Patriot Act : Reality Check

[street228]

quote:

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posted by $iLk on 04-22-2004 11:55 AM "Heil Bush!"

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The President:

"By the way, the reason I bring up the Patriot Act, itÔÇÖs set to expire next year. IÔÇÖm starting a campaign to make it clear to members of Congress that it shouldnÔÇÖt expire. It shouldnÔÇÖt expire for the security of our country."

The Truth:

Less that 10 percent of the Patriot Act expires; most of the law is permanent and those portions that do sunset will not do so until December 31, 2005.

The President:

"And that changed, the law changed on- roving wiretaps were available for chasing down drug lords. They werenÔÇÖt available for chasing down terrorists, see?"

The Truth:

Roving wiretaps were available prior to 9/11 against drug lords and terrorists. Prior to the law, the FBI could get a roving wiretap against both when it had probable cause of crime for a wiretap eligible offense. What the Patriot Act did is make roving wiretaps available in intelligence investigations supervised by the secret intelligence court without the judicial safeguards of the criminal wiretap statute.

The President:

" see, Im not a lawyer, so its kind of hard for me to kind of get bogged down in the law. (Applause). Im not going to play like one, either. (Laughter.) The way I viewed it, if I can just put it in simple terms, is that one part of the FBI couldnt tell the other part of the FBI vital information because of the law. And the CIA and the FBI couldnt talk."

The Truth:

The CIA and the FBI could talk and did. As Janet Reno wrote in prepared testimony before the 9/11 commission, "There are simply no walls or restrictions on sharing the vast majority of counterterrorism information. There are no legal restrictions at all on the ability of the members of the intelligence community to share intelligence information with each other.

"With respect to sharing between intelligence investigators and criminal investigators, information learned as a result of a physical surveillance or from a confidential informant can be legally shared without restriction.

"While there were restrictions placed on information gathered by criminal investigators as a result of grand jury investigations or Title III wire taps, in practice they did not prove to be a serious impediment since there was very little significant information that could not be shared."

The President:

"Thirdly, to give you an example of what were talking about, theres something called delayed-notification search warrants.  We couldnt use these against terrorists [before the Patriot Act], but we could use against gangs."

The Truth:

Delayed-notification - or so-called sneak-and-peek search warrants - were never limited to gangs. The circuit courts that had authorized them in limited circumstances prior to the Patriot Act did not limit the warrants to the investigation of gangs. In fact, terrorism or espionage investigators did not necessarily have to go through the criminal courts for a covert search - they could do so with even fewer safeguards against abuse by going to a top secret foreign intelligence court in Washington.

For criminal sneak-and-peek warrants, the Patriot Act added a catch-all argument for prosecutors - if notice would delay prosecution or jeopardize an investigation - which makes these secret search warrants much easier to obtain.

The presidentÔÇÖs sneak-and-peek misstatement clearly demonstrates that the Patriot Act is not limited to terrorism. In fact, many of the lawÔÇÖs expanded authorities can clearly be used outside the war on terrorism.

The President:

"Judges need greater authority to deny bail to terrorists."

The Truth:

The new presumptive detention that the president is proposing takes judicial authority away from the bail process. The presumption would take away the prosecutionÔÇÖs burden of showing that the accused is a danger or flight risk and instead puts it on the accused.

Street says: " Heil Bush? ". eek: "Looking more like it every day!!"

[Guest]

My comments will be in italics, and alos on quotes.

quote:

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Originally posted by street:

quote:

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posted by $iLk on 04-22-2004 11:55 AM "Heil Bush!"

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The President:

"By the way, the reason I bring up the Patriot Act, itÔÇÖs set to expire next year. IÔÇÖm starting a campaign to make it clear to members of Congress that it shouldnÔÇÖt expire. It shouldnÔÇÖt expire for the security of our country."

The Truth:

Less that 10 percent of the Patriot Act expires; most of the law is permanent and those portions that do sunset will not do so until December 31, 2005.

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quote:

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What did he ACTUALLY say?

"Key provisions of the Patriot Act are set to expire next year," Bush said. "The terrorist threat will not expire on that schedule. Our law enforcement needs this vital legislation to protect our citizens--you need to renew the Patriot Act."

