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Israeli Soldiers Clear Out Gaza Strip


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NEVE DEKALIM, Gaza Strip -- Israeli troops dragged sobbing Jewish settlers out of homes, synagogues and even a nursery school Wednesday and hauled them onto buses in a massive evacuation, fulfilling Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's promise to withdraw from the Gaza Strip after a 38-year occupation.

Soldiers carried away worshippers still wrapped in their white prayer shawls. Wailing men ripped their shirts in a Jewish mourning ritual. Women in a synagogue pressed their faces against the curtain covering the Torah scroll. A woman set herself on fire at a police roadblock in Israel.

In Gaza, settlers kicked and screamed as they were loaded onto buses. One woman in Neve Dekalim shouted, "I don't want to! I don't want to!" as she was carried away.

Irate residents in one outpost employed Nazi-era imagery _ including stars of David on their T-shirts _ to protest the military's actions.

But there were no signs of serious violence in the settlements as a growing number of residents appeared to be coming to terms with the withdrawal.

"I believed that God would not let this happen, but this is not true," a woman said in the isolated settlement of Morag while clutching her baby.

Sharon, who championed the settlements for years, said the images of settlers being removed from their homes were heartbreaking.

"It's impossible to watch this, and that includes myself, without tears in the eyes," he told a news conference.

But he urged settlers to show restraint.

"I'm appealing to everyone. Don't attack the men and women in uniform. Don't accuse them. Don't make it harder for them, don't harm them. Attack me. I am responsible for this. Attack me. Accuse me," Sharon said.

The operation capped a bruising political battle for Sharon, who proposed the withdrawal more than 18 months ago as a way to reduce friction with the Palestinians. Opponents accuse him of caving in to Palestinian violence and abandoning the dream of full control over the biblical Land of Israel.

Throughout the day, some 14,000 troops entered six Jewish settlements: Morag, Neve Dekalim, Bedolah, Ganei Tal, Tel Katifa and Kerem Atzmona.

In several settlements, including the largest _ Neve Dekalim, army commanders were trying to persuade residents to leave voluntarily.

Security officials said the goal was to clear out the 21 Gaza settlements in just a few days, far more quickly than originally planned. But thousands of pullout opponents who infiltrated Gaza in recent weeks remained.

In Neve Dekalim, a grizzled colonel, with tears in his eyes, shook hands with a young father, cradling the man's tiny baby, as he explained it was time to go.

Another commander, identified only as Yitzhak, tearfully hugged another settler.

"It's not easy. These are very special people. This is the salt of the earth," Yitzhak said. "But we have a mission and we will carry it out, and I think these people understand that."

Some teenage activists _ many West Bank activists _ showed fierce resistance. Troops dragged dozens of protesters, some as young as 12, onto buses and took them away.

"I want to die!" screamed one youth as he was hauled off.

Several soldiers were hit by white paint bombs, and protesters smashed a bus window.

Hundreds of protesters holed up in the town's main synagogue.

A group of teenage girls sang, "I believe in the messiah," and many cried while pressing their faces to the curtain covering the Torah.

In Morag, soldiers encountered cement blocks and burning garbage containers early Wednesday, briefly clashing with residents. But as the day dragged on, protesters gradually surrendered.

Under a weeping willow tree at a children's nursery, mothers clutched their babies, soldiers carried toddlers, settlers ripped their clothes and troops loaded diapers and toys onto buses for evacuation.

A female soldier with tears in her eyes held a toddler in her arms, gave him some candy and implored, "Where is his mother?" Another soldier waved away flies from a toddler lying in a stroller.

Troops carried dozens of worshippers out of the local synagogue, in one case escorting a crying man covered by a prayer shawl. Some kept praying in front of the Torah as soldiers removed others.

Soldiers also removed families from their homes. Female residents walked out under army escort, while the men let themselves by carried. One resident, Eran Hendel, lay on the floor, read a psalm and ripped his shirt collar before being carried away.

In the hardline outpost of Kerem Atzmona, irate settlers shouted at soldiers: "Nazi!" "Refuse orders!" and "Jews don't expel Jews!" Soldiers dragged the flailing residents out of their homes and loaded them onto buses, as children sat in their homes crying.

