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quote:

Personally, I believe that Bush has opened Pandora's box. As the agenda of democracies come and go according to who holds the power, I doubt that there will be sufficient political will & coherence in the future to pursue the stabilization of Irak & Afghanistan no matter what will be the cost and as long as it takes.

I agree, with you on several things, but the one which caught my attention, is that of Pandora'a Box, and that stabilization of Iraq, and Afghanistan, will NEVER be achieved.

I do NOT see it as a matter of "LACK OF WILL", though. I see it as "IMPOSSIBLE".

In My opinion, it could ONLY have been achieved, IF, the AREA CULTURE,had been seized, IN ADVANCE, of MILITARY conquest.

As it stands, EVEN those, apparantly happy under WESTERNISM, ARE (in fact) against it. They have no choice. Their CULTURE's FOUNDATION, will breed the defiance, REGARDLESS of our DESIRE, to RULE their way of thought!! or our MILITARY capability of holding them in subjugation.

THIS is what will inevitably, KEEP, both AFGHANISTAN, and IRAQ, in turmoil. Military MIGHT, can NOT superimpose RATIONAL, upon such a CULTURE, nor can it KEEP such a culture, in check.

Civil WAR, is almost guaranteed to ensue, and ANY unification,established, would make ALL(Outsiders) infedels, an ABSOLUTE ENEMY.

[ 08-17-2004, 05:14 PM: Message edited by: street ]

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quote:

Personally, I believe that Bush has opened Pandora's box. As the agenda of democracies come and go according to who holds the power, I doubt that there will be sufficient political will & coherence in the future to pursue the stabilization of Irak & Afghanistan no matter what will be the cost and as long as it takes.

I agree, with you on several things, but the one which caught my attention, is that of Pandora'a Box, and that stabilization of Iraq, and Afghanistan, will NEVER be achieved.

I do NOT see it as a matter of "LACK OF WILL", though. I see it as "IMPOSSIBLE".

In My opinion, it could ONLY have been achieved, IF, the AREA CULTURE,had been seized, IN ADVANCE, of MILITARY conquest.

As it stands, EVEN those, apparantly happy under WESTERNISM, ARE (in fact) against it. They have no choice. Their CULTURE's FOUNDATION, will breed the defiance, REGARDLESS of our DESIRE, to RULE their way of thought!! or our MILITARY capability of holding them in subjugation.

THIS is what will inevitably, KEEP, both AFGHANISTAN, and IRAQ, in turmoil. Military MIGHT, can NOT superimpose RATIONAL, upon such a CULTURE, nor can it KEEP such a culture, in check.

Civil WAR, is almost guaranteed to ensue, and ANY unification,established, would make ALL(Outsiders) infedels, an ABSOLUTE ENEMY.

[ 08-17-2004, 05:14 PM: Message edited by: street ]

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Maybe I should have been more precise. I'am afraid that your are right. When I was referring to the cost, specially the time, I should have specified that this could require almost 30 years, or in other words, would require a new generation... I doubt that there will be a sucession of US administrations who will be ready to cope with these countries during such a long time.

No, you were quite clear, and understood. I agree with you in most ALL your assessments, but must contend this one additional perspective:

I understand, that the division, in regard to U.S.'s initial involvement, means little, in that, the United States is NOW actively involved.

After all, WE have been INVOLVED, for over 20 years in afghanistan...already. We have been in Germany, and Korea, for over 50 years. Our pull-out from Vietnam, was the ONLY withdraw, our Nation has EVER, demonstrated, once it's official involvement, was established.

I do NOT think, change in Administration, will Affect, our ESTABLISHED position, in either country, nor to that toward terrorism. And we ARE ,in fact, STUCK, with this problem, for the long haul.

I DO think, change in Administration, will allow our country to be more intelligent,as to INVADING another country, WITHOUT proper consideration, and more intelligent consultation within our Government, as a whole.

We, as a country, have incredable staying power, when it comes to being INVOLVED, in conflict. Especially, when it does NOT affect the MAJORITY of OUR population.

I Agree with your conclusion, as to the pending failure within BOTH countries. I just do NOT feel, the reasoning: "LACK of political will", is an inevitability DUE to the time frame, or expense of the operatiion.

I feel it is due, more to the SEED which is embedded within the MUSLIM CULTURE, and its teachings, being SET against the SEED which is embedded, in the FANATIC christian culture and it's teachings.