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The President:

"And that changed, the law changed on- roving wiretaps were available for chasing down drug lords. They werenÔÇÖt available for chasing down terrorists, see?"

The Truth:

Roving wiretaps were available prior to 9/11 against drug lords and terrorists. Prior to the law, the FBI could get a roving wiretap against both when it had probable cause of crime for a wiretap eligible offense. What the Patriot Act did is make roving wiretaps available in intelligence investigations supervised by the secret intelligence court without the judicial safeguards of the criminal wiretap statute.[/qb]

[Charles Lindsey]

Ouch Jaguar. Formatting? There is a misplaced something or other to screw your post up so bad.

[Wolferz]

I'm with Chavik on that one, Jag.

Reading that was like dragging dull nails across my eyes.

[Supreme Cmdr]

....I almost passed out from trying to make head or tail of it. Thank goodness I'm not epileptic.

[Guest]

Sorry, it was late and I was tired, but I am just going to leave it for now, because I have had a LONG fricking day.

Wetn to the Olympia Species parade,

A bunch of Left wing whackos dressing up as endangered species and getting stupid.

I have seen enough womens Hairy armpits to last me a lifetime, I thought Germany was bad, They had NOTHING on these gals.

It was DISGUSTING!!!

But my mother thought that my children would love it.... UGH!!!

I will attempt to reformat it tomorrow, lord knows I almost had an attack trying to read that convoluted thing tonight. Thanks guys for taking it easy on me.... LOL

[ 04-25-2004, 12:50 AM: Message edited by: Jaguar ]

[DeepFreeze]

Jeez guys, it wasn't THAT bad. I think you made Jag cry... You should apologize.

[Wolferz]

Here's another disturbing picture that should lend credence to Jag's unwaivering insistence to home school his young'uns.

WTF???? or "Do ya want Freedom Fries with that Bologna?

Now, If I'm not mistaken, Jaguar is required to present a lesson plan to his local board of education,for their approval.

Do I speak the truth?

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by Wolferz:

Here's another disturbing picture that should lend credence to Jag's unwaivering insistence to home school his young'uns.

WTF???? or "Do ya want Freedom Fries with that Bologna?

Now, If I'm not mistaken, Jaguar is required to present a lesson plan to his local board of education,for their approval.

Do I speak the truth?

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Un fricking believable!!! Just unreal.

You guys are gonna trip over thist, but my wife is a liberal Democrat, whereas I am a right wing whacko, so my kids get both sides of the aisle in their schooling, although if the schools ever find out about my 8 year olds shooting skills, they would have a conniption fit, she's not that good.....YET, but she'll get there.

anyway, they get both sides, and I am happy to say, my daughter. eldest, is beginning to understand the difference between the government we have, and the one we are authorized by the constitution to have.

Anyway, in Washington, I do not have to give the state anything, except a statement when she's 8, which she now is, that she is homeschooled. We are also required to give her an equivalency test every 2 years, but the fun thing about it, is that we give her the test, and WE are the ONLY ones that know the results, because the state is NOT allowed to see the results. IT'S WONDERFUL!!! LOL

OK, enough of that, have some work to do, then I will try and reformat that post I made above.

[Wolferz]

Rock on Jag!

If more people were like you, the pinheads in DC would be getting really nervous.

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by Wolferz:

Rock on Jag!

If more people were like you, the pinheads in DC would be getting really nervous.

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Oh, you have NO idea, we are scaring them to death.

The homeschooling movement is growing by over 5% a year, which is KILLING the public schools bottom line, because they get a certain amount of money per child enrolled in the school.

We have had a number of superintendents try and do the old Truancy trick, they didn't last long at their jobs. Also, the NEA is trying to oversee homeschooling and failing BIG time, and they are in a panic. Oh no, children that they can't brainwash into their liberalization and fit the round peg in the sqare hole thinking. Too bad.

They would have told me that my 8 year old has ADD, because she just cannot concentrate on one thing for more then 20 minutes, but for God's sake, the kid is 8 fricking years old. It's crazy.

