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The Myths that Divide us


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This is a new book coming out that appears interesting:

quote:

Summary

"Black Americans cannot succeed because our country is racist."

If you're like many others, this statement doesn't sit well with you. Yet many contemporary civil-rights leaders claim that it's the tragic truth. How can you counter the inflammatory charge that we live in a racist nation, a country of victims and victimizers?

John Perazzo's powerful and timely book, The Myths That Divide Us, ( Click here to save up to $20.00 off list price ) gives you the answers. This book has drawn rave reviews from such eminent commentators as Dr. Walter E. Williams, David Horowitz, Michael Medved, and George Gilder. In it, you discover how black-white relations are sabotaged by demagogues who mischaracterize our country as racist. You see their false claims demolished by solid evidence. Drawing on mountains of important sociological research, Perazzo demonstrates that the most serious social and economic problems currently afflicting black Americans are not due to societal racism but to issues within the black community. Just consider a few of the hundreds of remarkable facts his book gives you:

Countless studies show that fatherlessness, not race, is by far the most accurate predictor that a child will end up in poverty or in prison. And today, about 70 percent of black children are born into fatherless homes.

70 percent of long-term prison inmates, and 70 percent of juveniles in reform institutions, were raised without a father.

85 percent of all black children living in poverty are raised in single-parent homes.

The incomes of fatherless black families are only about one-fourth as high as the incomes of two-parent black families. A similar disparity exists among white one- and

two-parent families.

Ever since 1981, black families with two college-educated, working adults have earned more than similar white families in every age group and in every region of the United States. As early as 1970, black two-parent families outside of the South were already earning more than comparable white families.

Black full-time workers today earn slightly more than white workers of the same age, sex, and I.Q.

Black defendants are slightly less likely to be prosecuted and convicted of felonies than white defendants charged with similar crimes.

Though blacks commit more than half of our nation's murders, nearly 60 % of all Death Row inmates are white.

94 % of all black homicide victims are slain by other blacks.

Violent white criminals select black victims for just 3 % of their crimes, while black criminals choose white victims for 54 % of their crimes. All told, 89 % of all interracial violence is black-on-white.

Because of affirmative action, black applicants are much more likely than white applicants to be admitted to the college of their choice, even though whites score about 200 points higher on the Scholastic Aptitude Test.

Affirmative action has heightened racial tensions while doing virtually nothing to improve the economic condition of black Americans. Black economic progress was already well underway and proceeding at a brisk pace long before affirmative action even existed.

Black progress in such realms as income, high-school graduation rates, life-expectancy, and home ownership was faster between 1940 and 1970 than after the rise of affirmative action in the early 1970s.

Though significant numbers of blacks surveyed perceive that white society strives to limit their opportunities and civil rights, polls show that racist white attitudes have diminished remarkably in recent decades. For example, 93 % of eligible whites say they would be willing to vote for a black presidential candidate, and scarcely 1 in 100 whites favors racial discrimination against blacks in the workplace.

Perazzo further shows that many of those who focused world attention on the evils of South African apartheid are silent about the far greater atrocities perpetrated by black governments on black victims throughout Africa. You learn that even under apartheid, more blacks actually moved into South Africa than left it -- because the economic and social conditions in neighboring African nations were worse. And you discover that many denouncers of past centuries' white-on-black enslavement remain silent about the black-on-black servitude which pervaded Africa during the very same epoch, and which still exists in several African nations today. This book's vivid narrative of Africa's horrific black-on-black atrocities, which have been utterly ignored by virtually all civil-rights leaders of our day, make for an unforgettable reading experience.

The Myths That Divide Us provides the knowledge you need in order to refute the false, divisive charge that ours is a racist nation. It demonstrates that America is in fact the least racist white-majority society on earth; that our country provides greater legal protections for minorities than any other society; and that it offers more opportunity to a greater number of black people than any other place on earth, including all the nations of Africa combined. "The truth will set us free," says Perazzo. Our racial divisions are entirely remediable, but only if we have the courage to reject the widely accepted lie that all black troubles are due to white racism."


Any thoughts on the subject? Civil Rights leaders who you agree or disagree with? Thoughts on racial tensions in different countries?

