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Abuse at Abu Ghraib Prison


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A few soldiers crossed the line.

It's over, they are up on charges, and that's it.

Get over it.....

The Iraqis did a LOT worse to their own people, but it is disturbing that it happened at all.

These soldiers are up on charges, it has NOTHING to do with Rumsfeld, and to demand that he resign over the stupidity of a few reservists is totally and absolutely political.

To make such a HUGE deal over this, and then ignore every bit of abuse that is done to our soldiers when they are captured by these nutso terrorists is insane.

So they are all peaches and cream when they kill and maim and torch our soldiers when they are captured, but when a few of our soldiers get a bit of that back, our entire military is stained?

Come on guys, can we get real here?

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Guest MIKE113

I'm with ya on that Jag. Why didn't they show the 4 American Civilians they burned and hung from that bridge again? Let's just ban cameras in detention centers and move on!

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I can't believe I'm about to say this, but I tend to agree with Jaguar. (Checking my own temperature). Being opposed to this war, I was initially appalled at what happened at the prison, but after thinking about it, I find it somewhat amusing. These soldiers, as the president and others have said are certainly not representative of our military or the secretary of defense(the devil's brother). The funny part is that these morons got together and did something they knew was wrong and THEN somebody said, "Hey, let's get a camera and take pictures of it." LMAO

I'm confident that these geniuses will suffer the consequences of their actions. As my personal hero Sean Hannity would say, "Let not your heart be troubled." Your commander in thief, er chief would want us to stay the course and maintain our resolve. The evil-doers have been smoked out by their own stupidity.

Oh, and if you have a morbid fascination to see the bodies hanging from the bridge, tune into the fox news channel. I saw it on there tonight when I came home from work. Fair and balanced reporting.

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quote:

Originally posted by Wolferz:

The whole incident smells of frame to me.

'nuff said.

You know I was going to say that yesterday but I thought better of it. "Oh here comes the conspiracy nut again" is all I kept hearing in my head. All the events of this just doesn't smell right to me. That the pictures were taken in first place, the way they were posed for and then emailed. How brain numb are those people. Don't they realize you never email sensitive things like that or for that matter how proud can one be to even take pictures of this. Proves my point about dying for this country. I'll go to war to protect my family (and even some of them are questionable too) but not anyone else.

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Guest Shingen

I'll prolly get flames, but from what I seen of those pictures, there didn't seem to be a whole lot of actual torture going on.

Most of the prisoners seemed rather well-fed, and though they were clearly being humiliated, you can bet that those captured US prisoners are receiving a whole lot worse treatment.

The whole thing smells of an engineered left-wing attack on the war to me.

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I don't quite know how to respond to the assertions of consipracy here other than to say you guys should probably get out more.

From what I understand, the worst of the photos/videos haven't been released so the full magnitude won't be known until (and if) they are released.

Regardless of one's personal feelings about the situation and whether or not the reactions are justified, this scandal has done serious damage to our credibility. That's the reality of it.

Now we have to deal with it and I would hope that all Americans find themselves able to condemn this sort of behavior rather than attempt to trivialize or rationalize it.

It's wrong, period.

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Guest Shingen

quote:

Regardless of one's personal feelings about the situation and whether or not the reactions are justified, this scandal has done serious damage to our credibility. That's the reality of it.

As it was intended.

I find it hard to comprehend that you believe that GWB is apart of the S&B conspiracy, yet you fail to believe that there are hard-lined leftist Marxist seeded into the US Armed Forces to discredit and disinform.

Nothing is as it seems to be, and that is another fact of life. Just because the Media reports it, doesn't make it factual.

[ 05-09-2004, 02:04 PM: Message edited by: Shingen ]

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The pictures represent one of the largest black eyes that this countries military has received in at least 40 years. It is utterly incomprehensable that a climate was established wherein events like this could occur. No soldier would direct naked prisoners to form a pyramid without the belief that their actions would at least be tolorated by their superiors. They knew the prisoners would talk, and they obviously felt secure that the abuse would go unpunished.

Couple this with the admission that there are more pictures, more videos out there, and you have to conclude that there was a culture within that facility that allowed or encouraged this behavior. And quite frankly, all that were involved in the debasement and all that knew of it and did not properly interceed need to be found, punished, and removed from service.

Sure, we still treat our prisoners better then the Iraqis treat theirs. Undoubtably, many American's have suffered much greater pain and humiliation at the hands of their captors then any of Iraqis will. However, it is the tradition of the United States Army to hold itself to the highest of standards. That's not to say that individuals always act accordingly, but that the institution as a whole will hold itself to higher standards then those of our enemies.