These TWO cultural ideals, and THEIR mixture, within the POLITICAL ideologies of the world.....ALMOST guarantees escalation of RADICAL CONFLICT, and RADICAL SOLUTIONS...by BOTH sides.

THIS is why, you see "NON-TERRORIST" fighting Americans and the American backed IRAQI forces within Iraq today. We are STILL the invaders, and the INFEDEL. it is too late, to affectively change that ideal, within the muslim culture...while simultaniously holding the population in check, with military force, and CHRISTIAN/communistic(control through force) ideologic rule.

THUS: the FAILURE, will indeed be CATASTROPHIC.

I view BUSH, as a complete IMBICILE, in regard to this WHOLE matter. If he chokes on another pretzil, I hope it gets him!!

quote:

Bush taking out a totalitarian regime Iraq and Afghanistan, is not pushing a totalitarianistic agenda, otherwise he would have taken them over, and made them little duchies of the United states.

LOL sorry Jag, Even though you think BUSH is some sort of GOD; I hate to bust your bubble, but he is NOT capable of doing that...EVEN with the U.S.Military capabilities.

Is BUSH pushing totalitarianism?

Your his most AVID follower, and YOU promote, the elimination of the LIBERAL, or DEMOCRATIC party, as unecessary, and a hinderance to BUSH totalitarianistic proliferation!!! YOU believe, and stand on the COMMUNIST(rule by force) ideology.

How can you say you do'nt, when you PROMOTE PEEMPTIVE ATTACK, based on foundless speculation..at best?

I call unilateral control, and use of LIES to manipulate congress...to ACT unilaterally, in INVADING any country....DOING EXACTLY THAT. Promotion of COMMUNISTIC/TOTALITARIAN rule.

ESPECIALLY, when the SAME "POWER CRAZED" fanatic(BUSH), attacks MY constitution, with logic leaking from the same decomposing corpse, as the logic used on the international level.

[ 08-17-2004, 05:40 PM: Message edited by: street ]

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quote:

Maybe I should have been more precise. I'am afraid that your are right. When I was referring to the cost, specially the time, I should have specified that this could require almost 30 years, or in other words, would require a new generation... I doubt that there will be a sucession of US administrations who will be ready to cope with these countries during such a long time.

No, you were quite clear, and understood. I agree with you in most ALL your assessments, but must contend this one additional perspective:

I understand, that the division, in regard to U.S.'s initial involvement, means little, in that, the United States is NOW actively involved.

After all, WE have been INVOLVED, for over 20 years in afghanistan...already. We have been in Germany, and Korea, for over 50 years. Our pull-out from Vietnam, was the ONLY withdraw, our Nation has EVER, demonstrated, once it's official involvement, was established.

I do NOT think, change in Administration, will Affect, our ESTABLISHED position, in either country, nor to that toward terrorism. And we ARE ,in fact, STUCK, with this problem, for the long haul.

I DO think, change in Administration, will allow our country to be more intelligent,as to INVADING another country, WITHOUT proper consideration, and more intelligent consultation within our Government, as a whole.

We, as a country, have incredable staying power, when it comes to being INVOLVED, in conflict. Especially, when it does NOT affect the MAJORITY of OUR population.

I Agree with your conclusion, as to the pending failure within BOTH countries. I just do NOT feel, the reasoning: "LACK of political will", is an inevitability DUE to the time frame, or expense of the operatiion.

I feel it is due, more to the SEED which is embedded within the MUSLIM CULTURE, and its teachings, being SET against the SEED which is embedded, in the FANATIC christian culture and it's teachings.

These TWO cultural ideals, and THEIR mixture, within the POLITICAL ideologies of the world.....ALMOST guarantees escalation of RADICAL CONFLICT, and RADICAL SOLUTIONS...by BOTH sides.

THIS is why, you see "NON-TERRORIST" fighting Americans and the American backed IRAQI forces within Iraq today. We are STILL the invaders, and the INFEDEL. it is too late, to affectively change that ideal, within the muslim culture...while simultaniously holding the population in check, with military force, and CHRISTIAN/communistic(control through force) ideologic rule.

THUS: the FAILURE, will indeed be CATASTROPHIC.

I view BUSH, as a complete IMBICILE, in regard to this WHOLE matter. If he chokes on another pretzil, I hope it gets him!!

quote:

Bush taking out a totalitarian regime Iraq and Afghanistan, is not pushing a totalitarianistic agenda, otherwise he would have taken them over, and made them little duchies of the United states.

LOL sorry Jag, Even though you think BUSH is some sort of GOD; I hate to bust your bubble, but he is NOT capable of doing that...EVEN with the U.S.Military capabilities.