[ 12-05-2001: Message edited by: $iLk ]

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Guest Shingen

quote:

"Black Americans cannot succeed because our country is racist."

This statement is crap, and I fail to understand how people STILL hold this concept as there are hundreds of thousands of successful Black Americans.

If one was to do an actual count of such things, there are probably as many successful Black Americans as there are successful White Americans, and on the flip-side, the same could be said of poor Americans.

If you want my two-cents, I'd say the most people who 'suffer' from "discrimination" are single white males, as it seems to be politically correct to be biased against white males in general.

But none-the-less, success is a product of ambition and creativity, not racial discrimination.

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Please read beyond the first statement, the author actually doesn't agree with it, it is to trigger an emotional response with the reader.

He gives reasons why race doesn't relate directly to many problems, in essence race is indirectly involved.

Read what I have in italics. On second thought, I'll edit my post to put them in bold.

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Understood Gallion, and it isn't my intention to stir anything up. I found this interesting because traditionally I thought maybe race had a lot more to do with things that this book says it does. It is saying that a majority of crime is commited by people who grew up in single parent homes, and statistically it is black families who have the highest rate of single parents.

What's truly interesting is that if you only take into account single parent family numbers, the races are comparable in crime. This leads me to believe that crime is a result of loose family structure, of which blacks tend to have greater than whites, which explains the crime differences.

It also concludes that Affirmative Action simply antagonized the races without solving the actual problems.

My main conclusion from it is that it is the victim mentality of liberalism which allows such loose behavior to propagate because it is always someone else's fault for their predicament, white-or-black.

So they can screw up their lives all they want to through BAD CHOICES, and still be able to blame "whitey" for their predicament. This is the view that pervades the concept of liberalism, because liberalism takes responsibility and shuts it out of the picture. There is always some (historical disadvantage, race, social injustice, etc.) to blame for their decisions, so instead of waking up and looking in the mirror to realize "Hey, I'm a bum, I should get a job!" they wake up, look into the mirror and say "Those white racist have ruined my life, guess I'll go get the welfare check I didn't work for and go use it at the bar and sit on my butt and complain about the historical injustices and slavery and terrorism that I and my ancestors have endured for so long!"

Here's how an interview would go between me and this type of person:

ME: If life is so terrible why not try to improve it?

Black Welfare Recipient: "Because it's impossible, because of white racism in this country!"

ME: Isn't that an excuse to keep from working?

Black Welfare Recipient: "Are you accusing me of lying? That's racist!"

ME: No it's not, I'm simply saying that maybe the person to blame for your misfortunes is you.

Black Welfare Recipient: "SPOUT YOUR IGNORANCE BIGOT!"

In conclusion, I think it's sad that liberals lie to these people, and in essence get them to lie to themselves and truly believe that even though they are leeching off the system, it isn't their fault. It's the white man's fault for being so successful and building such a beautiful country. Any blacks who get ahead in the system obviously "act white".

If only they would wake up and get a job and have some self-dignity. Waking up meaning quit listening to class-warlords like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson, and look at things from a common sense point of view.

But it's so much easier to cop-out and blame someone else to justify stealing from taxpayers.

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I don't live in America, so I can't really comment.

I do know someone who works in a law firm here in Toronto (Big Huge Lawfirm) who told me that his firm will never ever hire a jewish person. And that they'd never promote a woman to a top position.

He know's it's wrong, but that's the way it is.

Just because that's the way it is, doesn't mean we have to accept it.

[ 12-06-2001: Message edited by: Kush ]

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No Kush, we don't have to accept it, but we can't exactly provide an opposite extreme alternative and expect it to solve anything can we?

I personally would hire who is qualified for the job, whatever color. But if someone doesn't want to hire someone of a certain color, if it's their private business I say they should be able to refuse them without fear of reprisal. Why would you want to work for them anyway? The answer today is, you wouldn't - but it makes for a nice discrimination lawsuit.

I think that's wrong because 95% of the time I'll bet the person isn't hired because they aren't qualified and it goes to court anyway - with about a 75% chance of a settlement out of court.

It's blatant BS.