In the Bedolah settlement, Rabbi Menachem Froman hugged and kissed a Torah scroll as he was led out of the local synagogue. A soldier held him up by the elbow. The elderly, white-bearded rabbi, who lives in a West Bank settlement, advocates coexistence with the Palestinians.

In Kfar Darom, another center of fierce resistance, 65 families and 2,000 protesters barricaded themselves behind barbed wire but said they would not resist violently, the Haaretz newspaper reported.

The Gaza pullout is to be accompanied by a withdrawal from four small West Bank settlements. Security officials have expressed fears that the West Bank pullout could be more violent, given the land's biblical significance to observant Jews.

A 54-year-old West Bank woman opposed to the Gaza pullout set herself on fire Wednesday in southern Israel, suffering life-threatening burns over 70 percent of her body, police and hospital officials said. She had the smell of gas on her, a paramedic said.

Sharon, meanwhile, reiterated Wednesday he would never give up the West Bank's largest settlement blocs. He said settlers' efforts were not in vain, but it no longer was realistic to hold on to Gaza, where 1.3 million Palestinians live in crowded, impoverished conditions.

"True they (settlers) had a dream, and I did, too, that can we hold on to all the territory, or most of the territory, but things have changed," Sharon said.

The army said it arrested 52 Israelis headed Wednesday to Homesh, one of the settlements slated for evacuation.

Once Gaza is cleared of civilians, it will take troops about a month to dismantle military installations and relinquish the coastal strip to Palestinian control.

The Palestinians have deployed thousands of troops to prevent any attacks on settlers or Israeli soldiers during the withdrawal. Palestinians have welcomed the evacuation but also fear that Israel is trying to draw borders without negotiations.

Washington Post

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THis is a HUGE mistake, they have just rewarded terrorism.

This will now inflame the terrorists, and more Israelis will now die because of this stupidity.

THis is a war, and in war, there MUST be a clear winner, and a clear loser, the terrorists are now emboldened, they believe that they are winning.

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OR They have given a good argument to the people believing peaceful solution amongst Palestinians by showing that they are ready to sacrifice for a peaceful solution(which would encourage Palestinians to do the same).. And possibly affected recruitment rate of terrorists(in a positive way).

quote:

THis is a HUGE mistake, they have just rewarded terrorism.

I dont believe what happened was only "terrorists" wish,but your above statement means only they are heard(unforunately)..

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I have not read or heard of any compelling arguments that can demonstrate that this will ameliorate the terrorism against Israel.

Ex-IDF Chief of Staff Gen. Ayalon and Ex-Head of ShinBet Avi Dichter both conclude that this will not end the terrorism.

Leaders from Hamas, Hizbullah, PFLP, Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, and Fatah all see this as a victory for their "resistance".

Israel has already sacrificed for peace, thousands of dead civilians, tens of thousands wounded, homes and lives destroyed. Multiple peace offers, conferences, negotiating sessions, JOBS (remember the gaza settlements gave employment to the pals...gone), etc. etc. When will we see some good will from the Arabs ? Maybe dismantle some Arab settlements near Jewish cities ? Or disarm the terrorist groups ? Elect some leaders that are not terrorists or holocaust deniers ....

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Guest Remo Williams

Giving away Israeli land which is rightfully theirs to the Palestinians is not the answers IMO. Gaza never did belong to the Palestinians they may have squaded on it claiming it as their own for the last 2000 years, but that land belongs to Israel. The only true solution would have been to drive the Palestinians out of Gaza back to Jordan where they orignated from about 2000 years ago. The people that lived in that land prior to the birth of Israel some where around 4000 years ago were not the Palestinians.

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I don't think the U.N. or any modern day nations care about Israel's biblical claim to the land.

The evangelical christians in the USA on the other hand do seem to lend us some support because of those claims. We have yet to see how that plays out in the political arena. In the tourism arena it's been, well, weird, but GREAT.

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Giving away Israeli land which is rightfully theirs to the Palestinians is not the answers IMO. Gaza never did belong to the Palestinians they may have squaded on it claiming it as their own for the last 2000 years, but that land belongs to Israel. The only true solution would have been to drive the Palestinians out of Gaza back to Jordan where they orignated from about 2000 years ago. The people that lived in that land prior to the birth of Israel some where around 4000 years ago were not the Palestinians.

Agreed.