Is BUSH pushing totalitarianism?

Your his most AVID follower, and YOU promote, the elimination of the LIBERAL, or DEMOCRATIC party, as unecessary, and a hinderance to BUSH totalitarianistic proliferation!!! YOU believe, and stand on the COMMUNIST(rule by force) ideology.

How can you say you do'nt, when you PROMOTE PEEMPTIVE ATTACK, based on foundless speculation..at best?

I call unilateral control, and use of LIES to manipulate congress...to ACT unilaterally, in INVADING any country....DOING EXACTLY THAT. Promotion of COMMUNISTIC/TOTALITARIAN rule.

ESPECIALLY, when the SAME "POWER CRAZED" fanatic(BUSH), attacks MY constitution, with logic leaking from the same decomposing corpse, as the logic used on the international level.

[ 08-17-2004, 05:40 PM: Message edited by: street ]

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quote:

I do not believe that discussions, as sensitive may be the subject, shall allow our emotions to appear. These emotions are legitime, but their expression seldom help solutions. Instead, you often get stuck in sterile action-reaction personal exchanges.


You are absolutely correct. This WHOLE situation: "9/11 > Iraq" Is , in itself, an ACTION-REACTION scenerio, which has YET to be recognized. Thus, the emotion runs deep, and resides near the surface.

quote:

From a security perspective, we judeo-christians are all in the same boat, from Iceland to Brasil. There is no need to let our thinking be limited by the frame of classic ideologies. We also know that "Errare humanum est", and errors may help us to evolve, as long as there is a genuine motivation to make things "right" not according to our wishes or dreams, but according to pragmatism and taking into account specific geostrategic & cultural contexts even if we do not share all their values.


Yes, "To Err, is human", but there is NO benefit, regardless of intent, if the ERROR is NOT recognized, and dealt with. Where then, would the benefit from LEARNING be achieved? This is an example of the culturally radical CHRISTIAN perspective, which I was referring to, in my previous post. Our present administration has declared the IRAQ Invasion as "RIGHTIOUS" ;therefore, any mistakes made, are not under proper consideration, for PREVENTING a repeat scenerio.

This, is a security concern, which needs be recognized, by EVERY nation of the world...AMERICA FIRST.

I wish more people had enough objectivity to take the geostrategic & cultural contexts into consideration.My hope, is that the Kerry political platform is aware, of this perspective. I believe he is, based on what I have seen, in regard to his campaign.

quote:

Among many other places, I have spent several years in the middle-east, and not precisely as a tourist. So my knowledge doesen't come from CNN, FoxNews or some government propaganda.

The difference of cultures & religions may induce a whole range of mental incompatibilities that can't be levelled just by military force or by the prospect of the "American Dream".

We, as westerners, often take as granted that our political, economical & social model is the right "thing". Now, our technical, military & financial might is so extended that at no moment we even consider hypothetically "what if" if it could be the other way around.


I believe, this is one of the hardest things for ANY american, to do. We seem to have been conditioned with a "ZERO TOLORANCE" mentality, which literally REFUSES to acknowledge anything other than a linear perspective.

quote:

We have to fight terrorism, but certainly not by going all guns blazing through the world and saying look, that's how the game has to be played, you are either with us or against us. That's just a great way to create havoc and resentment. Time does not run at the same pace for every culture, nor has money the same impact.


I agree. Our perspective,in being a SUPER POWER, is one of the root causes for the American population's blindness. Another root cause, is the REACTIONARY reponse to 9/11. The actions which followed were NOT logical,in finding solution, but radical, to ensure gratification to a people, in shock..and this was done..REGARDLESS of consequence. This is ANOTHER reason, for my stand AGAINST the bush administration's present position ,in regard to INTERNATIONAL policy.

quote:

The superficiality of our society of consumption has somewhat lowered our capacity to understand foreign concepts. We take care about our families, jobs, positions, debts, belongings. We live in transaction-based models, where the transaction is the fundamental source of almost every social process. Our god is "performance" and "material enrichment".

Well, that's not the way of many cultures. Look simply at Irak, Afghanistan or Pakistan. If money would have the same impact as in our countries, fighting would have stopped long ago due to delations given the rewards offered by the US.


Now, regardless of how elequate, it is stated, I see Many Americans taking resentment to the facts you mention here; thus, they deny it's existance.

