Racial Profiling - A debate

[Guest $iLk]

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So let's say I'm a terrorist from the middle east. I want to send a plane into the white house. And I know that all airports have racial profiling.

No problem.

I find a muslim guy who sympathizes with me who has blonde hair and blue eyes. (Yes, they exist.)

Change his name to John Smith. I give him two feet of piano wire.

I find a couple of black muslim guys who were born and raised in America who sympathizes with me. Get them into flight training.

Get them onto a plane that leaves washington early in the morning, it's done. While you're wasting your time searching through the bags of some poor American citizen, treating him like a defacto terrorist because his name is Abdulah and his skin colour is darker than yours, I've hit the white house.

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I don't believe you will find many who are willing to DIE to further this cause. Especially Black Americans. But for the sake of argument, lets say you can. As a foreign national in the USA, you would certainly have to have some business here. And the INS in the future should be able to follow up on what you do. In addition airport security will go up agains ALL Caucasian males in the age group I specified. Most specifically against those of darker appearance, but up against (as I said in my 2nd post) everyone of a lighter complection than black folks - who by the way have NEVER been involved in a hijacking.

Americans aren't willing to die like that. Sure you might find a couple in the US, but by and far we know it's much better to live and reap the benefits of capitalist America.

So while what you suggest *COULD* happen, to say it's *not a problem* is being dishonest to yourself. It would be extremely difficult and almost impossible. That's why as a last resort we have sky marshals with guns ready to blow away ANYONE who moves wrong on the plane.

Anyway , simply knowing that airports have racial profiling simply means that you HAVE to seek elsewhere for your suicide bombers because your usual followers would be detected. It makes it that much more difficult for you.

So what you have said is, maybe racial profiling would deter terrorists and make them seek out harder to find followers to do their deeds. And having to seek people in America, how long do you think it would take? You'd have to be careful of who you approached as many would run to the FBI first thing if you just walked up to a black guy and said "Hey, wanna learn how to fly a plane and commit suicide?"

You make it sound easier than it would be.

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The effective way to go is to infiltrate the terrorist cells and shut them down.

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Terrorist cells are next to impossible to infiltrate, and even if you do - it doesn't lead anywhere beyong that one specific cell. So we need something that is effective against a broad spectrum of terrorists. Taking out cells is no biggy, what your agent risks his life to bring down 3 or 4 other people, who can give you nothing and are willing to die before being captured.

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In the mean time, try and treat other American citizens with respect, allowing them the same freedoms you enjoy.

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I have the utmost respect for American *Citizens*. I don't really care for many foreigners coming here, spouting anti-Americanism while all the while reaping the benifits of that freedom.

[aramike]

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I never saw a grant or scholarship for a "White" person. I'm sure the shit would hit the fan if there was one... because its "discrimination" at that point. I even applied for one of them (although my GPA wasnt exactly a shining example)... the councelor in the school did not believe I was serious until I showed her my passport.

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True 'dat, Tac. The NAACP is a PRIME example of racism. Just imagine the fallout if there were an association for the advancement of caucasion people.

Legalized racism that is TRULEY racist. But racial profiling is wrong. Hmmm...

[Kush]

Again, I point out, you assume that a terrorist is going to say "Oh my goodness, this airport has racial profiling! I'm sunk. Guess I should just look elsewhere for my terror fix today!"

They're not stupid.

And they are (unfortunately) very, VERY persistent.

You make a lot of assumptions.

You assume that someone born in American would not take part in a terrorist act.

And you assume that terrorist cells are impossible to infiltrate. You greatly underestimate the skills and abilities of the FBI and the CIA. (As critical of their history as I am, not even I underestimate their ability that much!)

And finally, the scariest thing is, you may only be able to find a couple of Americans to go along with the whole plan, but that's all you need. Just a couple.

I think everyone should be on the alert. Not just the authorities, not just the INS, not just airport security, EVERYONE. And we should be looking for any suspicious activity from ANYBODY.

I think it was Gomez who said eloquently in his post, racial profiling can just become another loop hole to exploit. We should try hard to be diligent, and cautious, fair and just to all people till the situation changes.

[Kush]

Aramike,

The NAACP was started because the residents of Springfield Ill, lincoln's birthplace, tried to remove all black residents from the town through lynchings and terror.

They actually had to hold one of their meetings here in Ontario once for fear of violence.

