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quote:

"How do we Americans benefit from all the assistance we are giving Israel? What is Israel doing for us?" I got no reply to the questions.

Wolfheart- Why should Americans expect something in return for supporting another country? The notion that the US should help someone only when there is some means of reciprocation is ludicrous.

The U.S. supports Israel because she is an ally, and rarely forgets to ACT like an ally, unlike some European countries I could name...

We support Taiwan in their bid for independence because they are right and China is wrong. When the Palestinians are not busy either blowing up restaurants in Israel or dancing in the streets celebrating the deaths of innocents, Bush supports their cause, too. He has mentioned his vision for a Palestinian state several times.

It's simple. As long as terrorists are allowed (or encouraged) to act with impunity by them, the Palestinians and their cause are a joke.

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Besides Military Technology and Intelligence...

Science etc.

http://www.israel21c.org/bin/en.jsp?enPage=HomePage

Wolfheart, don't believe all the propaganda. The ISM/PSM crowd will have you believe that the Israeli's are the new Nazis.

As far as the "animals" comments go. We'll there is being an "animal" and acting like an "animal".

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Now this is what is needed NOT trying to kill each other until theres no one left so that you win by default.Its inevitable ,considering the ease of communication today, that eventually people will see each other as humans and politics will HAVE TO follow.This is the exact same thing that will happen in the Turkey-Greece relationship in time.

You cant kill ideas by armies..

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I, like you, believe diplomacy is always preferable to violence, Wolfheart. But how can you negotiate with terrorists?

I'm not saying that all Palestinians are terrorists, mind you - indeed the vast majority are not. Yet they let Hamas and Islamic Jihad do all of their "negotiating" for them through death and terror. Even now, Hamas vows to continue killing innocent Israel's. If they can not rein them in, then Israel will answer in kind; with force. And rightfully so.

I say, kill the terrorists and let the negotiating begin.

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Like in Nazi Germany. Were ALL the Germans Nazis ? No. Were they ALL rounding up the Jews ? No. But the reigning ideology and the people in power had enough control to commit horrific acts, you don't need a majority to do these things.

Same in the PA controlled areas, kill the ideology, make life VERY hard for armed terrorists, and eventually the people will see themselves through to a different path. But seriously this is a war and we are not in the end game yet.

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quote:

Originally posted by Wolfheart:

NOT trying to kill each other until theres no one left so that you win by default.Its inevitable ,considering the ease of communication today, that eventually people will see each other as humans and politics will HAVE TO follow.This is the exact same thing that will happen in the Turkey-Greece relationship in time.

You cant kill ideas by armies..

You're dreaming...LOL

and the Turkey Greece thing, that is a total PIPE dream.

I've lived in Turkey, the animosity between those countries is totally out of control, and always will be.

It's just the way it is.

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Hmmm, this is promising (sarcasm). In today's NY Sunday Times, there is a picture on the front page captioned "a rally by members of the military wing of Hamas yesterday celebrated the israeli pull out from Gaza." Strange thing is that there are about four of them in the picture and they still have on the trade-mark black hood of terrorists. I have a bad feeling Israel made a big mistake. Like the old saying, "give them an inch and they will want a yard next". I don't think the pull out is going to be the end of hostilities. Mostly on Hamas's part because they will want more.

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quote:

You're dreaming...LOL

and the Turkey Greece thing, that is a total PIPE dream.

I've lived in Turkey, the animosity between those countries is totally out of control, and always will be.

It's just the way it is.


Its just "the way it is" for people who refuse to think on the subject.Those who cannot see the dynamics tend to explain things using statics..

The animosity is out of control because *each* side refuses to see each other,Turks have a imaginary greek character and so does the greeks.They are fighting(and hating) those characters NOT each other.When looked from outside things may seem the same but there ARE changes,today I can talk about things about greece in public that I couldnt 10 years before.Theres internet,movies,books,phones,TV;with these and more nationalists can only hide the real greece for so long.

quote:

But seriously this is a war and we are not in the end game yet.


I didnt say we are..

quote:

I, like you, believe diplomacy is always preferable to violence, Wolfheart. But how can you negotiate with terrorists?