Yeah, we have them scared alright, and the more people do it, the more scared they get, and the thing that REALLY frightens them, is that my 8 year old, who would be in 2nd grade right now, reads at a 6th grade level now, and is getting REALLY good at her math, she can install a program in a computer without my help, and I will soon be teaching her how to take it apart, install the OS, update it, etc.

Then I will tackle my wife into allowing Morgan supervised access to the internet, in other words, hook the kids computer into the home network. Should be fun.

The NEA is the main rival right now against homeschooling, and they are losing, and being VERY BAD losers about the whole situation.

The thing that really gets me though, is because of the fact that I homeschool, if I am talking to a Christian, they automatically assume that I am not only Christian, but homeschool, BECAUSE I am Christian. It makes me a little nuts, but I have no religious motivation about homeschooling, it is mainly political, and the fact that I want my kids to actually learn something and be able to THINK!!!

[LostInSpace]

quote:

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Originally posted by Jaguar:

They would have told me that my 8 year old has ADD, because she just cannot concentrate on one thing for more then 20 minutes, but for God's sake, the kid is 8 fricking years old. It's crazy.

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I've noticed that trend in the last couple of years from Doctors all the way to Children Family Services throwing that ADD around like candy and all of sudden the poor kids are popping them damn ADD medications like candy. Makes ya wonder who's interests they are looking out for the kids or the pharmaceutical companies.

[street228]

quote:

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quote:Street says: " Heil Bush? ". eek: "Looking more like it every day!!" [/QB]

Jaguar says that Street is full of paranoia

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STREET says: " I find it amazing, you are unable to discuss an issue, without slamming anyone who has an opinion other than yours. Sorry FELLA, no PARANOIA here!, just objective observations, based on issues present. NOW, knowing your an admin, I can objectively observe the POSITION of the board, can I not? "

[Kalshion]

street, I really suggest you watch what you say. Just because someone is an admin doesn't mean they can punish you for not seeing there point

JAG WOULD NEVER ABUSE HIS ADMIN RIGHTS!

The reason he is slamming people is because there blinded by all the lie's and deception's that are in the media now-a-days.

Lemme give you my side

If we didn't have the Patriot Act, we'd be dead.. plain and simple, I'm for this act. With it we are safe from attacks, (sorta) but we are safer now than pre-9/11

[DeepFreeze]

Safer, yes. But also, with slightly less rights. I think its important to recognize the point all these conspiracy theorists are trying to make is that Congress is not going to one day pass the "Haha You're a Slave" bill, but many bills that will slowly but surely infringe on our rights in a gradual process until they're gone, and many people recognize the Patriot Act as the first step.

[street228]

quote:

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street, I really suggest you watch what you say. Just because someone is an admin doesn't mean they can punish you for not seeing there point

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I believe what I see, regardless of what I am told or who tells me!!...And, believe me, I am INDEED WATCHING what I say. Trying NOT to OFFEND. A little difficult, when all it takes is a different opinion or interpretation of what are true relative facts.

quote:

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JAG WOULD NEVER ABUSE HIS ADMIN RIGHTS!

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That would be entirely dependent upon how far those rights extend, and to who makes judgement on such; I dont see I made any specific judgement call that any abuse of his Admin position was made, but only to the POLITICAL POSITION of the entire board.(I have been quite observant as to what is allowed and not allowed, and by who. I am not accustomed to being belittled or slammed, just for having a different opinion, when having conversation with intelligent people. I have found that ignorant people tend to have a need to belittle others, in order to feel superior)

quote:

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The reason he is slamming people is because there blinded by all the lie's and deception's that are in the media now-a-days.

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I agree with the MEDIA deception being presented; however, I believe the deception swings in both directions. I ALSO have the DECENCY to only SLAM when being SLAMMED; HOWEVER, I get threatened to cease, or my post will be deleted. Maybe I too think people are blinded by Lies and misrepresentation..Maybe I should SLAM those who do not see it as I do. Hummm. so much for INTELLIGENT discussion..Huh?

quote:

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Lemme give you my side

If we didn't have the Patriot Act, we'd be dead.. plain and simple, I'm for this act. With it we are safe from attacks, (sorta) but we are safer now than pre-9/11

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Now rather, than call you a parinoid, or some such, I will only say:" I think your position appears to be a paranoid veiw. I feel you are blind to reality; therefore, I have the right to say something like this? "Maybe you need to take some of your prosaic."(or some such?)