They've gone on to force the desegregation of American public schools. So that black children can study anywhere in America they wanted.

I don't get how you can say the NAACP is a rascist organization.

I don't get it.

And Tac, if it's really true that there are absolutely no grants or scholarships for white people in America, then come on up to Canada. You'll do just fine. (If your marks are up to snuff )

[Guest $iLk]

First off :

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You make a lot of assumptions.

You assume that someone born in American would not take part in a terrorist act.

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I made no such assumption. I merely pointed out that the difficulty in obtaining supporters and the motivation for American suicide hijackings is *unlikely*.

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And you assume that terrorist cells are impossible to infiltrate. You greatly underestimate the skills and abilities of the FBI and the CIA. (As critical of their history as I am, not even I underestimate their ability that much!)

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Once again, you assume that what I clearly wrote means whatever you came up with. I merely pointed out that it is next to impossible to infiltrate a cell of well-knit terrorists, and extremely impossible to infiltrate all of them. I also pointed out that it is entirely too risky and there is no point - as terrorist cells do not know of other cells and therefore cannot give us information. By the way, it would take years to infiltrate a cell, and the person would have to trick people who are as close as brothers. Not to mention you don't know where these cells are.

Try watching that movie with Denzel Washington "THE SIEGE" and see how effective our tactics are. It's a hollywood creation, but at the same time - what if?

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And finally, the scariest thing is, you may only be able to find a couple of Americans to go along with the whole plan, but that's all you need. Just a couple.

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It also seems that other hijackings were arranged for that day and they were stopped by standard security measures. Likelihood of success, now that people are aware of it is much lower than it was before.

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I think everyone should be on the alert. Not just the authorities, not just the INS, not just airport security, EVERYONE. And we should be looking for any suspicious activity from ANYBODY.

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I agree. My whole point is simply that some pose a greater risk than others, and if someone was behind you and someone in front of you, and you had to choose which one to watch - who would it be?

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I think it was Gomez who said eloquently in his post, racial profiling can just become another loop hole to exploit. We should try hard to be diligent, and cautious, fair and just to all people till the situation changes.

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Racial profiling has been exploited by supposed "victims". Like I said in my second post, about the white cop pulling over a car in which the driver was clearly not fit to drive. First thing he hears out the window: "RACIAL PROFILING! YOU PULLED ME OVER BECAUSE I WAS BLACK"

Clearly that's not why he was pulled over, but leftists start complaining about "segregation" and "slavery" and how "the black man cannot get a fair shake in this white man's world!" etc.

Racial profiling shouldn't (as I said in my kick ass 2nd post) be used evenly all the time. But when the conditions, environment, and suspects coincide with a "profile".

If blacks are known to break into houses at a certain neighborhood at 2 in the morning. It's natural to assume that police should be on the lookout for blacks acting suspicious at 2 in the morning.

But yes it doesn't mean that white boys can't be breaking into houses too, or that blacks break into houses at 3 in the afternoon. It's saying that - a majority of breakins are done by blacks at 2 in the morning - so be more careful about keeping an eye on them AT THAT TIME.

[Kush]

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Terrorist cells are next to impossible to infiltrate, and even if you do - it doesn't lead anywhere beyong that one specific cell.

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That's what you said. And my point was that next to impossible doesn't mean impossible. Give some credit to the professionals.

And yes you can link one cell to another. It ain't easy, but it's been done.

And no, I'm not going to take a Denzel Washington movie as an indicator of what American intelligence is capable of. And I'm sure the CIA would appreciate that.

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I agree. My whole point is simply that some pose a greater risk than others, and if someone was behind you and someone in front of you, and you had to choose which one to watch - who would it be?

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Both.

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Like I said in my second post, about the white cop pulling over a car in which the driver was clearly not fit to drive. First thing he hears out the window: "RACIAL PROFILING! YOU PULLED ME OVER BECAUSE I WAS BLACK"

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A black driver can say what they like, if they were speeding they should be pulled over for speeding.

If the black driver was not speeding, was not driving eratically, was not drunk, if the only reason why the driver was pulled over was because he's black, then, hey, guess what, he was pulled over because he's black. And that's wrong.

And if a cop lets a white guy break into my house at two in the morning because usually only black people break into homes at two in the morning in my neighbourhood, then I swear I'll have his badge for breakfast.

Same thing with airport security. If I'm on a plane, going down because of some terrorist that doesn't fit some racial profile, I'll be mighty P.O'd.