Most, are not able to recognize, any seperation, in regard to materialistic morality, and the CAPITOLISTIC foundation and practice of our form of government. The whole Judeo-Christian branch, within the UNITED STATES, is virtually consumed, with materialistic accumulation, and SEE no contradiction within their doctrinal belief, and the most BASIC teachings, of their christ... Those teachings which condemn materialism are justified by our present social structure. I do not believe, the general public, who care, are even aware of ANY conflict. Many do not care. Those are usually ignorant, to the reality of cultural differences throughout the world, and only know what they see within their community...MOST do NOT travel internationally on any regular basis. Perhaps, this has something to do with their gullability to political propaghanda.

quote:

Fighting terrorism require multilateral & differenciated actions. In fact, the origin of frustration of many arabs is a feeling of the unfairness concerning the quality of life of the palestinians. And it is precisely because touching at Israel is a tabou from a US perspective that there is no solution in sight. This arab frustration is one of the main seeds who benefits terrorism propaganda, manipulation & recruitment, whatever may be the education from involved individuals. Then there is religious extremism. In both sides. How may you put at the same table two peeps who are each convinced that their land belong to them by divine will ?


AGAIN, you absolutely correct. Solution is NOT so linear. Our present Administration, is using a LINEAR and agressive stance.Though this is beneficial to him politically, I fear it has obscured those OTHER areas of concern.

The Palastinian problem, is certainly at the CORE, of this WHOLE situation. I believe EVERYONE knows that, but there is NO real answer. If neither side, is willing to compromise, there is NO solution. NOT, that I agree with the present situation either. I believe, until a workable compromise is DEFINED...the United States, will continue turning a blind eye toward the actions of Isreal, and palastine alike.

There are possible scenerios, where solution could be FORCED, upon BOTH countries, but would certainly be stoking a flame, which burns all to high, as it is. This, is the ultimate eventuality, be that our government continue to follow it's present course. This MUST be avoided, at all cost. To divide, the WORLD, into only TWO opposing sides, would inevitably ignite a WORLD war, best left to the imagination.

quote:

We have to admit that at our current level of evolution, powers & superpowers, US, Russia, China and a few others, still prefer to push a partisan agenda instead of trying to genuinely solve matters, because this would imply to take a hard stance against some of their allies. US->Israel, China->NK, etc...

I am very pessimistic about the outcome. To fight you have to understand and see with the eyes of your enemy. This implies a knowledge of foreign cultures that simply doesen't fit in our lifestyle. It is very difficult to stop a human who has decided to give its life for a cause. It is easier to undermine the context who has the potential to push a human to such an extreme decision.


The context, in regard to the WHOLE "terrorist" situation, has been successfully undermined. The call for war, the propaghanda, and the speed which our country went to war, was that which initiated it. This is the BIGGEST moral crime, revolving around this whole matter.

To declare a man to be a fanatic, because he is willing to die for a cause. And to declare a nation Justified, for killing a man willing to die for a cause......AND then, IGNORE the root cause for the interaction. It is either short sighted, plain ignorant, or CRIMINAL ARROGANCE...based on the awareness of those involved.

quote:

But again, politics... Fighting militarly is spectacular and swift. Fighting culturally may take a very long time, but at the end, the achieved change is deeply rooted, and not only circumstancial, playing by the rule of the mighty only as long as its presence lasts...

TRUE!! Americans, cannot, and will not...face, even a remote POSSIBILITY, that they will NOT ALWAYS be the FORCE, upon the world...they are today. I believe, we have INTENTIONALLY been lied to, and are essentially blind to ANY solution, but MILITARY subjugation. Meaning: "The American People as a whole". The whole issue, has been dismissed. No alternative solutions have EVER been presented. I believe, the extreme right wing party, has'nt the patience for the time it takes for cultural intervention to work, and have omitted it's publlicity; thus, its validity , as an option for the American position.

quote:

Just take a look at France. Its foreign politic is not cleaner than other countries. But they have achieved something: muslims and jews living togheter. Of course, there is some extremism, like everywhere else. And despite Sharon hopes, french jew emigration towards Israel still is confined to the few hundreds per year. How did they achieve this ? First, by exercising a strong monitoring of Islam. For ex. the highest islamic authority is designed by the french government. This allows to contain extremist proselytism. Then by enforcing equal treatment of confessions in the structure of an anticonfessional state in public schools, thus inducing children to interact according to their cultural differences instead of the religious ones. The system isn't perfect of course. But France is probably the only western state that is well considered even by poor arabs, despite an unconfessional stance. Surprised ? Well, it took time :-)

Sadly, our currant President, has practically made any American, who did not favor his war, to be ENEMIES of the state. This same perception, was bent toward any country within the international community, which stood against his war. This means FRANCE. One would think, someone would recognized the system, implimented within France, and expound upon it. But, again...why would they? The muslims who live here seem passive enough.