[Kalshion]

@Deepfreeze

I would rather give up some of my rights, than be a dead man the next day. This is an act we need, if we get rid of it then the terrorist's will know they can get away with ANYTHING

@Street

I already know I'm paranoid ok. You don't need to tell me that

Personaly, I'm all for this. I want this act to stay

I know I'm planning on defending my country, and trust me if someone was to walk up to my door, wearing a turbon, holding a gun. I wouldn't hesitate to grab my trusty shotgun and fire first

[Guest]

First off, I could ban street in a heartbeat, if I was feeling really dictatorish, I would have to explain myself to the SC, but he might just let it slide. But I won't, he has as much right to his opinion as I do, and sometimes I go too far and sometimes he does, we both give as we get.

This part of the forum is a little looser then others, because I allow it to be, but if it goes too far, I will lock the thread.

Right now, Street hasn't pushed it, and I don't think that I have either. He gives what he gets, and that is about as far as he goes, that is acceptable to me, because if I am not willing to take it, I sure as heck better not give it.

Anyway, I do not agree 100% with the patriot act, ONLY, because Hillary or one of her cronies might become president someday, god forbid, and then the patriot act will be perverted to whatever they want.

I trust President Bush and Rumsfeld and Ashcroft with this power, but I want sunsets on ALL of it's provisions.

I agree that some of the provisions are needed in the shortterm to help us capture and hold terrorist suspects, so that the system we have cannot be used against us.

I TRULY believe that President Bush and his cabinet will not abuse the power given them to protect us, at the same time, the patriot act is NOT that bad.

Name me 1 right that YOU, PERSONALLY, have lost because of the patriot act. Just one, I myself, I haven't lost any rights whatsoever.

So, your challenge, if you choose to accept it, is to name me 1 right that you PERSONALLY have lost, due to the patriot act.

[DeepFreeze]

For me, its not that its written in the bill "You have lost the right to..." but the problem is the future.

The bill is worded quite vaguely and was a complete rush-job from the start. My personal concern is that, as you mentioned, somebody down the road will abuse the rediculously inadequate definition of a "terrorist" or "terrorist offenses" to include anybody doing anything that they don't like.

[Marvin]

quote:

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Originally posted by Jaguar:

... name me 1 right that you PERSONALLY have lost, due to the patriot act.

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You might want to consider how the Act could impact your home schooling. Not today, of course. Maybe not even in its current incarnation. But there are a lot of teachers out there who want to make sure your kids learn what's politically and socially correct. I'm sure many of them are wondering how they can subvert the Act to give themselves that opportunity.

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by Marvin:

quote:

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Originally posted by Jaguar:

... name me 1 right that you PERSONALLY have lost, due to the patriot act.

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You might want to consider how the Act could impact your home schooling. Not today, of course. Maybe not even in its current incarnation. But there are a lot of teachers out there who want to make sure your kids learn what's politically and socially correct. I'm sure many of them are wondering how they can subvert the Act to give themselves that opportunity.

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I wish them luck, is all I have to say, because to push it to that would take some extreme redefining, and by the time the Homeschooling movement got done with them, there would be nothing but political wreckage left behind.

The Homeschooling movement is not only growing, it's political influence is growing as well, anyone that tried to pull that, would find their political career in ruins.

We still have lots of power, the people are the power in this country, and if given the motivation, can stop just about anything in it's tracks. We homeschoolers may be a minority, but we are some of the LEAST apathetic people you will run across, and that is something that politicians just cannot fight.

Apathy, is the most dangerous thing that is killing our country right now, and the Modern day school system is one of the main reasons for it.

Homeschoolers are NOT apathetic, we are doing something about our childrens education, and the behemoth that would run these politicians over is not one that allows them to sleep well at night.