What you're infering is that a police officer should allow a possible suspect commit a crime because they don't fit a racial profile. That's dangerous. And not very wise.

So if you take race out of it, then profiling is another name for looking for people who have, or are about to commit a crime. That's a good idea. Well done. Hey, wait a second, police already to that. Neat.

You may want to rethink the excellence of your second post.

[ 11-27-2001: Message edited by: Kush ]

[Guest $iLk]

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What you're infering is that a police officer should allow a possible suspect commit a crime because they don't fit a racial profile.

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What the hell are you talking about? You are reading inferences where there are none. I'm using Racial profiling as a PREVENTATIVE measure. Police need something to go by unless they are only going to REACT instead of PRE-EMPT. If a white guy is acting suspicious at 2 in the morning, then no duh he is going to be checked out.

In airports you would be madder if a white guy brought a plane down instead of an arab guy. You're equally dead either way so what's your point?

My point is to stop things BEFORE they happen. If a guy doesn't fit a profile and does something (i.e. Blacks hijacking an airplane) it's a rare occurence. It's always possible for trends to change. But right now, I'm a little bit more worried about a CLEAR AND PRESENT DANGER than I am about your hypothetical fantasies.

What if grandmas across the world picked up AK-47's and ran onto buses and shot them up? Does that sound like it would happen? By your argument it's just as likely as an arab hijacking a plane.

Why not look at the evidence of what HAS happened instead of what COULD. Arabs HAVE hijacked planes. Grandmas COULD do what I described, but to my knowledge it hasn't happened. And if I saw an Arab in front of me and a grandmother behind me. By damned I would watch the Arab. Not because it's racist. He may be a nice guy. But he poses a greater threat than Miss Daisy behind me.

Of course according to you I should watch out because she could be working for the KGB and could castrate me with a machete using only her thumb.

My point is that USAMA BIN LADEN himself has threatened to send muslims to hijack planes and crash them into tall buildings. To my knowledge white men of european decent have never carried out a suicide kamikaze attack. They have carried out hijackings. Black men have not. So my order of threats are males of ARAB or WHITE appearance aged 21-35.

Most dangerous - Arabs. Since their culture doesn't value life the way we do. There are exceptions so no need to bring up examples. By and far, a majority are a certain way.

[Kush]

I remember last year I was flying through England, and somewhere (I have no Idea where) in Heathrow, going through one of the gates, there was line up of airport security who were patting everyone down. I mean EVERYONE. We had all gone through the metal detector, we'd all checked our baggage. And I still had to get my butt patted.

I actually felt safer then when I go through security here in Canada.

I don't need to save time going through security at an airport. I arrive two hours early for a reason.

I also felt sympathy for those security people. They got their hands right in there. Between your legs, under every woman's breasts. They went right under the butt of an old lady in front of me. Imagine if it was your job to run your hands over the breasts and butt of old women, all day long.

That's gotta suck.

The more I think about it. The more I realize how hard that job must be, and how much I appreciate them.

[Fendi]

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Originally posted by Kush:

Imagine if it was your job to run your hands over the breasts and butt

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Every night mate, every night.

Oops did I cut your post of prematurely?

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And if a cop lets a white guy break into my house at two in the morning because usually only black people break into homes at two in the morning in my neighbourhood, then I swear I'll have his badge for breakfast.

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I know what you mean and yes this has happened to me because of a racist policewoman. She has the reputation of trying to arrest coloured people most of the time. I could've even sworn she was trying to protect the burguler that broke into my house as she tried her very best to avoid taking on my case. At least now she's been transfered to one of the roughest areas available. Oh yeah her new CO is a black man. Poetic justice indeed.

[aramike]

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Both.

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If the one in front of you want an elderly lady and the one behind you was dressed thug-like, I truly doubt you'd watch both.

[Põdi]

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If the one in front of you want an elderly lady

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.........then he can have an elderly lady.

Sorry aramike, I hate to take the piss out of typos, but that was kinda funny.

[Soback]

Aramike, what I want to know is what you were thinking about when you typed that?

[Soback]

I mean, "N" and "T" is a littel far from the "S" so it's not just like your finger just slipped.

[aramike]

ROFLMAO!!! It's called trying to type too fast. When I type, common words are on autopilot, so sometimes "what" comes out as "was", etc. That happens more than you guys know (I catch most slips).