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The only thing that will stop the Terrorists is the complete distruction of Isreal, nothing else.

Something that will bear out as Israel gives in more and more to the Palestinians while the terrorism continues unabated.

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Giving away Israeli land which is rightfully theirs to the Palestinians is not the answers IMO. Gaza never did belong to the Palestinians they may have squaded on it claiming it as their own for the last 2000 years, but that land belongs to Israel.

Care to explain how is that land "rightfully" theirs? This statement piqued my interest,I would like to know more about it.I hope it is more than a "biblical claim".

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quote:

Originally posted by Wolfheart:

quote:

Giving away Israeli land which is rightfully theirs to the Palestinians is not the answers IMO. Gaza never did belong to the Palestinians they may have squaded on it claiming it as their own for the last 2000 years, but that land belongs to Israel.

Care to explain how is that land "rightfully" theirs? This statement piqued my interest,I would like to know more about it.I hope it is more than a "biblical claim".


It's been a while since I've read the Bible but I remember a passage where God had commanded the Isralies to destroy the Philistines (from whom the Palestines have decended) along with thier valuables, but in thier infinite wisdom, they decided instead to only conquer and subjugate them and take the spoils of war. I guess God knew this was coming. However, it's been a while since I've read the Bible so I could be mistaken on this. As for your comment on hoping it was more than a "Biblical" Claim, most of the Bible's history has been proven archeologically so it's a fairly accurate History book.
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It's been a while since I've read the Bible but I remember a passage where God had commanded the Isralies to destroy the Philistines (from whom the Palestines have decended) along with thier valuables, but in thier infinite wisdom, they decided instead to only conquer and subjugate them and take the spoils of war

I fail to see which part of this makes the land "rightfully theirs" *now*

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It's been fought and bled for since 1960. I think they've earned it, regardless of any historical or tribal claims.

I'm not about to start turning over the United States to the Indians.

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Guest Remo Williams

Nomad

The primary genetic link between Israelites and Palestinians Arabs is due to Abraham who is the father of both races. While it is true I'm sure that there has been other mixing of the bloodline throughout history the main link remains Abraham who both sides claim as an ancestor.

quote:

Care to explain how is that land "rightfully" theirs? This statement piqued my interest,I would like to know more about it.I hope it is more than a "biblical claim".


While the Biblical claim forms the base of this concept it is backed up by other sources of historical data from both Roman and Greek historical text among others. According to the bible the Jews were to be removed from the land and scatter as a nation around the world to someday return and reclaim their birth right to the land now know as Palestine.

In 70AD according to Roman history the Jews rebelled against Roman rule and exactly that was the outcome of their rebellion they were driven from the land the ones that survived anyway. Jerusalem was destroyed and the temple on the mount was razed to the ground according to Roman history, which also happens to be the same as was written in the bible.

Keep in mind the Israelites had won the land some 2000 years prior to this from the Canaanites and the Amalekites who were the primary dwellers on the land at that time. The Amalekites inhabited the plains while the Canaanites lived in the hills and valleys to the east. They both worshiped the Sun god Baal, which made them idol worshipers to the Israelis. There were also a very few Philistines that lived in the coastal range, but it is yet to be proven that they were descendants of the Palestinians.

Both claim the land because they lived in the land for about 2000 years the Palestinians for 2000 years after the Israelites were driven from the land by the Romans, and the Israelis lived there some 2000 years before the Palestinians so who's land is it? As in everything the ones that claimed it first IMO the land belongs to Israel.

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First of all thanks for the answer,Im somewhat uninformed about this issue so its good to know each sides arguments and their reasons.But there's still one point I wonder how you explain which is about the practical results of this idea,Nomad already mentioned it so Ill quote him:

"If we start to consider land property according to religious claims made more than 2000 years ago, we may very well start wars in every corner of the globe."

Edit.Well I just wondered another thing,since you use a highly subjective version of the word "belong",you probably understand palastinians claim on the land(since they use another subjective version) and understand the "resistance",right?

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Guest Remo Williams

I can understand their reluctance to give up the land that their ancestors have lived on for about 2000 years. If I were Palestinian I would probably resist also since this is the only home they know of after being there for so long.