I am particularly disturbed by the press releases by the family of Pfc. Lynndie England, stating categorically that she is just a sweet girl who only did what she was ordered to do. Throughout Basic Traning, and all throughout your career, you understand that you are not to obey an illegal order, and moreover your 3rd general order specifically requires you to report such requests to your commander. It is unthinkable that this private did not know what she was doing was wrong. All she would have to do is imagine herself tied up and blindfolded to understand the gravity of her actions.

To add perspective to my statements, I was a front line combat soldier in the first gulf war. While not my primary duty, as a forward observer I was involved in prisoner actions on several occassions. Had I seen anything remotely similiar to the behavior demonstrated by these soldiers, I would have reported it to every officer I could find. The excuse that it's stressful combat situations is no excuse whatsoever.

To regain it's credability, to restore honor, the United States Military needs to clean house of all that were involved in this shameless event.

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Guest Shingen

You know, with all due respect to everyone, I went through worse in jump school, and NCO school...we ain't even going to go into what S.E.R.E.s is all about.

If you really think what you've seen is torture, then you really need to get a clue.

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Re-Reading some of the posts here, it seems that much of the disagreement here surrounds whether or not the prisoners were "tortured". That's just a disucssion about symantics. Here's a good test. Instead of a bunch of Iraqi prisoners, let's imagine it's your mother, your wife, your sister, your daughter, and for good measure we'll throw in your 3rd grade teacher. Now strip them naked, force them to pose for pictures piled on top of each other, force them to pose as if they were performing oral sex on each other, then distribute those pictures to every news organization on the planet, and have the world share in their pride and joy. Then, when your wife is returned to you several months later, explain to her that anyone who has sympathy for her should "get a clue" or that it was just a "politicaly motivated non-issue". But get a good divorce lawyer first.

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Guest Shingen

Let's say my mother, my wife, my sister, my daughter, and my 3rd grade teacher just set off an anti-personnel device that took out half your platoon.

Let's say that your platoon was doing nothing but simple secruity and "peace-keeping".

Let's say that everyone in your platoon that had just been blown into so many parts, had a mother and wife, sister and 3rd grade teacher.

Let's say that you've served with those soldiers that are pieces on the ground, and you knew them all by name, knew their mom's name and their wife's name.

Now do your test.

[ 05-09-2004, 03:11 PM: Message edited by: Shingen ]

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I suggest anyone else who hasn't been assigned to POW guard/interrogation detail read the following link, or one of many like it:

Stanford Prison Experiment

quote:

In only a few days, our guards became sadistic and our prisoners became depressed and showed signs of extreme stress.

The USAF Basic Survival school used the findings from the above study when developing their POW surival course. While attending the course, I discovered that the instructors, all of them psychologically fit US Air Force personnel, were required to rotate out of the POW camp after a single three-day session as camp guards/commandants.

Anyone in the chain of command who does not understand the necessity of rotating guards in any POW camp deserves at least the same punishment as the offending guards, themselves. If you don't have the personnel, take 'em off guard duty at a nuke site ... something less important.

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Yes and we can all be so proud to now appear before the world as depraved and ridiculous as those we seek to humiliate. Most of the prisoners in Abu Ghraib had nothing to do with RPG attacks on Humvees or anything of the like. Most of the people in that prison were there because of Iraqi on Iraqi crimes such as burglary, looting and taking an extra water ration etc.

"There were gross differences, Taguba said, between the actual number of prisoners on hand and the number officially recorded. A lack of proper screening also meant that many innocent Iraqis were wrongly being detainedÔÇöindefinitely, it seemed, in some cases. The Taguba study noted that more than sixty per cent of the civilian inmates at Abu Ghraib were deemed not to be a threat to society, which should have enabled them to be released. KarpinskiÔÇÖs defense, Taguba said, was that her superior officers ÔÇ£routinelyÔÇØ rejected her recommendations regarding the release of such prisoners."

and further...

The mistreatment at Abu Ghraib may have done little to further American intelligence, however. Willie J. Rowell, who served for thirty-six years as a C.I.D. agent, told me that the use of force or humiliation with prisoners is invariably counterproductive. ÔÇ£TheyÔÇÖll tell you what you want to hear, truth or no truth,ÔÇØ Rowell said. ÔÇ£ÔÇÿYou can flog me until I tell you what I know you want me to say.ÔÇÖ You donÔÇÖt get righteous information.ÔÇØ

New Yorker article on Abu Ghraib

I do tip my hat to you though Shingen. Real dramatic take. We KILL the guys that do the kind of stuff you are talking about or they get away from our inept hands and do it again, you know it and I know it.