[Urza]

I have no objection to racial profiling in any form. In fact, I'd encourage it. If it's been statisticly proven that blacks are more likely to commit crimes, for example, I'd want them to be more heavily monitored.

$iLk's argument in the middle of the first page says it all.

[Soback]

Urza, in my opinion you are missing the point. Profiling should be implemented and tailored to the area where it's implemented. It's a mistake to say that black people commit more crimes or that all hijakers will be Arabs. My view is, you have to custom fit racial profiling. Watch Arab people closer around airports in America in general because they are the ones who commit most of the hijackings in this country, some other country might have some other race commiting most of the hijackings, and black people might commit more crimes in certain cities, in other cities white people commit majority of the crimes, Sacramento is an example. So you can't just say watch Arabs all over the world for airplane hijackings and black people for roberies, you need to say watch Arabic people around high security areas and where there are huge crowd gatherings in America for possible terrorist activity, watch black people more closely in A,B and C cities for this type of crime, watch hispanic people in D,F cities, watch white people in E and W cities, and then change it based on crime and what race comits most of the crime in that area data. That just makes more sense to me.

[ 11-29-2001: Message edited by: Soback ]

[Kush]

And my point is watch ALL people, ALL the time.

If you set up racial criterea for security, it becomes an exploit.

(ie Mr Arab terrorist gets unscupolous caucasian grandmother to hold onto butcher knife, tell security it's a gift for her daughter. On plane Mr Arab terrorist now has weapon.)

You think focusing on one race improves security better than focusing on all races?

I know it now becomes a pain to have greater security, it's a pain to have someone go through your stuff with a fine tooth comb when you know that you're not a terrorist, and you should just be able to scoot through, but that's not the world we live in anymore.

In Toronto, one way to save your seat in a restaurant is to leave your bag at a table. I did that once in London Eng, and a bartender gave me the scare of my life. It had nothing to do with race. No bags left unattended. Period. Ever. It's a security measure that Londoners have come to just accept as a part of their lives. It sucks, but that's the way it is. The bartender doesn't say, 'Excuse me, you wouldn't happen to be of Irish heritage would you? No? Great, you can leave your bag anywhere you want.' 'What's your name? Patrick O'Flannagan? Sorry, you're going to have to keep your bag with you at all times.'

And the police should just focus on the activity of the person. Not the race. If a black guy anywhere in the country, dressed like a gang memeber starts walking around the back of a house that doesn't belong to him, take him to the station. If a black guy starts walking around the back of the house after getting out of a gas company truck, and he's got a clip board to do a reading of the gas meter, then you're wasting an officers time to send him on a wild goose chase, just because one race commits crime in one area more than another.

And if a white guy smashes a window, hops in the house, and walks out of the house with a TV set. ARREST HIM for crying out loud.

It's behaviour, what is the person doing. Not race.

[ 11-29-2001: Message edited by: Kush ]

[Urza]

OK, sorry if my example was a little too general.

[Guest $iLk]

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(ie Mr Arab terrorist gets unscupolous caucasian grandmother to hold onto butcher knife, tell security it's a gift for her daughter. On plane Mr Arab terrorist now has weapon.)

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And security refuses to hear any of it and confiscates it, along with the grandmothers fingernail clippers, fingernail file, sewing needles, sharp pens, etc.

Security allows *nothing* through the gate that could possibly ever be concieved of being used as a weapon. That's like a terrorist coming up to me and saying, "Here man hold this Mac 10 for me, tell security it's a gift for your daughter."

I assume that would be foolproof, since already two people have been arrested after turning guns in to police and saying they accidentally took them through security and wanted to turn them in.

So much for doing the right thing.

[Kush]

Then we agree.

[Fendi]

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In Toronto, one way to save your seat in a restaurant is to leave your bag at a table.

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In my neighbourhood that's one way of losing your bag and all it's content.

By the way Ireland is a peaceful country. The trouble comes from Northern Ireland which is part of UK (sill in debate) which by the way represents a small number of the population. It really gets to me when people say stuff about my Irish friends here back home as they are all assumed to be terrorrists even though they come from Rep of Ireland. Guess they know now how the Arabs felt.

[Guest $iLk]

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Then we agree.

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Only if agreeing means that it doesn't matter what race anyone is, they won't be allowed onto a plane with a weapon.

You have made the mistake of assuming that racial profiling means ignoring everyone not of a specific race if they are in an area that is predominatly criminalized by a different race.