California is giving up in thier fight to control homeschooling, that ought to tell you somthing. California is one of the MOST socialist states in the union, and they cannot fight the organized opposition that they find standing against them.

Apathy is what the problem is, and YOU, as an individual only give up the rights that you allow them to take away.

And if YOU allow them to take away your rights, then you deserve the kind of government you get.

And in all honesty, if they try and force me to give up my rights, you will find me disapearing from the scene very quickly. This country is now a democracy, and if the majority rules, then I am OUTTA here if they rule against me.

[street228]

quote:

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by jaquar:And in all honesty, if they try and force me to give up my rights, you will find me disapearing from the scene very quickly. This country is now a democracy, and if the majority rules, then I am OUTTA here if they rule against me.

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And where would you; or could you, go and be outside the reach or influence. IF, the U.S. ruled against you?.

quote:

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Name me 1 right that YOU, PERSONALLY, have lost because of the patriot act. Just one, I myself, I haven't lost any rights whatsoever.

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You fail to realize, what the present consequence is, to the person accused, even when the accusation is FALSE. One FALSE accusation from, ANY who chooses to harm you, can cost you your ENTIRE life's accomplishments, or accumulation; as you FIGHT to PROVE your innocence.

The PATRIOT act, now eliminates YOUR ability to defend yourself from such an accusation; be that ACCUSATION one of TERRORISM.

In addition, I personally have LOST the RIGHT to PRIVACY. I have lost the mental SECURITY, that MY home will not be entered without WARRANT, or Justifiable cause. I have LOST the PEACE of MIND, that I have freedom of speach, as the RETALIATION for practicing such, can too easily lead to FALSE accusation and indefinate incarceration, AND without legal representation.

(ONE definition of FREEDOM: "LACK of cohersive FORCE")

The whole issue, makes me question, "WHO is TERRORISING WHO"

[Marvin]

quote:

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Originally posted by Jaguar:

California is one of the MOST socialist states in the union, and they cannot fight the organized opposition that they find standing against them.

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Sad, isn't it? Especially since the majority of Californians have voted to stem the tide. But, every time a bill or "measure" or initiative is passed, the Court of San Francisco (9th Circuit) strikes it down.

Consequently, many Californians are fleeing the tyranny of the minority and moving elsewhere. 'Cause, if you can't change things with a democratic vote, what's left?

[Kalshion]

yawns and looks at street's reply, is unable to hold back his laugh

quote:

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In addition, I personally have LOST the RIGHT to PRIVACY. I have lost the mental SECURITY, that MY home will not be entered without WARRANT, or Justifiable cause. I have LOST the PEACE of MIND, that I have freedom of speach, as the RETALIATION for practicing such, can too easily lead to FALSE accusation and indefinate incarceration, AND without legal representation.

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*looks around*, lets see my house isn't bugged and it'll stay unbugged. And I can just bet that you're house isn't bugged either. You havn't lost you're privacy unless you have commited a crime.. are you telling us that you DID commit a crime and are just hiding? Is that why you're against this act?

I'm glad they can now enter without a warrent, why announce you're presence to begin with? That just gives the person time to hide what the people are looking for

To be quite honest, if you're commited of a crime you shouldn't even be ALLOWED to have a legal attorney WHAT SO EVER. Cause it's like I just said, You commited a crime, there is the evidence.. you broke the law, you betrayed america so you deserve to be either put in jail or sentenced to death (which, by the way, I support the death sentence)

quote:

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The whole issue, makes me question, "WHO is TERRORISING WHO"

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Ya know street, you're a funny little liberal. You always think of yourself. Not of anyone else or about the safty of this country *sighs in disgust*

[street228]

I have one further comment to make on this issue, of "so called security" everyone thinks this patriot act is establishing.

I frequently go to El Passo(US/Mexico border town), and look at all the inexpensive junk for sale on this side of the border. A friend of mine, was commenting on all the illegal's which were coming into the U.S., and how easy it was for them to cross, if they chose to do so.

It,s a fact, that the one's who DIE in truck trailers and train cars are those ignorant of the true ease, by which it can be done. Those are mostly from South America, Honduras, Panama etc. etc.

