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Bush grabs new powers for FBI


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quote:

Originally posted by Kalshion:

Why are we comparing? I mean if you and I have different views on what a Republican and a Democrate are then isn't it kinda POINTLESS? You will most likely discredit what I said and I'll most likely discredit what you say.. So tell me why where comparing if it won't solve a thing?

To prove a point. The truth is I didn't actually want you to compare. And I'm not attacking you directly, I'm simply retorting your comment, thats what you do in a debate.

My point is that both parties attack each other to discredit them, just as comparing what each stands fore does. What the people have to do is to start widening their perspective on politics.

This includes the people in this discussion, we all do it, and we need to really re-examine our political standpoint.

And Kal, try watching some other news programs along with Fox News. My High School Government teacher had us do an exercise once where we all had to watch CNN and Fox news, then compare the news reports. Try this. Actually, everyone who wants to should try this.

Now I've got to go to my Theatre Design class. (College sucks sometimes...)

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Kal Iused a lightbulb smilie cause I want to enlighten you. I am not trying to convince you of the evil of the Republican party. I am asking that you entertain an idea that differs from your own personal philosophy. I mean no disrespect but my guess is you are pretty young and while that explains a lot it is certainly no crime. It is my opinion that if you have never agreed with a so called liberal on anything, you havent looked at things very closely. I'l bet Joe Lieberman is more conservative than a third of the senatorin the Republican majority. Arlen Spector R-PA is more moderate than Liberman on a lot of issues. You should resist adhering to labels and look a little deeper.

For example, I still feel that we attacked Iraq to advance a major shift in american foriegn policy called preemption. As I've stated earlier in quoting a source at Stratfor.com(a global intelleigence web site that is decidely NOT liberal) We sought to go from being viewed as hated and powerless in that region to hated and feared. You should read some stuff on Paul Wolfowitz , Bill Cristol and the other hawks who drafted this policy during the first Bush Admin. Bush senior didnt go for it for reasons of his own. I hate Fox news but watch it faithfully because I want to see the whole picture. Not just waht the Democratic leadership wants us to see. You my boy should try and do the same. If nothing else it will broaden your horizon.

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i think it's too soon to say America is gonig bye-bye if the next president or bush or that the republicans or democrats are no guilt of anything.

every1 makes mistakes and let's hpe these msitakes made by our counrty won't affect the future in a negative way.

well my $2. *grabs some popcorn* make some room eh?

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quote:

Originally posted by Masefield:

This sure is better than The Apprentice.

Glad you people are enjoying yourself, im sure SC is enjoying himself.

As much as I'd like to agree with you Elio, seriously I would. After what I've seen going in the school system and such, the probability of the next generation destroying america is very very high.

Im going to use an example

back in my 7th grade year, I attended one of the better middle schools. No crime, No gangs, No fights and stuff, maybe a little skirmish here or two but what school DOESN'T have those? *even private schools have them*

Well back then there are hardly no problems with the students and everyone obeyed the teachers, which is what I liked because when your in school your in school to L-E-A-R-N, which is a word many students don't know now-a-days or just don't give a shit

Now look... im in the 12th grade and the middle I used to go to is now the states number 1 WORST middle schools

Gangs

Fights

High Crime

The school is all black and hispanic and no im trying to be racist here so keep your pants on

Its a true fact that Blacks and Hispanics don't get along to well and tend to fight and so that is.. EVERYDAY I read something about that middle school

Gang one does this to gang two and so forth, its Insane to be honest. And then we have this

"No Child Shall Be Left Behind", Law... you wanna know what i say to that law?

