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Whose fault was it? Romans Or Jews


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God cannot be tested scientifically because it is assumed that God has physical form which defies cause and effect.

What created everything?

John Chapter 1 goes into detail.

You cannot jab God with a needle and stick it in a test tube. Thus you are never going to convince anyone through science - but it's important for scientists to understand that theorizing possible answers to questions they won't admit they don't have the answer to is no better course.

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Hmmm. I hope I donÔÇÖt get into trouble for bringing this thread back to life again (and back on topic again ), but there were some things I felt went unsaid.

According to the most reliable records we have (for a longer look at some of the evidence for their reliability you could also start here) the blame could be placed at the feet of Pilate, the Jewish religious authorities at the time or the mob that shouted for his death (ÔÇÿnever underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbersÔÇÖ is a saying I often see quoted on these forums, in various discussions)

Since Israel at the time was an occupied country (by those cute and cuddly Romans), the Jews were not allowed to put anyone to death. (The Pharisees used this fact to attempt to trap Jesus with the woman caught in the act of adultery (John 8:1-11). According to Jewish law she should be stoned to death, so if he said stone her then they could take him before the Roman authorities, if he said donÔÇÖt stone her then they could tell everyone he didnÔÇÖt obey Jewish laws. He got out of that one very successfully.)

The Jewish religious authorities wanted to get rid of Jesus for various reasons (jealousy, hatred for exposing their corruption, fear of an uprising against Rome and the resulting Roman repression, Jesus disobedience of their traditions and his blasphemous claims about himself) but they didnÔÇÖt have the authority, so they had to get the Romans to do it.

Pilate, as procurator of Imperial Rome in Palestine, had the authority (and the temperament) to refuse their request, and to violently break up the restless mob that shouted for JesusÔÇÖ crucifixion. Instead he acted very out of character that day and tried to shift the responsibility for the whole matter elsewhere, first to the Jewish authorities, then to Herod, and even to the crowd, eventually giving in to their demand, and ordering the execution of someone, who in his own words had ÔÇ£done nothing to deserve death.ÔÇØ Luke 23:15 (NIV)

Then we have the roman soldiers, who beat, flogged, mocked and crucified him (and the Jewish Temple guards who also beat him and made fun of him before that). They were not involved in the decision-making process, and were ÔÇÿjust following ordersÔÇÖ, but they did so in a cruel and gleefully sadistic way (as they had no doubt done with many previous condemned prisoners) so they donÔÇÖt exactly come out of this affair smelling of roses.

Without PilateÔÇÖs permission, despite his efforts to wriggle out of it, the crucifixion wouldnÔÇÖt have happened, so he is responsible.

The whole idea came from the Jewish authorities, and they also incited the crowd to shout for his death, so without their part, the crucifixion wouldnÔÇÖt have happened, so they are responsible.

The crowd also played their part, swaying Pilate when it seemed he had finally decided to refuse the authoritiesÔÇÖ request. WeÔÇÖll never know how much work it took on the Jewish authorityÔÇÖs side to turn them into a bloodthirsty mob, but in general inciting mobs to violence is a whole lot easier than calming them down. Without their part, the crucifixion probably wouldnÔÇÖt have happened, and even if it would have happened without them, they were demanding something that was granted to them, so they are guilty of at least conspiracy. They are also responsible.

For looking at the reasonÔÇÖs for PilateÔÇÖs unusual behaviour, and most of the events surrounding the crucifixion, I would recommend ÔÇÿWho moved the stone?ÔÇÖ by Frank Morrison. ItÔÇÖs an old one, but deals with the issues very well.

So all three of them played their part in making it happen, but mainly the Jewish religious authorities of the time.

Does this make this generation worse than any other? Not really, earlier generations had done similar things, this one was just given the opportunity to do something truly awful, and took it wholeheartedly.

Does this make the Jewish culture worse than all the others? No. Other cultures have done similar things throughout history, and whoÔÇÖs to say they wouldnÔÇÖt have reacted in the same way to Jesus had he appeared in them?

Do I hold todayÔÇÖs Jews responsible for JesusÔÇÖ death? No.

Did the Jews stop being GodÔÇÖs chosen people? No, God is still fulfilling his promises to the Jews, including the restoration of Israel less than a century ago.

Do I agree with everything the church has done throughout history? No.

Do I consider myself better than the Jews of JesusÔÇÖ generation? No, not in any meaningful way.

Anyway, I just felt I had to say all that (I know the thread hasn't been about this subject for a looong time, so sorry if anyone is upset)

Later,

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