To use the biblical claims alone to determine ownership without actual historical facts would be baseless. If we look at actual historical records from about that time it directly indicates that the Israelis were there first and did live there for as long or longer than the Palestinians, so the only way to determine who the land belongs to is who made the first claim of ownership which was done by the Israelis about 2000 years prior to the Palestinians.

Since there are no longer any Canaanites or Amalekites to dispute Israel's claim to the land its fairly easy to see who the land belongs to. Its hard on the Palestinians to admit this since it would mean giving up the only home they've ever known, so I can understand their resistance but unfortunately its a resistance to the truth of the matter as proven by world history not biblical claims.

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I must confess, I have become less and less sympathetic to the Palenstinian cause, whatever claim they could possibly make to the land, with each terrorist attack over the last 5 years. I understand that most Palestinians resist without terror but they know enough about Hamas et al, their locations and intentions, to bring them down, if they wished it. In short, they are okay with innocent Isaraelis being blown to bits because it is supposedly done in the name of a cause they agree with. This is reprehensible. When they get serious about stopping the murder of innocents, I will consider arguments for their rights to the land.

Also, good posts, Remo. Informative.

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Hello,

I read Nomad's essay on the genetic background of the Jews and how some Jews are related to the Palestinians. Without disputing the veracity of all the science that was cited, my comment is So What ?

The Khazar kingdom was a kingdom of converts.

See Rabbi Yehudah HaLevi's work, "The Kuzari" Judaism has had converts for as long as Judaism has existed. Why should the genetics of Jews with the possible exception of some Kohanim families be any different than anybody else on the planet ?

The Arab/Jewish conflict is not racial or genetic it is a spiritual/religious/cutural conflict.

If you want to understand both sides of the issue then you need to look at it through the lenses of how the two sides see the issue. More relevant is this information from the Palestinian Media... ( sorry for the long quote but this is a politics post :-)

PMW: Islam's Mandatory War Against Jews and Israel in Palestinian Authority religious teaching

Special report # 37

Studies on Palestinian Culture and Society [study #4]:(July 2, 2001)

by Itamar Marcus, Director

Introduction

Throughout history religious wars have been fought in the name of different Gods. The premise and basis for discussion of the Oslo Accords was that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict was not an irreconcilable religious war, but one over borders. However, the Palestinian religious leaders, all appointees of the PA political leadership, are publicly preaching that the Israel-Palestinian conflict is part of Islam's eternal religious war against the Jews.1

Jews are portrayed as the eternal enemies of Allah, and the killing of Jews as Allah's will. On the national level, Allah prohibits acceptance of Israel's existence and will destroy it.

The Palestinians have redefined the conflict from one over borders, in which compromise may be a solution, into a religious war for Allah's in which compromise is heretical. The implications for future peace are ominous.

This report is not brought as a critique of Islam's religious traditions nor does it claim to represent authentic Islam. Rather it demonstrates the way Palestinian Authority religious leaders are selecting, interpreting and teaching Islam. Although Islam has positive references and traditions regarding Jews, the PA religious leaders have chosen to cite only negative references in their religious teaching, using the traditional sources to justify and even to demand uncompromising hatred of Jews and Israel.

The religious ideology of the Palestinian Authority religious leaders as expressed in the Friday sermons and religious lessons can be summarized by eight essential principles, four regarding the Jews, and four regarding Israel:

Jews

1. Jews are the enemy of Allah.

2. Islam is fighting a continuous religious war against the Jews.

..3. The killing of Jews is a religious obligation.

4. Palestinians are the vanguard in this war against the Jews, and all

Islamic nations are obligated to assist in this war.

..Israel

1. All of the land between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea [which includes all of Israel] is a religious Waqf - an Islamic religious trust. Any Muslim who relinquishes any part to Israel is damned to Hell.

..2. All agreements with Israel are inherently temporary in nature and are signed only because of Israel's temporary balance of power advantage.

..3. Allah will replace Muslims who shirk their obligation to battle Israel.

..4. The ultimate destruction of Israel is a certainty.