SCREW IT! Burn IT!, all its doing is OVER CROWDING the schools! If a student doesn't want to learn DO NOT FORCE HIM cause all that'll do is cause a shit load of problems

For example

Theres a hispanic student in my english class, he's ALWAYS coming into class talking about the lakers did this and that. The teacher tells him to shut up and he bad mouths her, can she do anything? Nope... why? Cause it just so happens the school district doesn't have enough guts to expel a student.. kick them out of school

For fighting, a prime example is what happened to me today

During my 4th hour, which is study skills mind you, a freshmen enjoys harassing me like hell while im writing my storys.. why do I write storys? Because I love to!, I don't play games much (except BCMG which is where I get a lot of my idea's from), I love writing and I love using my imagination. Today while i was working he grabed my A disk (which held not only my storys but also a project from the DEAN) and snapped the disk in two...

You wanna know happened next? Well lets see.. the disk is MY property, I was intrusted with a very important file, and now its destroyed all because this freshmen doesn't like it when im writing my storys. I beat the crap out of him, did the school do anything to me? nope.. why? Cause it was considered self defense and also the freshmen is at fault because he not only provoked me.. but also took something of mine and destroyed it.

Lucky for me I keep back ups on a second disk, (Im not dumb.. I have a second disk where I had the DEANS project on along with my story.. but do either one know that? Nope)

I can be nice, loyal,respectful and curtious when im in a good mood... but provoke me and start a fight and you'll certainly end up in the hospital, Im not a black belt in Shatokan and Korean martial arts for nothing.

Ooooops... sorry about that went off topic =

Anywho to conclude, a student now-a-days doesn't care about another students property if they want it they'll take it if they don't like it they'll destroy it. Why? Cause its what where teaching students now-a-days, the school system is to corrupt and I blame the government in general because they got INVOLVED. EVER since the government got involved our educational level's have gone down to a mear JOKE

Why do you think Countrys like Japan and England graduate such smart people? Because they don't have to worry about the problems that we have, I heard the education in Japan is exceptional. And my father wanted to send me there but with no one to stay with that would be impossible

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Viva La Bush ! I knew he'd come around for me eventually. (I wonder what back-room deal was worked out with Vicente Fox over that decision). This is exactly the shot in the arm that Howard Dean needed. As my amigos flow over the border like water in search of the American dream, Gringos across the nation will be denouncing Senor Bush and staying away from the polls come election time. Yeeeeeeeeeeeehaaaaaaaa!Ayayayayayay!

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quote:

Originally posted by LostInSpace:

Okay, after reading all the comments above I'm still flipping a coin as to what's worse: Grabing new young Interns or Grabing new powers.

It all boils down to how many people get screwed at one time.

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quote:

"All things considered, this was a loss for civil liberties," he said. But on a brighter note, "this was the only provision of Patriot II that made it through this year. Members are hearing from their constituents. I really think we have the ability to stop much of this Patriot Act II legislation in the future."


Okay damn it... I read several different quotes of this double-speak throughout this article.

All these people who say "Oh that's terrible it snuck through!" and say they don't support it yet voted for it anyway.

Why can't they just draft a new law that will remove that provision from the old one?

If it's a loss for civil liberties... why can't they do a line-item on it. I'm tired of B.S. riders on a bill that have nothing to do with the original bill statement clause.

When are people going to step up and say enough is enough? The FIT, and SIT committees enjoy the complacency being show as more and more of our tax dollars are being sucked down this big black hole abyss.

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quote:

As much as I'd like to agree with you Elio, seriously I would. After what I've seen going in the school system and such, the probability of the next generation destroying america is very very high.


i have to admit that things in school don't go so smooth. kids in my school are pretty rampant in class.

but i think after what we all witnessed on 9/11 should prevent that from happening.

maybe it's blind hope or maybe i'm right.i'm not sure

*eats some popcorn*

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Good Morning all.

First off, the United States as the founders pictured it, no longer exists.

This country is becoming a socialist society.

When the producers are taxed, and then that money is redistributed to the dolists or nonproducers, it is becoming socialist.

The prescription drug bill is something that I am VERY angry with Bush about, as well as his no child left behind bill. The Fed's aren't allowed this sort of crap via the constitution.

They are both vote buying schemes, just as medicare, welfare, social security, etc et ad nauseum.

