist papers or you would know this, TRY AGAIN!!! That was an unadultered lying piece of propaganda put out by antigunners, it suckered you in, but it IS an outright Perversion of what the 2nd amendment of the US constitution is for!!

So throw some more of that socialist propaganda at me, and let me tear nice BIG Holes in it!!!!!

OK, I never read whatever you are talking about, but I do know the origin of the expression 'to bear arms' and maybe your founding fathers meant exactly what they said, it's just they mis-used the phrase in the first place (and before you ask, I never heard that argument from the anti-gun lobby, it was actually in a documentary about warfare by the author Frederik Forsyth.

As for socialism, you can shove it up your arse, I've never been a socialist and never will be, I actually voted Conservative before I moved to Switz. I'm just someone who believes in the sanctity of human life, and as far as I'm concerned, the less instruments designed for taking away a human life, the better.

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quote:

As for socialism, you can shove it up your arse, I've never been a socialist and

never will be, I actually voted Conservative before I moved to Switz.

ROFLMAO!!! OK, Fair enough!! lol

quote:

I'm just someone who

believes in the sanctity of human life, and as far as I'm concerned, the less instruments

designed for taking away a human life, the better.

And actually I am all for Human life as well, but mine and my families are the most important. Yes, your life is important to me as well, but it's not even a close 2nd. The fact is a gun is a tool, just like anything else, I am a small statured man, 150 lbs, 5'9" tall, not a great fighter by any stretch, but a gun in my hands is the great equalizer. As a civilian, I have had to pull my gun maybe twice, and have threatened to pull it a number of occasions, and have fired it only on the range. But the sanctity of my and my families lives are kept safe through me being able to keep and carry a firearm. as well as the lives of those that are around me.

I was trained by the US military, I have been qualified with a 45 pistol, 9 mm pistol, m-16 fully automatic assault rifle, m-60 60 caliber machine gun, 50 caliber machine gun, M-1 Tank 120mm, and most weapons in between, Also was in the process of qualifying with field artillery before getting out of the military, oh, and also qualified for the storing and handling of Nuclear weapons. I am one of the MOST qualified gun owners I know, I am in the process now of becoming a certified NRA instructor. I also am qualified for a CTS military clearance.

I have a concealed weapons permit for Oregon and Washington, Oregon being the most difficult in getting. I own a number of weapons, and AM ALWAYS armed, except on the rare occasion when I am drinking alchohol, the guns are then put away in the safe and left alone!! I have also been requested by the local law enforcement to be ARMED AT ALL times when out in public, and am asked, when seen by those same law enforcement officials, if I am.

Now tell me that I should not own a firearm, if you do, I will tell you what a nut you are!!

I am overqualified as far as I am concerned, any responsible gun owner will take a safety course in the use and handling of weapons, the storage of same, and when and when not to fire in a criminal situation. I would not regard this as overly zealous on the part of the government to require these courses for every gun owner, but, the government has no need to know, what type of weapons I own, where and how I store them, or how many weapons I have in my possession. All they need to know is that I know how to use them properly, through a certified training course, which I had to take in order to get my CWP by the way. And of course a FULL background check, a felony, and forget about it!! And if a felon is caught with an illegal firearm, which means ANY firearm, he should be tossed in jail and the key thrown away!!

There, let's see where this thread goes from here!!

[ 06-09-2001: Message edited by: Jaguar ]

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quote:

Originally posted by Jaguar:

Paddy, I have no Idea where you heard this, but it is an outright LIE!!! The founding fathers knew EXACTLY what that statement meant!

The Second Ammendment has one purpose (which is not to allows us to proctect ourselves from criminals BTW). That one purpose is to ensure that the citizens of the United States have the ability to remain free. Our Founding Fathers wanted to ensure that this nation's children would have the means to fight the Revolution all over again if needed. They realized that the only reason they had been able to free themselves from the fetters of King George was that they had the power to fight for their freedom. "Give me liberty or give me death!" May God preserve this great nation from ever facing that again, but may He also preserve us from the folly of neutering that right.

What other country can lay claim to freedom of the press, to freedom of assembly, to freedom of (or even from) religion? Name one other country that can lay claim to the freedoms enjoyed by the citizens of the United States of America! Unfortunately, most of us have forgotten that with great freedom comes great responsibility. As Mark Twain put it "It is by the goodness of God that in our country we have those three unspeakably precious things: freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, and the prudence never to practice either."

quote:

Did you know that 99.9999% of all guns are NOT involved in a crime each year, did you know that 5 times as many people die of drowning in backyard pools, then accidental shootings, did you know that over 2 1/2 million crimes are stopped due to a citizen with a gun. Did you know that when the law was changed making the punishment for using a firearm in a crime 5 times harsher then if they didn't use a firearm in the commissiona of a crime, that crime fell over 25%, did you know that when a state allows Concealed carry that crime statistics in ALL categories fall over 30%. These are PROVEN statistics. THe more firearms the safer, this is a fact.

Did you know that 85% of all statistics are pulled out of thin air? It is not that I do not agree with your hypothesis, for I do agree with you; just that without concrete backing, your numbers appear to be more a tool of the very propoganda that you desire to quash.

Something that one must also consider, every other Western Country is either itself over a thousand years old or was formed by or is still controlled by a country that is over a thousand years old (basically). The United States of America was founded to redress the injustices and inequitties inherint in these Old World Countries. The positives found in the US that cannot be found elsewhere come at a great price: War. Unfortunately for us, the war is now hidden. No longer is it a hated enemy that threatens our freedom, it is ourselves and our abuse of our freedom that threatens our freedom.

May God grant us the wisdom to recognize our folly before it is too late and may we, who see our enemy, rouse our neighbors.

PS

One thought slipped my mind: When comparing the US to the "Old Wolrd" one must remember that it was designed to NOT be another Old World country. You must remember that you are not comparing apples to apples. The same goes for the US when compared to the East...we have no shame (you figure that one out yourself, and then decide if that's really good or really bad or neither). And, fortunately, there is no way to compare the US to the Middle East at any stage of its turmoiled history.

[ 06-09-2001: Message edited by: Tyrn ]

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