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quote:

But if someone doesn't want to hire someone of a certain color, if it's their private business I say they should be able to refuse them without fear of reprisal.

It's not their private business. It's illegal. If someone can prove you did not hire them because of their colour, gender, gender preference, or religion or ethnic background, they can sue you.

That's the law. Here and in your country.

Asking people not to be rascist isn't a bother. It's a responsibility of all citizens who value the belief that all people are created equal.

[ 12-06-2001: Message edited by: Kush ]

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You asked for other countries, well in France lots of black are from Guyane or Martinique territories, and they are frensh since centuries.

I work in IT, and I cannot remember a frensh black booted out just for his skin color.

(I said frensh black)

But this is not the case for Arabs (mostly Algeria and Morocco), since I have witnessed that on equal qualification, experience and pay a white or black guy will frequently be favored over an arab.

It is illegal, but you will never be able to prove it.

Today, if you want to hire an IT engineer, you will be able to find tens of qualified unemployed Arab guys but very few frensh names.

All service providers companies know that an Arab guy is much more difficult to rent to a client than an europeen guy (even an asian or black one).

So what of a solution ?

I still wonder.

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Kush - my point is that they can't prove it. The person doing the hiring should have to say "I didn't hire you because you were black" in order to get sued. It is wrong to sue someone over a reason that can't be proved.

For instance, black male goes up to get a job. He doesn't get it. The white man doing the hiring didn't hire him for a legit reason, but was more of a gut instinct from the interview than anything bad on the black's record. Black knows he has a good record and ASSUMES it was because of race. Then it's an argument of who can convince the jury.

It's wrong, if someone is racist, they ought not have to hire someone of a certain color if they don't want to. But at the same time they can't make it known that that's why.

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quote:

Originally posted by $iLk:

If someone is racist, they ought not have to hire someone of a certain color if they don't want to. But at the same time they can't make it known that that's why.

So what you're suggesting is that if someone is rascist, we should find a way to hide the fact that he's rascist. So that if someone doesn't want to hire a person because of their skin colour, they don't have to.

That's a great idea!

Okay, lets to that. I... wait, wait wait a second...

That's the way things are now.

I've got an idea. How about if I'm a black person, and I think someone has passed me over because of my skin colour, I can take them to court.

There's a great... hold on, hold the phone.

That's the way things are now.

I've got an idea.

How about we not look at a persons skin colour. How about we only judge people based on the content of their character.

...

Naw. That would never work.

[ 12-06-2001: Message edited by: Kush ]

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Kush, please don't infer so much from my posts. What I'm saying is that everyone has a right to their own bigotries, and I believe that they are much less common than made out to be. Making them illegal is wrong because with the stroke of a pen you have illegalized the thoughts of people.

I think that racism is wrong, but what exactly should be done about it? The programs we have now are failures because supposed victims are taking advantage of them. It's human nature so you are damned if you do damned if you don't.

I say that all racial quota laws should be abolished. I believe that SMART business owners would hire people based on the quality of their character. Only the ignorant would abuse their bigotry to the point of not hiring ANY people based on the color of their skin.

It should be illegal, as you say to consider race as a factor in hiring, but I say that the person doing the hiring shouldn't have to fear a lawsuit and be strongarmed into hiring minorities.

As long as the person doing the hiring doesn't make any overt statements doing with color, the minority seeking the job should have no recourse except to look elsewhere.

They shouldn't be able to force the guy into court to seek out his "hidden" bigotry is all I'm saying.

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quote:

Originally posted by $iLk:

Kush, please don't infer so much from my posts. What I'm saying is that everyone has a right to their own bigotries.

I'm not infering anything from your post. You say that EVERYONE HAS A RIGHT TO THEIR OWN BIGOTRIES. I disagree.

It is not a right to be a bigot.

It is actually counter productive, illegal, and down right stupid.

Every baseball team in America had, at one point, agreed to not hire blacks in baseball. It was never an official policy, but it may as well have been.