When the dolists outnumber the producers is when there is going to be a HUGE problem. Welfare reform is a joke, it may seem to be working, but all it does is make it possible, although unlikely that a dolist will become a producer.

What is the average tax rate now?

Around 40%, do you know the American Revolution was started over a 1/2 of 1% tax on tea? That's what got the whole thing rolling, and yet OUR own government taxes us at insane rates, and that is NOT counting all the hidden taxes that you pay.

I hear all this crap about how greeedy corporations are and that we should tax them, well, guess what, YOU end up paying those taxes. Every new tax, no matter what form or whom they claim pays it, comes out of YOUR pocket in one way shape or form.

Clinton was one of the worst tax and spenders there were, but guess what, Bush is making him look like scrooge comparably. THe federal budget has skyrocketed with Bush and his socalleed republicans and the democrats are going crazy because now the republicans are buying votes and they look like fools.

The Republicans and Democrats in this country are becoming one and the same party, they might as well join up and become one party, they spend the same, they pass the same BS laws, and they couldn't give a flip about what the constitution says.

We now have a choice of the lesser of 2 evils, the Republicans, who are Socialist light, and the Democrats who are socialist heavy. Either one are going to destroy this country and the document it was founded on.

Do you know what an excise tax is? You pay them on tires, and other commodities that are used in wartime. They started in wartime, and then congress never put a sunset clause on them, now rescinded them after the war was over, why? because they needed that money for their vote buying schemes.

The United States as it was supposed to exist, does not exist, and NEVER will again, and in the next 10-20 years, it will self destruct from it's own weight.

We are beyond redemption as far as the government is concerned, and we are beyond redemption as far as the economy is concerned. All those wonderful economic indicators etc, and how wonderful the economy is going, all smoke and mirrors, yeah, it may look nice, but if I lowered interest rates so that people borrowed more, you bet the economy would look good, the problem is that there is NOTHING to back up all this new money, it is based on a fallacy. Sad, but true.

Our governments economic policy, lower interest rates, create more money, lend it to the consumers, they will spend it, pay interest on it, and all that fake money looks real, problem is, all this spending will come back and bite them. Savings is what counts, NOT spending, but spending is what makes the economy "move", but it is catching up with us, and it is going to make the depression look like an outing in the park.

The money does not exist, it is not backed up by anything but the governments word of honor, and that word no longer has any honor with me, when this whole house of cars that has been created since the thirties collapses, the world economy is going to with it and so will the government of this country.

I am an optimist too, and I actually believe this is going to happen, but it probably will be much worse then I imagine.

I am a republican only because they are the lesser of 2 evils, but if an ACTUAL conservative/constitutional party were created, and had any chance at all of winning elections, I would join it in a heartbeat.

I like Bush, only because he is better then ANY Democrat candidate, the destruction will slow with him, only because I trust him not to abuse power, but the next democrat in office will have an opportunity to accelerate us to destruction, and not a physical destruction, although that will happen, but a total and absolute economic collapse.

It is going to happen, it is just a matter of time.

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Nothing can be done, it's called sit and wait, and prepare if you think it's actually going to happen.

Problem is that I am a student of history, and history show that when a country does this, it collapses, no if's and's or but's.

People tell me that I am nuts and that it will never happen, problem is that is has happened numerous times, from the Roman Empire to Athens, all democracies have fallen from within from loose fiscal policies, Bread and circuses is what they are called and socialistic fantasies in order to make life fair.

When a society begins down the road to Financial fairness, the entire house of cards will come tumbling down, because there is NO economic fairness, no such animal, once you try and take greed out of the equation, which I am afraid is a major human motivation, then it is on it's way to collapse.

Nothing can be done about it, because it has gone too far, there are too many people that believe that the government will take care of them and that they deserve whatever the governemtn can give them.

History repeats, because people are too stupid to listen to it.

I listen, and the wrting is on the wall.

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If I remember correctly, our current federal income tax was set up to pay for the Civil War (according to The History Channel). So, if history does, indeed, repeat itself, look for another "temporary" tax to pay for the current war.