The Palestinians repeatedly use Islamic sources to defend this religious hatred, even demanding the killing of Jews as a current obligation and the will of Allah. At least four times in recent months Palestinian religious leaders have taught publicly that the following Hadith (Islamic traditions attributed to Mohammed) is an authoritative directive of Islam today, expressing Allah's will that obedient Muslims kill Jews. The Hadith itself states:

"The Day of Resurrection will not arrive until the Muslims make war against the Jews and kill them, and until a Jew hiding behind a rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say: 'Oh Muslim, Oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!'"2

Recently a preacher attacked the Arab-Muslim world leaders because they are avoiding attacking Israel with missiles and tanks, and threatened them that Allah is liable to "replace them with other men... that fight for Allah... to liberate the lands from the defilement of the Jews".3

It is to be stressed that these broadcasts by officially appointed religious leaders, presenting the Palestinian-Israeli conflict as an eternal religious conflict, have been preached long before the current violence began. This preaching it is not a reaction to the present violence, and possibly the opposite is true. The P.A.'s religious world-view, that sees agreements with Israel as inherently temporary and war against the Jews as an expression of Allah's will, has in all likelihood fueled the hatred that has lead to Palestinian terror and violence.

This report presents representative selections from sermons broadcast during recent years:

Part 1. The Eternal Islamic War against the Jews Led by the Palestinians;

the Jews are enemies of Allah

"We the Palestinian nation, our fate from Allah is to be the vanguard in the war against the Jews until the resurrection of the dead, as the prophet Muhammad said: 'The resurrection of the dead will not arrive until you will fight the Jews and kill them... ' We the Palestinians are the vanguard in this undertaking and in this campaign, whether or not we want this..."4

"Blessed is he who fights Jihad in the name of Allah, blessed is he who [goes on] raids in the name of Allah, blessed is he who dons a vest of explosives on himself or on his children and goes in to the depth of the Jews and says: Allahu Akbar, Blessed be Allah. Like the collapse of the building upon the heads of the Jews in their sinful dance-hall, I ask of Allah that we see the Knesset collapsing on the heads of the Jews."5

"The battle with the Jews will surely come... the decisive Muslim victory is coming without a doubt, and the prophet spoke about in more than one Hadith and the Day of resurrection will not come without the victory of the believers [the Muslims] over the descendents of the monkeys and pigs [the Jews] and with their annihilation."6

"The Jews are the Jews. There never was among them a supporter of peace. They are all liars... the true criminals, the Jewish terrorists, that slaughtered our children, that turned our wives into widows and our children into orphans, and desecrated our holy places. They are terrorists. Therefore it is necessary to slaughter them and murder them, according to the words of Allah... it is forbidden to have mercy in your hearts for the Jews in any place and in any land. Make war on them anyplace that you find yourself. Any place that you encounter them - kill them. Kill the Jews and those among the Americans that are like them... The Jews only understand might. Have no mercy on the Jews, murder them everywhere..."7

"...Allah decreed upon us in this lifetime to humiliate the Jews sooner or later..."8

"My dear brothers, so continues the struggle between the Muslims and the Jews from the past, both near and far, in the present and in the future. And in this matter the word of Allah will be fulfilled: (Koran, Sura 5,84)

'There will not be found [anyone] more hostile to the believers than the Jews and the idolaters."9

2. A repeated goal of PA religious teaching is to defame Jews and Jewish tradition:

"...Their Bible [of the Jews] today, has no light and no teachings. Their Bible today, is just a bunch of notes that were written down by people who lie about God, his prophets and his Bible...those who do these kinds of things are the descendants of Abelis, meaning the descendants of the satans...they fabricated a Jewish history book full of promises to Abraham, Issac and Jacob that He will give them the land of Palestine...the entire Bible comes to claim ownership on the land for the Jews."11

3. The Oslo Agreements are Inherently Temporary -Future Generations will Complete the War

"All of the agreements entered into [with Israel] are temporary, until the decree comes from Allah and until the destiny from Allah is realized."19

"...Before long, Palestine will return to the bosom of Islam, we say this with certainty, in accordance with the religious texts... the glorious Islamic nation, to whom is promised victory by Allah..."20

"Who is responsible for the loss of Palestine... and [for] deceitfully labeling it Israel?... The Prophet [Muhammad] soothes us with many Hadiths that Palestine shall return to its former days.... [Later] "We must prepare a foothold, for the coming army of Allah, by divine predetermination. May it be Allah's will, this oppressing state shall pass, Israel shall pass. This oppressing state, America, shall pass, the oppressing state Britain, shall pass, [those] that brought this catastrophe [nakba] of this nation..."21

"How will Palestine return?... Allah will support whom He loves. 'Allah loves whoever battles for him' (Koran, Sura 61,4). Therefore, there is no escape from a Jihad [religious war] for the sake of Allah. As long as this nation shall neglect the commandment of the Jihad, Allah will humiliate her. When will Palestine return? When we impose the law of Allah... Palestine will return when we return to Allah... Palestine will return if we will know who is the enemy and who is the friend, and the games of world Jewry...