You, my friend, have a most balanced, and realistic perception concerning this whole matter. One which many could benefit from.

I commend you.

[ 08-18-2004, 04:17 PM: Message edited by: street ]

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quote:

I do not believe that discussions, as sensitive may be the subject, shall allow our emotions to appear. These emotions are legitime, but their expression seldom help solutions. Instead, you often get stuck in sterile action-reaction personal exchanges.


You are absolutely correct. This WHOLE situation: "9/11 > Iraq" Is , in itself, an ACTION-REACTION scenerio, which has YET to be recognized. Thus, the emotion runs deep, and resides near the surface.

quote:

From a security perspective, we judeo-christians are all in the same boat, from Iceland to Brasil. There is no need to let our thinking be limited by the frame of classic ideologies. We also know that "Errare humanum est", and errors may help us to evolve, as long as there is a genuine motivation to make things "right" not according to our wishes or dreams, but according to pragmatism and taking into account specific geostrategic & cultural contexts even if we do not share all their values.


Yes, "To Err, is human", but there is NO benefit, regardless of intent, if the ERROR is NOT recognized, and dealt with. Where then, would the benefit from LEARNING be achieved? This is an example of the culturally radical CHRISTIAN perspective, which I was referring to, in my previous post. Our present administration has declared the IRAQ Invasion as "RIGHTIOUS" ;therefore, any mistakes made, are not under proper consideration, for PREVENTING a repeat scenerio.

This, is a security concern, which needs be recognized, by EVERY nation of the world...AMERICA FIRST.

I wish more people had enough objectivity to take the geostrategic & cultural contexts into consideration.My hope, is that the Kerry political platform is aware, of this perspective. I believe he is, based on what I have seen, in regard to his campaign.

quote:

Among many other places, I have spent several years in the middle-east, and not precisely as a tourist. So my knowledge doesen't come from CNN, FoxNews or some government propaganda.

The difference of cultures & religions may induce a whole range of mental incompatibilities that can't be levelled just by military force or by the prospect of the "American Dream".

We, as westerners, often take as granted that our political, economical & social model is the right "thing". Now, our technical, military & financial might is so extended that at no moment we even consider hypothetically "what if" if it could be the other way around.


I believe, this is one of the hardest things for ANY american, to do. We seem to have been conditioned with a "ZERO TOLORANCE" mentality, which literally REFUSES to acknowledge anything other than a linear perspective.

quote:

We have to fight terrorism, but certainly not by going all guns blazing through the world and saying look, that's how the game has to be played, you are either with us or against us. That's just a great way to create havoc and resentment. Time does not run at the same pace for every culture, nor has money the same impact.


I agree. Our perspective,in being a SUPER POWER, is one of the root causes for the American population's blindness. Another root cause, is the REACTIONARY reponse to 9/11. The actions which followed were NOT logical,in finding solution, but radical, to ensure gratification to a people, in shock..and this was done..REGARDLESS of consequence. This is ANOTHER reason, for my stand AGAINST the bush administration's present position ,in regard to INTERNATIONAL policy.

quote:

The superficiality of our society of consumption has somewhat lowered our capacity to understand foreign concepts. We take care about our families, jobs, positions, debts, belongings. We live in transaction-based models, where the transaction is the fundamental source of almost every social process. Our god is "performance" and "material enrichment".

Well, that's not the way of many cultures. Look simply at Irak, Afghanistan or Pakistan. If money would have the same impact as in our countries, fighting would have stopped long ago due to delations given the rewards offered by the US.


Now, regardless of how elequate, it is stated, I see Many Americans taking resentment to the facts you mention here; thus, they deny it's existance.