What Jaguar says about both parties is true. Ralph Nader complained about the same thing (but for totally different reasons, obviously).

Personally, I think it's all about the corruption of ideas ... the Constitution being the list of ideas that's most often corrupted. Social Security is another ... orignially set up as a hedge against another stock-market-induced Great Depression. Yet, with history forgotten, the fund's purpose has been distorted. Ironically, some oh-so-wise politicians even want to take that very hedge and put it in that very same stock market.

And now Bush wants to shoot for the moon. Appropriate. As a Sci-Fif fan from way back, I'd love to see a colony on the moon ... far away from all our current troubles. I'd also love a high-definition wall-to-wall plasma video screen. But I'm not gonna hock my kids' college fund to get it.

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I can't believe it. I finally agree with Jag on a political viewpoint. The democratic party and the republican party are one in the same. However, Jag fails to point out why the economy SKYROCKETED during the Clinton (evil demon) administration. I'm sure he has an enlightening story for that one. Please....enlighten us. In the meantime, both myself and my socialist comrades will be preparing in the corner for our revolution. Hasta La Victoria Siempre...

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quote:

Originally posted by El Che:

I can't believe it. I finally agree with Jag on a political viewpoint. The democratic party and the republican party are one in the same. However, Jag fails to point out why the economy SKYROCKETED during the Clinton (evil demon) administration. I'm sure he has an enlightening story for that one. Please....enlighten us. In the meantime, both myself and my socialist comrades will be preparing in the corner for our revolution. Hasta La Victoria Siempre...

Oh please, you cannot be this naive....

First off any administrations economic policy will take anywhere from 3-10 years to take effect, all depending on how bad the economy was when they inherited it.

Reagan inherited a disaster, a complete and total meltdown. His policies began to kick in after about his 3rd year of his 2nd term and then steamrolled from there.

The economy became so strong that there was really no way that any democrat could screw it up, but Clinton did in fact screw it up, why do you think Bush inherited a recession?

It was just getting started when Bush took over and put a stop to it and it took over a year to do it.

It's still a fiction as far as I am concerned because it is based on funny money, and will, sooner or later, collapse in upon itself.

Any economy based on borrowing will sooner or later bash itself against an economic wall.

The American people are in debt like never before, and a higher percentage of that debt is nonsecured, in other words, there is nothing to collateralize that debt, and based on very high interest rates. It's one of the fastest way for the banks to get hold of real money as they are lending funny money.

Reagans economy was based more on what you would call real money, investement etc, this one is based more on borrowing and spending by the consumer, instead of creating real wealth.

I hope you understand the difference, because I am not going into an explanation of it in this thread.

Anyway, the economy is now "booming" or getting back up there, the Dow is above 10,000, and it has nothing to back it up, again, it is based on debt, not wealth, and corporations are playing all kinds of money games in order for their stock to look like it is worth more then it is.

Reagans economy was real, it was based on wealth creation, not debt creation, Clintons policy was tax and spend, and now Bushs policy is borrow and spend. Clintons policy was wrong, and now Bushes policy is wrong, because short term it looks great, but long term it will be disastrous. BUT, it was really the only choice Bush had, to make the economy look like it was moving again.

Americans have a short attention span, and if they don't see immediate results they get angry, they had patience with Reagan, only because he got something that couldn't have gotten much worse, but it took longer because it was as real as this economy can be, considering the central banking system and the monetary system based on fantasy that we have. He was also vastly popular with the people, We Americans, or a vast majority of us, LOVED Reagan, absolutely adored him.

Bush the Father did not have that popularity, except a short time during the Gulf war, Clinton NEVER had it, and Bush does not have the personal presence and self confidence that Reagan had, so he will never have the popularity that Reagan had, besides the fact that the election was questionable to a lot of Democrats, though how they are stupid enough to not understand what happened is beyond me.

So, anyway, I have led you to the water, now it up to you to see if you can handle taking a drink, can you?

Your entire worldview could turn upside down, so maybe not.