Jackie Robinson changed all that. He actually started off his baseball career here in Canada (shameless plug for my country coming, hold on to your hats) The Montreal Royals hired him. And witnessed what was clear to anyone who knew anything about baseball at the time. He was able to play here, without restriction, without worrying about what hotel he could sleep in. Without worrying about what restaurant he was allowed to eat in. Anyone at that time who saw him play knew that he was one of the great players. When he was picked up by the Brooklyn Dodgers it was a HUGE deal in America. Most people thought that black Americans were little more than animals who knew nothing about the complexities of America's favourite sport.

Then came, THE CATCH.

In one moment, running towards the wall, arm outstreched, he caught a baseball in a way that no one had ever caught a baseball before. It was as if he had calculated the tragectory in his mind in an instant and placed himself where he needed to be.

That's how good he was.

Anyone who over looked his ability as a ball player, because he was a negro, was a moron.

It's true.

Now I know I'm standing on a pretty high horse right now, and I shouldn't be.

Here in Canada, we treat our native population worse than we treat animals.

I know I'm going to stir up a lot of controversy when I say this among our Canuck members, but the Native situation here in Canada is abismal.

I really shouldn't talk.

There are those who would like you to believe that Natives here in Canada just drink their lives away.

That they are stupid. That they are genetically inferior. The fact that we took their land away from them, and left them powerless, with no way of creating self worth, has no bearing on the fact that they feel a hoplessness, and depression that kills their soul.

My last girlfriend was from Trinidad.

It was an amazing, three year relationship, full of great passion, and incredible pain.

The fact that she's black means nothing. It didn't work out. She realized she didn't love me. I realized that I shouldn't still love her. We had issues to resolve, we dealt with them.

The woman I married is from my home town. I didn't marry her because I was looking for a white wife, or I was afraid to trust a black woman with my heart, the world just works in funny ways, I met my wife and I am very happy. VERY HAPPY.

My ex and I, when we were still together, visited Washington DC once to see a thanksgiving football game.

That weekend, I learned a few things.

a)Americans love their football almost as much as we Canadians love our hockey.

b)West Indian blacks feel sorry for Black Americans.

Most West Indian blacks won their freedom from the British, fair and square.

I met a Scottish guy once who said that the West Indians have something that most Scots will never know. I don't want to get involved in Scottish Nationalism, (really, as a Canadian, I don't!) but I'm trying to point out that as a West Indian, she felt a strong sense of pride in herself. And her people. And she made it clear that it's something Black American's don't have.

She told me, Black Americans have been told for so many centuries that they are sub human, that they are worthless. She doesn't understand it. She doesn't feel that way about herself.

She said this is why Colin Powell did so well in America, because his background is West Indian, not American. And what most Black American's need is to be told that they are not genetiacally born to be criminals. That they are not genetically inferior. They're just human beings, with all that being human entails.

One thing she made me understand is that it helps no one to tell a group of people that they are genetically inferior to you. For one reason, it's probably not true, and for another reason, it doesn't help them in any way.

It doesn't help our native population to simply say, 'Hey, you guys are drunken bastards who live off of us taxpayers.' That does nothing to help the Native community. As a matter of fact, it hinders them.

If all you're trying to do with this thread is 'prove' through statistics that black Americans are stupid and lazy, and that people should be allowed to not hire stupid and lazy black Americans, then I don't really have much more to say. In my job I have to hire people all the time. So does my wife. If you don't want to be in a position to hire people, don't get yourself in that position.

If you like being in the position to hire people, do it right. Do it legal. Do it fair.

[ 12-07-2001: Message edited by: Kush ]

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I'm going to make one small comment and then I'm going to go back to ignoring this thread (I'm trying to stick to one debate at a time).

First, it is not illegal to have bigot thoughts or bigot opinions, which is why the KKK is not in prison. The whole point of democracy is for everyone to express opinions and for everyone else to criticize them. Of course, there are some restrictions in particular circumstances where any such expression can restrict liberty, but mostly it's legal.

It's illegal when these bigotries are put into practice (the employment based on race issue is one example), because it directly infringes on the principle of equal liberty, and the great thing about that principle is that it points both ways: Black people can't refuse to hire someone because they're white either. So, unless the anti-discrimination law is not being enforced properly, any criticism of it that claims racial bias is unfounded.

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Very good point Menchise, thanks for the assist!