Most, are not able to recognize, any seperation, in regard to materialistic morality, and the CAPITOLISTIC foundation and practice of our form of government. The whole Judeo-Christian branch, within the UNITED STATES, is virtually consumed, with materialistic accumulation, and SEE no contradiction within their doctrinal belief, and the most BASIC teachings, of their christ... Those teachings which condemn materialism are justified by our present social structure. I do not believe, the general public, who care, are even aware of ANY conflict. Many do not care. Those are usually ignorant, to the reality of cultural differences throughout the world, and only know what they see within their community...MOST do NOT travel internationally on any regular basis. Perhaps, this has something to do with their gullability to political propaghanda.

quote:

Fighting terrorism require multilateral & differenciated actions. In fact, the origin of frustration of many arabs is a feeling of the unfairness concerning the quality of life of the palestinians. And it is precisely because touching at Israel is a tabou from a US perspective that there is no solution in sight. This arab frustration is one of the main seeds who benefits terrorism propaganda, manipulation & recruitment, whatever may be the education from involved individuals. Then there is religious extremism. In both sides. How may you put at the same table two peeps who are each convinced that their land belong to them by divine will ?


AGAIN, you absolutely correct. Solution is NOT so linear. Our present Administration, is using a LINEAR and agressive stance.Though this is beneficial to him politically, I fear it has obscured those OTHER areas of concern.

The Palastinian problem, is certainly at the CORE, of this WHOLE situation. I believe EVERYONE knows that, but there is NO real answer. If neither side, is willing to compromise, there is NO solution. NOT, that I agree with the present situation either. I believe, until a workable compromise is DEFINED...the United States, will continue turning a blind eye toward the actions of Isreal, and palastine alike.

There are possible scenerios, where solution could be FORCED, upon BOTH countries, but would certainly be stoking a flame, which burns all to high, as it is. This, is the ultimate eventuality, be that our government continue to follow it's present course. This MUST be avoided, at all cost. To divide, the WORLD, into only TWO opposing sides, would inevitably ignite a WORLD war, best left to the imagination.

quote:

We have to admit that at our current level of evolution, powers & superpowers, US, Russia, China and a few others, still prefer to push a partisan agenda instead of trying to genuinely solve matters, because this would imply to take a hard stance against some of their allies. US->Israel, China->NK, etc...

I am very pessimistic about the outcome. To fight you have to understand and see with the eyes of your enemy. This implies a knowledge of foreign cultures that simply doesen't fit in our lifestyle. It is very difficult to stop a human who has decided to give its life for a cause. It is easier to undermine the context who has the potential to push a human to such an extreme decision.


The context, in regard to the WHOLE "terrorist" situation, has been successfully undermined. The call for war, the propaghanda, and the speed which our country went to war, was that which initiated it. This is the BIGGEST moral crime, revolving around this whole matter.

To declare a man to be a fanatic, because he is willing to die for a cause. And to declare a nation Justified, for killing a man willing to die for a cause......AND then, IGNORE the root cause for the interaction. It is either short sighted, plain ignorant, or CRIMINAL ARROGANCE...based on the awareness of those involved.

quote:

But again, politics... Fighting militarly is spectacular and swift. Fighting culturally may take a very long time, but at the end, the achieved change is deeply rooted, and not only circumstancial, playing by the rule of the mighty only as long as its presence lasts...

TRUE!! Americans, cannot, and will not...face, even a remote POSSIBILITY, that they will NOT ALWAYS be the FORCE, upon the world...they are today. I believe, we have INTENTIONALLY been lied to, and are essentially blind to ANY solution, but MILITARY subjugation. Meaning: "The American People as a whole". The whole issue, has been dismissed. No alternative solutions have EVER been presented. I believe, the extreme right wing party, has'nt the patience for the time it takes for cultural intervention to work, and have omitted it's publlicity; thus, its validity , as an option for the American position.

quote:

Just take a look at France. Its foreign politic is not cleaner than other countries. But they have achieved something: muslims and jews living togheter. Of course, there is some extremism, like everywhere else. And despite Sharon hopes, french jew emigration towards Israel still is confined to the few hundreds per year. How did they achieve this ? First, by exercising a strong monitoring of Islam. For ex. the highest islamic authority is designed by the french government. This allows to contain extremist proselytism. Then by enforcing equal treatment of confessions in the structure of an anticonfessional state in public schools, thus inducing children to interact according to their cultural differences instead of the religious ones. The system isn't perfect of course. But France is probably the only western state that is well considered even by poor arabs, despite an unconfessional stance. Surprised ? Well, it took time :-)

Sadly, our currant President, has practically made any American, who did not favor his war, to be ENEMIES of the state. This same perception, was bent toward any country within the international community, which stood against his war. This means FRANCE. One would think, someone would recognized the system, implimented within France, and expound upon it. But, again...why would they? The muslims who live here seem passive enough.

You, my friend, have a most balanced, and realistic perception concerning this whole matter. One which many could benefit from.

I commend you.

[ 08-18-2004, 04:17 PM: Message edited by: street ]

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