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quote:

Originally posted by LordDavid:

Hey Jaguar, ever thought of running for president? You'll have my vote!

(though chances of you being elected..... probably not exactly the greatest )

Thank you for the vote of confidence, but the fact of the matter is, if I was ever elected president this country would have th biggest slide into economic chaos that it has ever had, at least for a short period.

I would do a number of things, first I would do what I could to get rid of all Unconstitutional programs, this would include the following.

1: Medicare, Social Security and all social programs at the federal level would either be gotten rid of totally, privatized, or given over to state and local control.

2: The monetary standard would be put back on the gold standard and the banking system gutted and started over, the central banking system would be totally destroyed.

3: The incom,e tax would be gotten rid of, and the federal government would go on a huge fiscal diet, a flat 5% sales tax would be all that the government would get, as well as any tariffs etc that it was able to collect from imports etc.

4: All imports would have tariffs on them, any products made in China would have at least a 20% tariff on them, any product made with slave or close to slave labor would have a 50% tariff on them.

5: Corporations that were international corporations and did business in the US would pay the SAME taxes as domestic corporations, NO loopholes for them. They would be answerable to us.

6: ALL unconstitutional laws would be tossed before the supreme court and questioned, and ALL beauracracies would be gutted, their policies questioned and brought under control.

7: The NEA and other national organizations would not be allowed to lobby congress, because the feds would have NOTHING to do with it, all educational policies would be handed back to the states, the feds would be taken TOTALLY out of the picture.

Basically, I would gut the federal government, give ALL that power back to the states, as the 10th amendment states, and then watch as the economy floundered around for about 5-10 years before it finally got back on it's feet by itself and started booming on it's own, and all the downward turns and upward turns that come with such an economy, and I would make sure that those economic turns were not messed with by the government in any way. They are a natural part of the equilibrium of a capitalist free enterprise soiciety, and those downward turns are needed in order for it to remain strong.

So, no, I would never be elected president because I would destroy the country as it now exists, and create the one that the founders originally intended.

Also, I would make darn sure that ALL the states complied with the federal bill of rights, they could create no laws that went againt them, they would have to comply with the 14th amendment. Also, any state that was floundering around economically, such as California, would be on it's own. We would basically have 50 states, each experimenting with their own ecnomic policy, you would see that those states that tried to control and tax the heck out of their economies would flounder, as those that leave their economies alone and tax it only enough to keep existing programs going, would prosper.

You would also see citizens choosing the state they live in based on those economic policies of each state, unlike what it is more like now, because the feds control a lot of what the states are able to do. There will be NO federal control over any states policies, it would sink or swim based on it's own decisions.

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Jaguar, IÔÇÖm a little confused on a few of your points.

If Clintons policy was tax and spend, where did the surplus come from? You know the one  Bush used it to initiate his global war. Was it, like the current economic growth, simply funny money? If so, how?

You want no federal control over the (federation of) states or any states policies but, nonetheless, you want all states to comply with a federal bill of rights? How would the federal government enforce such a bill  without being hypocritical about it?

And how could a gutted federal government enforce anything? How do we support the military? Or the CIA? Does each state build its own defense force?

As for California, we could sell it to the highest bidding foreign country. The immediate revenue would give the U.S. a big boost  until Congress spends it all. Then we would be left with even a bigger problem, having sold off the goose that lays the golden egg (a lot of revenue comes from California  even if its limited to a 5% sales tax).

But wait. If we did sell California, where would the money go? With no central bank, would you still maintain the Federal Reserve? Or do the states divide the gold and each state start printing its own money again?

What about other federal offices? Naturally, you would remain President after your policies were put into law but, considering your emphasis on statesÔÇÖ rights, could one or more state governors circumvent your policies?

Finally, what powers would the Supreme Court retain? Assuming the current Court didnÔÇÖt find your entire prescription to be unconstitutional (per item 6), what powers would they proscribe for themselves? Do you think theyÔÇÖd really give up anything?

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Marvin, you didn't seem to get it did you?