I can have all the bigoted thoughts I want. I can even express them publicly. If I send a memo saying 'I ain't hiring no homeys, go bling bling someone elses business!' I could get my ass sued. And I should get my ass sued.

America USED to be a place where not hiring blacks was the norm. It used to be a place where Lena Horn could entertain hundreds of thousands, but she couldn't walk in the front door of the very theatre she was singing in. It used to be a place where going to school a school in Little Rock meant a black person would have to walk through crowds of people spitting and throwing rocks and racial epithets. It used to be a place where Tiger Woods couldn't play in certain country clubs because of his skin colour. And that wasn't in our parents life time. That was a couple of years ago.

I really think we should be moving away from those years. Not back to them.

If someone accuses me of rascist hiring practises and I AM rascist, I should be fired. a) You're a legal time bomb waiting to go off. B) You're counter productive to the organization. You're less able to see if someone is properly skilled. You're not focused on hiring the best person for the job. And that can be deadly to any company.

If someone accuses me of rascist hiring practises, even though I know, in my heart, I wasn't being rascist all I can really do is a) Provide all my documents. B) Give an honest appraisal of why the person wasn't hired. c) Hope for the best.

While I was working at another company, a few years ago, someone outside the company accused our boss of being rascist. Everybody, of all colours shapes and sizes rushed to his defense. Everyone had the same story. The boss was demanding, and fair, to everyone, no matter what colour they are. That's what you want. That's what you want your employees saying about you. That's what I want my employees saying about me. I want everyone working to the best of their ability. I want everyone to feel like their contribution to each project is fully appreciated. I'll make mistakes (I've made a couple already and I'm not telling anyone!) but I want people to know that the best is expected of them, and will be appreciated. No matter what colour, gender, gender preference, religion, or race they are. My field is too competitive. I can't afford to turn away a potential Jackie Robinson. I find it hard to believe anyone can.

Again, I don't want to sound like I'm on a high horse, cause Canada sure does have it's fair share of problems. (And you'll notice I never mentioned any of them. ) And I don't live in America, but I find it hard to believe that the biggest threat to America right now is Affirmative Action.

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Okay guys I haven't exactly worded my points to the utmost of my ability and for that I apologize as I may have been unclear.

quote:

If all you're trying to do with this thread is 'prove' through statistics that black Americans are stupid and lazy, and that people should be allowed to not hire stupid and lazy black Americans, then I don't really have much more to say. In my job I have to hire people all the time. So does my wife. If you don't want to be in a position to hire people, don't get yourself in that position.


No that's not what I'm trying to prove, if you'll read my first post you'll note I am surprised to learn that black americans and white americans are drawn in like numbers to crime statistically when they come from single parent homes.

What I have seen proven is that blacks are more often than whites born into single parent homes, and this accounts for the higher crime rate. So it's not about race, it's about fatherlessness or motherlessness.

On to what I meant about everyone having a right to their own bigotries. I believe it is illegitimate to legally dicate how people should THINK. If the Klan wants to rally on, go for it. If a Klansmen owns a business, and doesn't want to hire blacks (mind you I'm talking about a small business not a corporation.) then I believe that since it is he who forks out the money, it is he who should hire whomever he likes.

Why don't we legally punish those who discriminate against idiots? If someone is a moron and wants to be a rocket scientist, who are we to deny them that job?

My point is, that todays laws are unconstitutional and immoral. Take for instance racial quotas. I don't care how you spin it, racial quotas are wrong.

Affirmative Action, is wrong. It has solved none of the underlying issues and in fact has only antagonized the races further.

In conclusion to my main thesis, it doesn't matter what color you are as long as you can do the job. But if someone who is equally qualified as a white and happens to be black doesn't get hired, tough luck. If the person doing the hiring says it's because he doesn't like blacks I think that's wrong, but at the same time - if he doesn't say anything about why he didn't hire him and just said, "sorry you aren't hired" the black person shouldn't assume "it's because i'm black". People should have no legal resource unless the person doing the hiring specifically states that they acted a certain way because of color.