3. "Surat al-Jum'a (2)

"...Oh you who are Jews, if you think that you are favored of Allah, to the exclusion of (other) men. Then long for death if you are truthful. But they will never long for it because of the (deeds) their hands have sent before... as for the death from which you flee, that will surely overtake you ..." 30

4. The Destruction of Israel is a Global Islamic Responsibility

"...The Muslims and Arabs must stand behind the Palestinian nation, which is the vanguard in the war against Allah's enemies. By the living Allah, the Jews are Islam's enemies in this life time..."31

"There are Hadiths (Islamic traditions attributed to the prophet Mohammed) regarding our struggle against the Jews. And it is given: "The Day of Resurrection will not arrive until the Muslims make war against the Jews and kill them, and until a Jew hiding behind a rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say: 'Oh Muslim, Oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!'

This Hadith clarifies to us the characteristics of the campaign between us and the Jews. The tree and the rock do not say 'Oh, Palestinian', 'Oh Arab', or 'Oh resident of the Middle East'. Rather they say: 'Oh, Moslem, Servant of Allah'"32

Footnotes:

1 This ideology is preached in sermons and religious lessons that are broadcast every Friday on official Palestinian television and radio, and from the religious lessons appearing in PA newspapers and television.

2 Sheikh Muhammed Abd al Hadi La'afi, Responsible for Religious Teaching and Instruction in the Office of the Wakf in the official P.A. newspaper Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, 18, May 2001 and 27 April 2001, Dr. Muhammed Ibrahim Madi Palestinian Television in the main Friday sermons on 30 March 2001 and 13 April 2001.

3 Dr. Muhammed Ibrahim Madi, Palestinian Television, 30 March 2001.

4 ibid., 28 July 2000

5 Dr. Muhammad Ibrahim Madi, Friday Sermon, Palestinian TV, June 8,

2001

6 Sheikh Muhammed Abd Al Hadi La'afi, Responsible for Religious

Teaching and Instruction in the Office of the Wakf in the official P.A.

newspaper Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, 18, May 2001

7 The preacher Dr. Ahmed Yousuf Abu Halabiah, a member of the Palestinian

Sharianic (Islamic religious law) Rulings Council, and Rector of Advanced

Studies, the Islamic University, Palestinian Television, 13 October 2000

8 Shiekh Yuosouf Abu Sneina, Palestinian Television, 8 September 2000

9 Dr. Muhammed Ibrahim Madi, Palestinian Television., 13 April 2001

10 Palestinian Authority Television Religious Class, 17 December 98,

and 16 February 99.

