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Cruis.In

Americas Army

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ahaha, cool thread eh? Anyway this quote is borrowed from hellbinder in the arts forum in the topic Over There.

quote:

From wverything i have read it is extremely slanted against the military by showing them to be drug using freaks, fools, disgruntled etc etc etc..

I can't speak for the freak, or fool part, but as for disgruntled, I've been thinking lately how I would feel being away from my wife and kid for months and months and months and never knowing when or If I'll return home or if some godforsaken iraqi insurgent will get me first, I'd be a little disgruntled, and I think even the biggest patriot would be too.

Simply because they'll be asking themselves what are we really doing in Iraq? If it's world war 2 and there fighting for the greatest cause you know you could fight for, then they can justify it and sit it out. But all your little infantrymen are just in iraq because someone told them they had to go.

And by what are we really doing, I mean, rebuilding? I'm here for months and months away from my wife, and my kid, and I'm here building some stinking country where some of the people are trying to kill me?

People are only human, and these thoughts will go through your soldiers minds. No matter their conditioning.

So disgruntled might not be far off.

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You are right Cruis.in - I can understand how any soldier can begin to lose faith under such strenuous conditions. It is important to understand though, that this does not decrease their stature one iota. These men and women are doing fantastic in a unbeleivably difficult situation. That they are human is no surprise. But their honor is unquestionable.

I think your sig says it all, cruis.in.

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Guest Capn Crunch

They just want to come home, they were thrust into a war under false pretenses. why can't they just come home?

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quote:

they were thrust into a war under false pretenses.

Wrong.

quote:

why can't they just come home?

Because then the terrorists will have won and our fallen soldiers' sacrifices would be in vein.

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Guest

quote:

Originally posted by Capn Crunch:

They just want to come home, they were thrust into a war under false pretenses. why can't they just come home?

Look who's back...

They DO NOT want to just come home.

How dare you put words into our brave soldiers mouths.

I have never heard such nonsense.

Typical liberal cowardice....

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Such nonsense torques me off no end.

To hear people say such things.

What? You think that people join the Army, or make it a career because they don't expect to go to war?

When you join the military, you are risking your life, this is a fact.

There are MORE people killed in training every year, then have been killed in the Iraqi war.

Our brave men and Women KNOW what their mission is, and are accomplishing it. I know 10 men who have come back from Iraq, and are VERY proud of what they have done.

THe press of course does NOT cover these aspects because it would go against their agenda of hate Bush ALL the time, and Iraq is another Vietnam.

Such total and unmitigated nonsense.

You are more likely to get killed in a car accident, or by a drunk driver, then you are to get killed in Iraq.

These men and women are doing their jobs, and doing it well.

Some may wish to come home, but they signed a contract, and they took an oath, and because they are honorable, they have chosen to fulfill their duty.

Just as I did.

The Iraqi war, Iraqi Freedom was the fastest, least bloddy conflict in HISTORY.

We took that country faster, and with the least fatalities then ANY war, and I mean ANY war in history. THe civilian cost was low, the military cost was low, and the conflict itself happened so fast that even the high command was amazed, and they planned it.

This part of the war, which is still part of it, is taking a LONG time, but not NEARLY as long as the commanders expected it to. We are close to 2 years AHEAD of where we thought that we'd be, but now the press is hounding, the public is hounding, everyone wants it now.

Well, it doesn't work that way.

Quit armchair quarterbacking, and let the people that know what they are doing handle it.

They know what is happening on the ground, they are the ones who know what is ACTUALLY going on.

Our soldiers will come home when the job is done, not a minute before, and not a minute after.

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yes Prez it doesn't decrease there status one iota. And Jaguar, your passion is misguided. It's one thing to sign up to defend your country, to sign a contract pledging this, to sign a contract knowing you could go to war, but to sign a contract to go where they are?

That;s the whole point, they'll be telling themselves they didn't sign up for this.

Maybe iraq is just a foothold, but it seems a little strange to believe that its where the last battle against terrorism will be won or fought.

no one ever questioned anyone's bravery... so referencing it is a non issue.

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quote:

Originally posted by Jaguar:

Such nonsense torques me off no end.

To hear people say such things.

What? You think that people join the Army, or make it a career because they don't expect to go to war?

When you join the military, you are risking your life, this is a fact.

There are MORE people killed in training every year, then have been killed in the Iraqi war.

Our brave men and Women KNOW what their mission is, and are accomplishing it. I know 10 men who have come back from Iraq, and are VERY proud of what they have done.

THe press of course does NOT cover these aspects because it would go against their agenda of hate Bush ALL the time, and Iraq is another Vietnam.

Such total and unmitigated nonsense.


for the billionth time.