I know it's illegal but then again so are many other things according to our laws. Carrying 10000 dollars in cash is illegal in the USA. Carrying guns in California is all but illegal. Doesn't make it right.

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Well, we both agree that we are free to think whatever racsist thoughts we want.

Yeah.

Break out the champagne.

quote:

Originally posted by $iLk:

If a Klansmen owns a business, and doesn't want to hire blacks (mind you I'm talking about a small business not a corporation.) then I believe that since it is he who forks out the money, it is he who should hire whomever he likes.


As much as I doubt a black person would want to work in a small shop run by a Klansman, it's still wrong to stop any person from working in that shop. One thing I haven't approached is the three month probation period. I don't know about in the States, but up here, you can fire someone for any reason in the first three months. After that period, you have to document what they're doing wrong, give them three warnings, then you can fire them. If that Klansman wants to get rid of Shaq in the first three months, fine. Fire him. No questions asked. Just don't meet up with him in an alley afterwards.

And as you suggest, large corporations often times have a responsibility to the community, and to the society at large. Employment has a major effect on everything from school taxes, to infrastructure, to the general health and welfare of a community. Coors got into a little trouble a few years ago. Some one in a board meeting tape recorded himself making rascist comments and suggesting that blacks will never get promoted in the Coors company.

Someone got a hold of that recording and all hell broke loose. It was a perfect case study in what not to do. Basically if a company the size of Coors decides not to hire people because of their skin colour, it has a much larger effect than the klansman with the hardware store.

quote:

Originally posted by $iLk:

In conclusion to my main thesis, it doesn't matter what color you are as long as you can do the job. But if someone who is equally qualified as a white and happens to be black doesn't get hired, tough luck. If the person doing the hiring says it's because he doesn't like blacks I think that's wrong, but at the same time - if he doesn't say anything about why he didn't hire him and just said, "sorry you aren't hired" the black person shouldn't assume "it's because i'm black".

In my personal experience, when someone doesn't get a job that they applied for, and they know their qualified to do, they all look for something to blame. 'They didn't hire me cause I'm black.' 'They didn't hire me cause I'm white.' 'They didn't hire me cause I've got a third nipple.' That's fine. It is totally natural, rational, and legal to blame and rationalize till the cows come home. I think we've all done it, one time or another. (Hell, it's one of the reasons why I started my own company!) It's very rare that someone actually gets upset enough to actually take a company to court. It's even rarer that the person will have enough evidence to try the case successfully. Most discrimination cases have two, to three years of waiting before their even investigated. And when they are, the vast majority are thrown out. If you're terrified that some black guy is going to get you fired cause you didn't hire him, you're wasting your time. And if you're hiring someone because you're scared, you're not doing your job.

As I said earlier, in my experience, the real trouble is when two people are pretty well evenly balanced in terms of good/bad qualities. Rarely do you get two people who have exactly the same qualifications. Personally I go on whether the person in front of me seems like a team player. If three months into the project, Bob is capable at his job, but everyone in the office hates his guts, you've got a problem. If you hired Bob because he's white, you made a mistake. If Bob is black, you gotta treat him the same way you'd treat anyone. reprimand him the same way you would any other employee.

Now, here's some fuel for your argument.

There are times when it is absolutely important to not hire someone because of their race, gender, gender preference etc.

I could apply to be a councellor at a rape crisis centre, but I'm not going to get the job. I'm a guy. A straight guy. The last thing on earth a woman who was just raped wants to see.

I don't think it would be appropriate right now for Yasser Arafat to apply to work on a kibbutz.

And nothing personal $ilk, but if I go to an authentic Japanese restaurant, I don't want to see you waltzing around in a kimono. I don't care how good you think you may look in it.

There are some rare cases where your gender, race, etc will exclude you from employment. But these are very few and very far between. And it is better for the economy, better for the general health of the country if we get as many people employed and working as possible. Restricting where people could work based on their race was the old way of doing things, and it wasn't efficient. It didn't work.

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quote:

And nothing personal $ilk, but if I go to an authentic Japanese restaurant, I don't want to see you waltzing around in a kimono. I don't care how good you think you may look in it.

ROTFLMAO !!!

I tried eating sushi once... I hate it. So don't worry

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