11 Religion class on Palestinian Television, 3 November 1998

12 Shiekh Yuosouf Abu Sneina, Official Preacher of the Al Aqsa Mosque,

Palestinian Radio , 30 April 1999

13 Shiekh Yuosouf Abu Sneina, Palestinian Television, 8 September 2000

14 Palestinian Television, 11 January 2001.

15 Dr. Ahmed Abu Halabiah, Palestinian Television, 13 October 2000.

16 Shiekh Yuosouf Abu Sneina, Official Preacher of the Al Aqsa Mosque,

Palestinian Television, 8 September 2000

17 Ahmad Abu Halabiya, Palestinian Television, 18 August 2000

18 Dr. Ahmed Yousuf Abu Halabiah, Palestinian Television, 13 April 2001

19 Dr. Muhammed Ibrahim Madi., Palestinian Television, 28 July 2000

20 ibid., 4 May 2001

21 Dr. Muhammad Ibrahim Maadi, Friday Sermon, Palestinian TV, June 8,

2001

22 ibid., 4 May 2001

23 Shiekh Yuosouf Abu Sneina,.Palestinian Television, 8 September 2000

24 Palestinian Television., 1 September 2000

25 Al Hayat-Al Jadida, 24 July 2000

26 Islamic Education, sixth grade, Part A, p. 68 cited in report of Center

for monitoring the Impact of Peace

27 Islamic Education, sixth grade, Part A p. 67-68

28 Reading the Koran, sixth grade, p.78

29 Reading the Koran, sixth grade, p.20

30 Reading the Koran, sixth grade, p.23

31 Dr. Ahmed Yousuf Abu Halabiah, Palestinian Television, 18 August 2000

32 Dr. Muhammed Madi, Palestinian Television, 30 March 2001

33 ibid., 30 March 2001

34 Dr. Ahmed Yousuf Abu Halabiah, Palestinian Television, 11 August 2000

35 Dr. Muhammed Madi, Palestinian Television, 13 April 2001

36 ibid., 13 April 2001

37 ibid., 30 March 2001

38 ibid., 30 March 2001

39 ibid., 11 August 2000

40 Dr. Muhammed Madi, Palestinian Television, 13 April 2001

41 ibid., 30 March 2001

42 ibid., 4 May 2001

PMW Palestinian Media Watch monitors the Palestinian media and issues free reports

PMW is an independent, Jerusalem-based non-profit organization

To receive reports regularly, enroll at [email protected]

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Guest Grayfox

quote:

Hamas doesen't limit itself only to terrorism. They operate and maintain an extensive array of social services, including schools, dispensaries, and even distribute food to the poorest.

wow so that makes it all better then?

theyre like arab versions of robin hood. instead they slaughter israeli civilians at shops and storefronts with suicide bombers... but they rule cause they contribute to their society...

what a load of BS

ill cut the rest... been here too long to get banned over a "quarantined" subject

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quote:

Originally posted by Wolfheart:

quote:

It's been a while since I've read the Bible but I remember a passage where God had commanded the Isralies to destroy the Philistines (from whom the Palestines have decended) along with thier valuables, but in thier infinite wisdom, they decided instead to only conquer and subjugate them and take the spoils of war

I fail to see which part of this makes the land "rightfully theirs" *now*


Sorry, forgot to take your lack of faith into account, the POINT was that if the Isralies would have done what God commanded them to do, instead of doing what THEY wanted to do, then they wouldn't be in this mess right now. As it stands, they both have a claim to the land. If they would have done what God told them to do, they wouldn't have this problem, because there wouldn't be any Palestinians.
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Thought this was a relevant (and not unexpected) development.

http://www.nysun.com/article/18798

Excerpt:

America's newly installed ambassador to the United Nations, John Bolton, labeled "inappropriate and unacceptable" the United Nations Development Program financing of materials bearing the slogan "Today Gaza, Tomorrow the West Bank and Jerusalem."

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Hey Nomad ( good to hear from you & Prez of course... :-)

(1) Doesn't justify or excuse the behavior. According to the Western concept of the nation-state, the exclusive right to the use of military force is reserved for the nation or state. Groups or individuals that act outside of that construct get labeled, militants, criminals, or terrorists. With that definition varying with the goals of that group or individual.

(2)I will *ABSOLUTELY* agree with you that genetics is NO WAY to base claims for territory. In fact it's nonsensical.

(3) Your characterization of Hamas is DEAD ON. Make no mistake that they fit the definition of terrorists and/or they are the "other side" of the Palestinian civil war ( PA vs. Hamas ). What is of vital relevance is that Hamas is a Religiously motivated group that engages in all aspects of Muslim life. Unfortunately for the Israelis that also includes violence.

Safe to say is that enough pals support violence against israel such that terrorists organizations find enough support in the form of political approval, recruits, money, etc. etc. that they can continue their operations. See references to the culture of martyrdom that has developed there.

(4) Demographics is THE bogey man of israeli politics. Check this link and see about the

controversy:

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=83584

Personally I think it is unwise to base policy on what may or may not materialize in the form of demographics in the future. Israel has severe issues that it needs to deal with NOW

(ackshav !). Demographics have always been against the Jews but we survive anyway. If your religious its G-d if not it's "sheer dumb luck"

If the discussion is centering around Israel's "Rights" or "Claims" to the Land of Israel I think people can safely take several justified positions.