We were having a friendly debate, on how we would go about crossing the border, and how ANY illegal could do so.

Later, that evening, we made a bet. I bet I could come from Mexico into the U S and would not be caught, but if He crossed into mexico from the U S, he would be most likely be stopped.

He would stay at the motel for 24 hours, and I would take a bus across the border in a legal way.

He would then cross at a remote location,(about 14 miles west of El Paso)into mexico,that we had agreed upon. I would cross at the approx same time and location,INTO the U.S.

We did this in July of the year(2002).

The End result? I easily scaled the delapitated fence, and waded into the river. The mud was knee deep and the current was swift. After about an hour of hard,physical, exhausting work; I made it to the US side,and climbed the fence. When I was at the top of the fence, I realized the razor wire, was facing the continent, and NOT the river(thank GOD).Then I noticed a Border Patrol vehicle sitting about 200 yards off. I could just see the shape of the officer in his car.

My heart jumped for a moment, expecting the coming confrontation.I could'nt imagine him not seeing this dirty, mud-caked man, gingerly climbing down the face of this 15'-20' high chain link;all the while, squeezing between the razor wire and a floppy, slightly bent section of the fence.

At the bottom, I walked away from the fence. I knew the Border Patrol was just up over the embankment.I figured I had already been caught, so I walked down the off road trail through sparse dead grass and brush, and right up to the Border Patrol vehicle. He didnt even blink,so I walked right past him looking at him, and him staring at me. My friend was nowhere to be seen. The officer did not stop me, so I didnt stop to say anything to the officer.

I arrived at the hotel, around noon the following day.(helluva trip back) When I arrived, I took a shower and passed out. My friend was nowhere to be found, and he had the car.

I spent 4 days calling the police,hospitals, his wife and etc. Finally, he called the motel. They let him have a phone call from the El Paso police dept.(The El Paso Police,for three days, told me they didnt know anything about this guy)

He had been Arrested for attempting to cross the border illegally, and the car impounded.

I bailed him out. We spent 4 trips in the following 14 months. $8000.00 in lawyer fees, to get him cleared of felony charges. We CANNOT get the car. They kept it on SUSPICIAN that he was using it with the intent to traffik drugs(You know the DRUG WAR thing passed in 1993) And Even though we proved our intentions, and his degree of innocence to the drug thing, they still say they are justified in seizure of the vehicle and in keeping it.

My point is this: EVERY law ever passed IS used in violation to which it is intended. Maybe NOT every single time, but a LOT of the time.(I get this from the fact that the Federal Dept of Corrections ADMITS that 12% and up to 25% of their incarcerated inmates, are "possibly and most likely innocent")

Dont think for a second, that, just because you have not NOTICED the missing RIGHTS, that those missing rights will NEVER affect you. If and When, you find yourself in a situation, where they do, It wil be too late, and NO ONE ELSE will care. The Patriot act would be good, but goes TOO FAR, And the proposed Patriot Act2 is going even Further. It is NOT that which is public knowledge, but the attached amendments. The wording with wide,Generalizations , which can make political action flyers, constitute an ACT of TERRORISM, or any Group which gathers, GUILTY if ANYONE (Even NOT affiliated with the group)does anything construed as terroristic,EVERY individual within the group is Guilty of terrorism. (they have NO rights and may indeed be put to death after Patriot ActII is invoked)

Today!! If you pick a person up walking down the road, and give him a ride to the store. You get pulled over, and he has a crack rock(in a balloon up his butt or anyplace else)and the police find it. The result is You go to jail loose your car and spend time in prison with a felonous record attached to your name. DRUG WAR . NOW WAR on TERRORISM. who'd figure!??

Personally, I see the LYNCH mob mentality and cry fro revenge for 9/11 going much too far into our constitutional rights!!

I took an oath, when I entered the military: "TO PROTECT AMERICA from ENEMIES, both foreign AND Domestic" I am very patriotic and take my sworn oath very very seriously. I will FIGHT to the Death, rather than give up MY FREEDOM!!.

Oh, I won the $50.00 bet, by the way.