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Guest Remo Williams

quote:

yes Prez it doesn't decrease there status one iota. And Jaguar, your passion is misguided. It's one thing to sign up to defend your country, to sign a contract pledging this, to sign a contract knowing you could go to war, but to sign a contract to go where they are?


They were sent there IMO to liberate the Iraqi people from the oppression of a brutal dictator, which I've stated several times as to why I supported this conflicted.

They have done their job well we have lost far less during this entire conflict than we lose right here at home from crime in a year. So what are we suppose to do pull out of the US also because of the casualties.

Once they have secured the freedom and liberty of the Iraqi people their job will be done and they will come home. I would put money on not one of them wanting to leave their unit and friends behind to come home before the job is done. Obviously you do not know the character of an American soldier.

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Guest Grayfox

quote:

It's one thing to sign up to defend your country, to sign a contract pledging this, to sign a contract knowing you could go to war, but to sign a contract to go where they are?


that didnt make any sense??? maybe im not getting your reference?

ummm its a volunteer military, you should expect to be sent anywhere. when i volunteered i didnt want to go to haiti, or kosovo, or bosnia, but i expected it. i also expected somalia, but luckily i missed being shipped out by a month...boz was bad enough.

if they didnt see iraq coming... you pledged an OATH, i know that doesnt mean much nowadays but to some of us it does.

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quote:

why not liberate all the african countries with brutal dictators too then.

Ignore the typical liberal claptrap and rote answers for a minute.

1) The US was involved in a mission in Afghanistan at the time of the beginning of the Iraq war. How many wars do you think it is prudent to fight at once?

2) Our mission was battling terrorism through liberation and the overthrow of a brutal agressor with ties to terrorism.

3) Before you say it, Iraq (and the region as a whole) was more of a threat than North Korea. Our goal is to eliminate those who would attack the US again. Clearly, with the multitude of terrorist training camps in Iraq and the surrounding region, this would be accomplished in the middle east much better than in a remote, isolated country led my a paranoid idiot worried about holding onto his own power more than anything else.

quote:

Maybe iraq is just a foothold, but it seems a little strange to believe that its where the last battle against terrorism will be won or fought.

Why? Because you would hate to admit that something done by an administration with an opposing political affiliation to yours did something that not only sounded the beginning of the end for terrorism, but also freed 25 million people from the torment and suffering of a brutal animal?

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As a side note, I think it is telling that the vast majority of posters here with military experience (myself included) are vehemently IN FAVOR of the mission in Iraq and the war on terror.

And that was an excellent post Jag. Kudos!

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I dont have a political affiliation. I have an affiliation to humility. I have affiliation to care about others. This topic is the realization that it is not totally unbelievable to think that some of america's army may be disgruntled. How it grew into this is beyond me.

People are human first, and anything else afterwards. Being a soldier, a police, or anything of the sort doesn't make you tougher, braver, or better than the next man.

So an american soldier isn't brave simply because he is an american soldier. And he isn't a coward simply because he is disgruntled.

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I get the feeling you have never met any soldiers. This is not a slam against you; just an observation. If I am wrong, please tell me.

And no one denied that some soldiers may be disgruntled. Hell, I am disgruntled at work. But I keep doing it. Why? Because it's my JOB. The one that keeps my family eating, and living under a roof. How much more important is the job that soliders do? They may be disgruntled, and sometimes the pressure may get the best of them, but these men are the finest America has to offer. The non-brave ones don't last very long, believe me.

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course I've met em, I used to bug the bored marines on late night duty at the american embassy when I was working in the mobile patrol division.

I used to make them come down 3 flights of stairs to see if they were alright, and never leave the intercom alone until he came down.

But chatting with one who has fought in a war would be different wouldn't it.

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quote:

Originally posted by Prez:

As a side note, I think it is telling that the vast majority of posters here with military experience (myself included) are vehemently IN FAVOR of the mission in Iraq and the war on terror.

And that was an excellent post Jag. Kudos!

You're right and so is Jag, but it's only one point of view. Just because someone chooses to be in the military does not give them the right to slag off on those that have opposing ideals. They are not only fighting for the cause, they are fighting for the right of people to disagree with it.

I respect all men and women of the military and truly appreciate the sacrifice, but to use that as some sort of sledgehammer to belittle or condescend those that don't participate or agree is disgustingly arrogant. Especially in light of the fact that they choose to do it.

They are soldiers, not military martyrs.

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quote:

They are not only fighting for the cause, they are fighting for the right of people to disagree with it.

Absolutely. And so long as the disagreement is done with respect regarding our soldiers' sacrifices, I have no quarrels with said disagreement.

Dissension is always a touchy thing at a time of war. It can be detrimental to troop morale if taken too far, like our media is constantly doing. But a good point Grizzle.

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After reading this thread, I want to say I agree completely with what Jag said, and he said it very well.

All I really have to say about this arguement is based on the friends I have that are either in Iraq right now or have recently returned.