If we want to be fair let's just say, these guys (our troops) have been there for over a year, they're being made to be jailers and police and frankly they're WARRIORS. "Blowing off steam," is a concept too stupid for words, coming from imbeciles like Rush Limbaugh, who I would love to see in a prison situation with a guy named Bubba who just so happens to also need to blow off some steam. Unfortunately Rush will not see the justice he craves for doper FM types come down the pyke for him.

We keep the Iraqis hungry and thirsty so that they don't think of much else. We will rebuild their country so that we can make money at it, when they want to rebuild their country and keep their money. Bush embodies ambition and then expects that nobody in Iraq has any... that's why his puppet regime isn't going to work there any more than it has worked in Afghanistan. If we were truly about liberation, our troops would be on bases in Iraq, out of the cities. The police would be trained and in place, not looking to kill us as they are now.

Let's face it... from the top down this action had less planning than a church picnic.

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So you have first hand knowledge of the crimes committed by the individuals under the hoods. I apologize, I did not know you were so well connected. Or are they guilty by association; because they are Iraqi and in a prision they must have done all those terrible things. The only thing that any of us know about those individuals is that they are male, Iraqi, and individual human beings. We can infer that they have transgressed the law to some extent; but oh yea, as Americans we believe in innocent until proved guilty.

I saw members of my unit killed in action. I somehow managed to not vent that anger on unarmed, bound and hooded prisoners when they were specifically remanded to my care.

I could understand why people would feel that "they had it coming". Innocents on our side have taken terrible casualities and abuse. But we cannot degrade ourselves to their level. Moreover, you cannot make a few people pay for crimes committed by others.

When you start believing that all are guilty of the crimes of a few, that you can abuse whomever you wish because someone else once did something bad to you, then you go against all that our country, our laws, and our freedoms stand for.

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Guest Shingen

quote:

Anyone in the chain of command who does not understand the necessity of rotating guards in any POW camp deserves at least the same punishment as the offending guards, themselves. If you don't have the personnel, take 'em off guard duty at a nuke site ... something less important.

Exactly. The CO and BC should be held accountable, just like everyone in those pictures. That company should never had been allowed to digress to that point. Unfortunately, I doubt it'll happen that way.

Instead of Rumsfeld and Co. in front of the House and Senate, it should've been the Company Commander and Battalion Commander.

quote:

I do tip my hat to you though Shingen. Real dramatic take. We KILL the guys that do the kind of stuff you are talking about or they get away from our inept hands and do it again, you know it and I know it.

Excuse me, but I don't think I ever said that those action depicted in those photos were justifiable. I said that they really didn't equate to torture it the purest sense.

I was giving CONTEXT to the aformentioned "test", and without some sort of context, any test is irrelevent.

Why is it that you think you can post web-links from some news organization and claim it to be "fact", when IN FACT, you weren't there and HAVE NO CLUE.

[ 05-09-2004, 04:14 PM: Message edited by: Shingen ]

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quote:

Originally posted by Shingen:

quote:

Regardless of one's personal feelings about the situation and whether or not the reactions are justified, this scandal has done serious damage to our credibility. That's the reality of it.

As it was intended.

I find it hard to comprehend that you believe that GWB is apart of the S&B conspiracy, yet you fail to believe that there are hard-lined leftist Marxist seeded into the US Armed Forces to discredit and disinform.

Nothing is as it seems to be, and that is another fact of life. Just because the Media reports it, doesn't make it factual.


Yeah, once again it comes down to partisan politics and everyone that falls left of center is to blame. Ridiculous.

When did I say anything about GWB?

Yup, nothing is as it seems, but I don't see the military beating the drums of conspiracy and falsehoods. I suppose you think the holocaust never happened either huh? (Before you think it, I am not comparing the two by any stretch)

Furthermore, this is not a question of torture or the level to which the abuse arose. It's a question of the US taking the moral high ground in regards to human rights issues with the rest of the world, then having some idiots turn around and do something so blatantly stupid that flies in the face that of that very same stance.

Denial is not a river in Egypt.

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Guest Shingen

quote:

Furthermore, this is not a question of torture or the level to which the abuse arose. It's a question of the US taking the moral high ground in regards to human rights issues with the rest of the world, then having some idiots turn around and do something so blatantly stupid that flies in the face that of that very same stance.