In fact I have addressed this several times throughout this thread.

While Arabs are most likely to be terrorists, in your activities to focus on them, you cannot ignore other possible threats. But at the same time, you wouldn't just let anyone through if they are not of a certain race. Grandmothers and little kids shouldn't be patted down. If they go through a metal detector and set it off, run the wand over them and see what they have. Everyone's bags should be checked through the XRAY maching. All males who set off a metal detector should have the wand put over them and patted down. All arab males should be patted down regardless. Any males of other races should be randomly searched. Which keeps airlines moving instead of getting locked down where planes can't land or leave.

[Kush]

What I have said, in this thread, over and over again, is check everybody. Regardless of race. At all times.

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All males who set off a metal detector should have the wand put over them and patted down. All arab males should be patted down regardless.

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Right there you have a security loop hole. First loop hole, Arab meaning from where? Iran? The Arab Emirates (A U.S. Ally)? Kuwait (Another ally)? Afghanistan? Remember, Osama isn't from Afghanistan, he's from Egypt. What about Jews who live in Iraq, and Kuwait, and Afghanistan? What about the Christians? What about terroritst who are muslim, but not from the middle east. There are muslims from Pakistan. Do we consider them Arab or South Asian? What about Muslims from south Sahara Africa? Are they Arab? Let's say you mean all middle Eastern Muslims, second loophole, how are you going to tell a male is Arab? Their skin colour? Their nose? I worked with someone two years ago, palestinian, he had blond hair, blue eyes. Why? I don't know. Obviously somewhere in his families genes they have what it takes to make blond blue eyed offspring. Alas, these are few and I'm sure far between, so lets say any male with dark skin, and a nose of a certain shape. Third loophole, if I know you only pat down Arab males, what if I get an Arab female. Fourth loophole; there are still threats from people who aren't arab, fellow Americans, who in their misguided thinking, want to create terror and havok. American's who don't look Arab, and who maybe need a patting down before they enter a plane.

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All males who set off a metal detector should have the wand put over them and patted down. All arab males should be patted down regardless.

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The moment you say a higher security standard should be set for a particular race, that means those not of that race have a lesser security standard to pass through. That can be exploited. Personally, right now, before I get on a plane, I want the highest security standard met by all people. I'm a nervous flyer already. When the big event happened, it became crystal clear that these people, these terrorists are more than capable of shrewdly exploiting any and all weaknesses in the system. What I felt, right after, and what I still feel, is that all security exploits must be found and plugged. ALL. Every one.

The reason why I am so emphatic about this, is because it is so obvious the terrorists are capable of highly sophisticated operations. And we should step up our security in any and every way concievable. I don't want to be on a plane, plummeting into a building thinking, "Those clever b%$%s! I never would have thought of that!"

It may suck rocks that we have to wait in line longer, it may really be annoying for some clerk to go through my bag, and pat me down, but I would rather have them get too cautious. I'd feel a little nervous if some security guy looked at me and winked assuming I was okay just because I didn't look like an arab.

And I'm certain that any terrorist would shrug off any racial profiling, and say it's just another loophole to exploit, and a pretty easy one at that.

[ 12-01-2001: Message edited by: Kush ]

[Põdi]

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It really gets to me when people say stuff about my Irish friends here back home as they are all assumed to be terrorrists even though they come from Rep of Ireland. Guess they know now how the Arabs felt.

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I know what you mean Fendi, my wife is from a town just outside Belfast. When people over here find out she is Irish and I'm English, they seem surprised that we are together as they assume that the Irish and English detest each other with a passion. Talk about preconceptions. They also assume that Northern Ireland is a battleground, with 'peace walls' separating communities all over the place. Needless to say that's a load of bollocks. I've been to NI numerous times and have only encountered any problem just the once; we'd been out to dinner in belfast and HAD JUST paid the bill, when the restaurant had to be evacuated because of a bomb scare. 10 minutes earlier, and we'd have had a free meal.

[Fendi]

The trouble is the real IRA are nothing more than gangsters like the Mafia. They're not really interested in peace or stuff like that. All they want to do is to is make a profit and be feared. After we clean up Al Qaeda (sp?) we should have a war on organized crime and drugs.....er wait that didn't go down well right?

My only qualms about Ireland is Guiness. Why is it that the Guiness there taste like heaven and the one that we get internationally taste like p*ss.