Read the Constitution, there is nothing about ANY of those points that is against it, as a matter of fact half of them are pointed out explicitly.

The banking part, spelled out in the constitution, states rights, spelled out in the constitution, military, spelled out in the constitution, FBI/CIA, still acceptable as federal agencies under the constitution. ETC, ETC, please read the constitution, learn it, live it, love it. Read it and you will see exactly where and how the money and power goes.

2nd of, the socalled surplus came from the Reagan economy, and the Republican congress keeping Clintons spending under control, now we have a Republican congress and a republican president who have learned what power feels like and they are being just as bad as the Democrats ever could have been.

The 2 parties are both power hungry vote buying machines, and the money they use to buy those votes is our money.

They love to play Robin Hood, but they get a kickback. and it's our money that they play it with.

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Jaguar.. ever thought of teaching a government class?

Anywho, I agree with what your saying.. damn man you said it better than me, guess thats not surprising since I do have bad explaining skills (when it comes to politics and such)

However, if you where to become president.. you would only last one week. Why?, cause the CIA or FBI would have you removed from office by spoutting lies and, if that didn't work, you would be assassinated on the spot only it would look like a normal death

Face it people, the FBI and CIA don't want a PERFECT president. All they want are power hungry SOBs who don't care about this country

I mean, like I said before

Lets look at the school systen and that poor excuse for a law "No Child Shall Be Left Behind"

Im pretty sure Jaguar will say its shit

Lets face it. That bill is only causing us MORE problems, we have students in the schools who DON'T want to learn and yet there being forced to by this stupid bill and all they do is cause problems

Face it people, the longer this bill stays in cerculation, the more problems where going to have with our schools.. where already over-crowded because of it

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quote:

Originally posted by Jaguar:

the socalled surplus came from the Reagan economy, and the Republican congress keeping Clintons spending under control, now we have a Republican congress and a republican president who have learned what power feels like and they are being just as bad as the Democrats ever could have been.

I really don't care where the money came from. But, from what you said, I assume you believe it was, nonetheless, real money.

That being the case, how much of it do you think would've been placed in surplus if Clinton had never been President and, instead, we went from one Bush to the next? Be honest.

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quote:

Originally posted by Marvin:

quote:

Originally posted by Jaguar:

the socalled surplus came from the Reagan economy, and the Republican congress keeping Clintons spending under control, now we have a Republican congress and a republican president who have learned what power feels like and they are being just as bad as the Democrats ever could have been.

I really don't care where the money came from. But, from what you said, I assume you believe it was, nonetheless, real money.

That being the case, how much of it do you think would've been placed in surplus if Clinton had never been President and, instead, we went from one Bush to the next? Be honest.


It was as real as you can get with this fiat money we use for cash transactions.

If Clinton had never been elected, we would never have had a Republican congress, therefore the socalled surplus would have been pretty much gone as soon as it hit the treasury.

The Democrats LOVE to spend money on social programs, and guess what, the Republicans now do as well. During the Reagan Years it was the Republicans who were fiscal conservatives, and the Dem's who were money spending vote buying freaks. Now, it's both parties that are doing it.

I will admit though that the Republicans are doing it only because they can steal Democrat voters because of those programs, but it still does not make it right.

The old Republican party is dead, Reagan Republicans are long gone, or have been silenced into submission by the leftists in the party.

I am a Reagan Republican, but I am also a constitutionalist, therefore, the current Republicans do nothing but piss me off with their vote buying schemes and socialist tendencies. I was hoping this country would last my childrens lifetime, but that ain't gonna happen now, we have gone too far too fast, and it's all downhill from here.

I despise Democrats, and at this point in time, I really REALLY dislike Republicans!! I still trust Bush to NOT abuse the power he's taken/given, but the next Democrat president, it's all over, and that's a fact. If a Democrat is voted into office, I am heading for the hills and disapearing, because of my views, I will be on top of the old hitlist, and I have made my views known a lot farther then this website, let me tell you.

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