1) Biblical, The World is G-d's, He can give or take land from whomever G-d chooses.

if your not of the biblical mindset then

2) Don't need a "Right", The Jews are there , the state is established and they have the guns to keep it that way ( just like the USA )

or

3) The original UN charter giving Jews a homeland to try and recompense for the holocaust

or

4) Historic homeland, that was purchased, fought for, and ultimately settled. The narative similar to that in the book "From Time Immemorial"

or

5) Nations don't have any inherent "Rights" to land, that is a fiction. Whoever has the power gets the land. When a nation becomes weak it is conquered. Period.

6) The Arabs in fighting wars took a gamble and lost. Too bad. We're not giving Austria to Germany anytime soon why should we give Israel or pieces of Israel to violent and hostile Arab nations.

On and on and on.

I like that you brought up some of the other ethnic groups that have a desire for a specific ethnic homeland. The question is why do we focus on the Jews and Israel so much ? Don't the Kurds and others deserve our support, time, and money ? Odd huh?

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Last note,

from Nomads Post ...

A group of die-hard right-wingers, Israelis and American Jews, has tried recently to undermine the debate by suggesting that the Palestinian population numbers are inflated. Based on actual birth and death statistics and some controversial assumptions, they argued that there are only 2.4 million Palestinians -- rather than the Palestinian Authority's 3.8 million figure. Fewer Palestinians means no demographic threat; hence no pressing need to leave the West Bank and Gaza. Their findings, however, were rejected by Della Pergola, and by a team from RAND Corp., which published a blueprint for a Palestinian state.

Sounds like those RAND guys have a CONFLICT OF INTEREST !!!

I think that the demographics suffer the same problem that researching the genetic bassis of homosexuality, evolution, etc. suffer from...

Science is not independent of politics, religion, and ideology.

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quote:

Originally posted by Darkling:

quote:

Originally posted by Wolfheart:

quote:

It's been a while since I've read the Bible but I remember a passage where God had commanded the Isralies to destroy the Philistines (from whom the Palestines have decended) along with thier valuables, but in thier infinite wisdom, they decided instead to only conquer and subjugate them and take the spoils of war

I fail to see which part of this makes the land "rightfully theirs" *now*


Sorry, forgot to take your lack of faith into account, the POINT was that if the Isralies would have done what God commanded them to do, instead of doing what THEY wanted to do, then they wouldn't be in this mess right now. As it stands, they both have a claim to the land. If they would have done what God told them to do, they wouldn't have this problem, because there wouldn't be any Palestinians.
Ok I see..You basically say its their land because some book says God wants so..I think I like remos explanation better(even if I dont agree that think its good a enough reason for the "mess" happening there,which seems to continue for a long time..).Anyway this is a dead end so lets follow the other ongoing discussion(which is more informative and seems to be going somewhere).

BTW is it just me or is there a contradiction in both believing a God that promotes genocide (which includes "innocents") and thinking that terrorism is wrong. (if that passage is from bible)

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quote:

Originally posted by Wolfheart:

BTW is it just me or is there a contradiction in both believing a God that promotes genocide (which includes "innocents") and thinking that terrorism is wrong. (if that passage is from bible)

Again, I could be mistaken on this, but from what I remember, I think the reason God wanted these people wiped out was because they were sacrificing Children to Baal or something like that.

Look either way, going back to the original issue, Biblical claims aside, the Indians have a claim to practially all land in the USA. The Norwegians have a claim to Greenland, Iceland and Canada. The Aztecs have a claim to all of South America and Mexico, the Aboriginals have a claim to all of Australia. Wars have been fought over land since the beginning of time and generally whoever wins KEEPS the land. The Arabs figured that they would band together and wipe Israel from the face of the earth, they tried several times including 1948-49, During the war of Independance, when 6 countries invaded plus the Palestinians locally. End result, Israel siezes more land. They tried again in the 6 day war in 1967. End result, Israel seizes more land. Israel tried to live in peace with these people, but they DIDN'T, then AFTER they lost, they come back crying, hey give us our land back. It's insane. That's like us giving Poland or Austria back to Germany after the end of WWII. You lost SORRY, now STFU and go away.

On a side note though, You could say that God was on Israel's side during the several wars, when they beat the crap out of all their Arab Neighbors and seized additional land, or you could say that they were VERY lucky. Throughout Israel's history they seem to have gotten VERY lucky in wars against much more powerfull enemy's. I guess it's all just dumb luck and God had nothing to do with it right.

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