Fine. We'll agree on some things and disagree on others.

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This socalled fiasco was being investigated by the military since January.

This is NOT something new, it is not something earthshakingly breaking.

If you had been paying attention, this would not have come as a shck at all.

The timing of this by our national media has the stench of political pandering and slamming.

Again, this NOT new, THIS is NOT breaking. It is OLD news, and it just happened to be the time that the media thought that it would do the most damage to Bush and his administration and build up Kerry in the process.

The military has been investigating since the allegations were made, and the photos were found, BACK in January, almost 4 months.

The timing of this is so blatant, and the spin is so insane, and the attention is so ridiculous, that this little slam is Obviously a very well thought out and planned campaign by our "nonpartisan" media.

Kerry has been taking a hell of a beating in the polls, and they have been steadily dropping, and the media couldn't play it down much longer, therefore they had to somehow get Bushes ratings to come down so that Kerry's would go up.

The timing is just way too obvious. The media is starting to panic, when they go for this in such obvious glee, it shows their socalled fair and balanced reporting is not at all fair nor balanced.

They are giving their game away, and the American Public, if it can ever think longer then 48 hours future and past, the liberal press is gonna be in deep KAKA, but then again, the media thinks we're all idiots, and can play so obvious a ploy and get away with it with 90% of my fellow americans, the sheeple of this country as I like to call them.

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Guest Shingen

quote:

The timing is just way too obvious. The media is starting to panic, when they go for this in such obvious glee, it shows their socalled fair and balanced reporting is not at all fair nor balanced.

It was even more obvious by the questioning of the House and Senate Democrats.

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Trying to overshadow the facts with political rhetoric is in pretty poor taste.

Does the fact that it's "old news" mean it is somehow less significant? Sounds like a lame attempt to downplay it if you ask me. When would have been a "good time" to have all of this come out where political motives wouldn't have been raised or questioned?

What some of you are asserting is that the "left" somehow got a hold of this info and decided to keep it quiet until now. If this was a "leftist plot", don't you think that Rumsfeld and his crew would have blown the whistle back in January when this first came to light? It was in the news, but it didn't get lots of play. Most likely because the kind of evidence being presented now was not available at that time.

So let's assume that this is a move on the part of the Democratic party to smear Bush and hurt his campaign. Why on earth didn't his administration, whom we would assume knew just as much as those evil liberals, try to thwart this malicious plot and come clean much earlier? Who put the gag order on them?

I feel bad even entertaining these notions, so I'll just leave it by reasserting myself:

It is/was terribly wrong and we all know it.

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Guest Shingen

quote:

So let's assume that this is a move on the part of the Democratic party to smear Bush and hurt his campaign. Why on earth didn't his administration, whom we would assume knew just as much as those evil liberals, try to thwart this malicious plot and come clean much earlier? Who put the gag order on them?

Did you even watch the Senate and/or House hearings?

Nevermind. I don't have the patience. I've been up playing UC too long.

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quote:

Originally posted by Grizzle:

Trying to overshadow the facts with political rhetoric is in pretty poor taste.

Does the fact that it's "old news" mean it is somehow less significant? Sounds like a lame attempt to downplay it if you ask me. When would have been a "good time" to have all of this come out where political motives wouldn't have been raised or questioned?

What some of you are asserting is that the "left" somehow got a hold of this info and decided to keep it quiet until now. If this was a "leftist plot", don't you think that Rumsfeld and his crew would have blown the whistle back in January when this first came to light? It was in the news, but it didn't get lots of play. Most likely because the kind of evidence being presented now was not available at that time.

So let's assume that this is a move on the part of the Democratic party to smear Bush and hurt his campaign. Why on earth didn't his administration, whom we would assume knew just as much as those evil liberals, try to thwart this malicious plot and come clean much earlier? Who put the gag order on them?

I feel bad even entertaining these notions, so I'll just leave it by reasserting myself:

It is/was terribly wrong and we all know it.

Then Why didn't your press blow the whistle on it back in January? HUH? This thing started in January, but Kerry was doing decently, but now he's not, so NOW they blow the whistle, in order to bring their candidates ratings back up.

This is totally political, the military was handling this, soldiers are going to be courtmartialed, and were going to be courtmatialed.

This is totally and absolutely political on the press's part, and the left's part as well. They smelled blood, and the timing was right, so they pounced like the sharks they are.

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