Those that are there are not unhappy about being there. Those who have already returned from deployment can't wait to go back.

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good send them back forever if they like.

One thing that gets me is the hostility shown towards myself.

because I raised none of the subjects Jaguar blasted back in his post. I only refered to the fact that its possible alot are disgruntled and why they might be and those are fair reasons to be, if you are human.

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Guest

quote:

Originally posted by Cruis.In:

good send them back forever if they like.

One thing that gets me is the hostility shown towards myself.

because I raised none of the subjects Jaguar blasted back in his post. I only refered to the fact that its possible alot are disgruntled and why they might be and those are fair reasons to be, if you are human.

Please Cruis.in, I got angry because you were putting down our men and women in uniform, whether you meant to or not.

DO NOT project what you think, onto those that actually wear the uniform.

Many people are incapable of the discipline and hardships of the military, and those that can't hack it, are normally out in the first 2 weeks of basic training.

In 1986, when I was in basic training, we lost 5 guys because they couldn't hack it in the first 2 weeks.

Less then honarable, because they didn't finish their TOS, (term of service) and that was that.

If they don't want to be there, they WON'T be there. There are ways of getting out of it, because the military is a PROFESSIONAL, volunteer army, and does NOT want those that can't or won't handle it.

Yes, sometimes the morale falls, but that is mainly due to outside forces, family troubles, death in the family, media reports, lack of support from back home, etc, etc, ad nauseum.

BUT, you have your unit, you have your freinds in that unit, and if the commander is a good one, and most are, the morale in the unit and with each individual soldier will be high no matter what the conditions.

When I hear people spout off the nonsense that you spewed forth, I get angry, because that is a MAJOR putdown to our military forces that are in harms way.

SO, I am sorry if my reaction upset you, but you should have expected it.

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quote:

Originally posted by Jaguar:

BUT, you have your unit, you have your freinds in that unit, and if the commander is a good one, and most are, the morale in the unit and with each individual soldier will be high no matter what the conditions.


Very well said Jag. I agree with that and believe that it is that type of atmosphere that helps enable our soldiers to fight as they do. I also believe it is the reason why so many are wanting to go back. It has nothing to do with bloodlust, or whether or not they agree with the decisions their superiors made. Regardless of what they thing, they're there and they have a job to do with their brothers. If they fail to do that job, people WILL die.

Those that want to go back, from my experience, are wanting to return because their 'brothers and sisters in arms' are still over there and dying. I have never once heard them question the fact that they were sent there, why, because it doesn't change the fact that they have a job to do. Sure they may complain about little annoyances every once in a while, and, yes, they may be scared at times. But it's words like "duty, honor, loyalty, and brotherhood" that mean most to these soliders. And, that, is what I feel this thread hinges on.

Most soldiers out there aren't going to let the little anoyances get in the way of them doing their job. And they will do it to the best of their ability, even if it costs their life in order to complete it.

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Iraq HAD ties to terrorism. Whether or not it had specific ties to 9/11 (which it apparently didn't) is irrelevant. A terrorist is a terrorist, whether he is in Palestine (if such a place can be said to exist) or in London.

Nomad, your assertion that the mission was changed due to "successive investigations showing that all previous justifications weren't matched by facts gathered on the field..." is wrong.

Iraq HAD weapons of mass destruction and materials needed to start a nuclear program. It is indisputable. What became of them between the mid-90's and the start of the war in 2001 has never been determined.

Terrorist training camps HAVE been discovered in Iraq. And they were NOT established after the invasion. That would be asinine. Or haven't you seen the fuselage and cabin from the "hijacker-training" facility?

Saddam's histroy of unprovoked aggression against our allies in the region (Kuwait and Israel) made him a clear target imo, as did his unwillingness to comply with SEVENTEEN prior UN resolutions.

Debating the necessity of the Iraq war has become a moot point by now, hasn't it?

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quote:

DO NOT project what you think, onto those that actually wear the uniform.

absurd.

quote:

In 1986, when I was in basic training, we lost 5 guys because they couldn't hack it in the first 2 weeks.

Less then honarable, because they didn't finish their TOS, (term of service) and that was that.

are you for real? You need a lesson in humility my friend, humble yourself first then judge others, you think that those 5 or any others are LESS honourable than you because they didn't make it at being a soldier? That is just rubbish.

From that statement alone it is easy to infer that you believe you're better, more important and more full of 'honour' just because you are a soldier.

quote:

When I hear people spout off the nonsense that you spewed forth, I get angry, because that is a MAJOR putdown to our military forces that are in harms way.

Saying that they some might be human and that some might not know what they are doing is a put down to them? A put down to who, you? You who believe in the cause and the rest? It is no put down to say how you feel, and if a soldier is tired, and wants to go home, does that make him less than honourable?

Your anger clouds your reasonability.

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