I'm not saying that all Palestinians are terrorists, mind you - indeed the vast majority are not. Yet they let Hamas and Islamic Jihad do all of their "negotiating" for them through death and terror. Even now, Hamas vows to continue killing innocent Israel's. If they can not rein them in, then Israel will answer in kind; with force. And rightfully so.

I say, kill the terrorists and let the negotiating begin.


Terrorism..You know whatever you think try to see events through BOTH sides eyes before drawing conclusions..

Is ÔÇÿTerrorismÔÇÖ Being Defined by the ÔÇÿTerrorists?ÔÇÖ

excerpt:

"LetÔÇÖs return to last weekÔÇÖs comment from the college professor who said, ÔÇ£Whoever defines the situation controls itÔÇØ. Netanyahu and his Israeli and pro-Israeli friends have been controlling the Western response to ÔÇ£terrorismÔÇÖÔÇØ for a long time."

Human Price of the Israeli Occupation of Palestine

excerpt:"

The PNIC report mentioned that the number of killed children aged less than 18 years reached 742. 261 females, 344 security members and 817 students and teachers were also killed during the years of the Intifada."

"As for the killed in extrajudicial executions perpetrated by Israeli undercover units and warplanes, the number had risen to 324, as that of those died due to delays at checkpoints mounted to 130 men, women, children and elderly."

"The Israeli occupation troop violations against the journalists reached 724 attacks, as the shelling of residential buildings has been 31473 times since October 10, 2001until October 31, 2004, the PNIC made clear."

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quote:

Originally posted by Wolfheart:

quote:


Thats a classic,nothing out of ordinary.Each side thinks they are the good guys and that god protects them etc. Im sure Arabs have such stories too.

And werent you saying that killing innocents is wrong regardless of the reasons,now you are telling me that its(the one that god ordered) justified


I didn't say that, I said that God wanted these people destroyed because they were sacrificing thier children to a false God. What about that is innocent?

On a Side note:

Skid and Nomad, I would REALLY apprciate it if you guys simply include links to your references instead of posting 3 and 4 page articles that you cut out from somewhere else directly on the boards. It makes for EXTREMELY tedious reading and is difficult to tell where the article ends and your opinion begins. One of the things that I like about Forums is that it's a place where people exchange personal ideas and thoughts, not a place where you simply copy someone elses thoughts and paste them in between a couple of lines of your own. Thanks In advance.

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quote:

Originally posted by Wolfheart:

quote:

There is NOTHING illegal about Israel's presence, as it was done to debilitate the enemies' ability to launch further attacks

We totally agree here,they have the right to go beyond their borders to prevent terror attacks until the attacks stop BUT they dont have the right to use terror attacks as an excuse to claim land to fulfill a dream of theirs(which seems to have existed *before* any terror attack happened).

Yes,you have the right to kill or capture a thief(to be sent to prison) that has broken into your house,you have the right to go and capture the thief in HIS house if neccesary BUT you dont have the right to use this as an excuse to *settle* in HIS house(in which not only the thief lives) that you wanted to have *before* the theft happened.Laws dont (and shouldnt) care that some book of yours says the house is yours.

quote:

Here is the reason the Palestinian 'cause' cannot be taken seriously.

I dont agree.Being wrong in one aspect doesnt automagically mean you're wrong in ALL aspects.Just like being under attack of terrorists doesnt automagically mean you have the right to do anything.


Problem is, who is it that they were taking land from? What historical evidence could you give me that the Palestinians even owned this land. Keep in mind that one of the disputed areas is called Judea, Jews are called Jews because they were from Judea. Keep in mind that the Jews were driven away from this land by the Roman Empire and the Palestinians settled there both during the rule of the Romans and later during the Rule of the Byzantine Empire. Later when the Ottoman Empire liberated the area from the Byzantines, the Muslims built thier temple in Jerusalem, even though their own Quoran states that this land was given to Israel by God. And YES this is important because EVERYTHING that they did, was supposedly by the Quoran. Afterwards this area was conquered by the British and the British, along with the UN gave the area back to the Isralies and Palestinians. However, the day that the British left, the Palestinians attacked the Isralies to kick them out of the land, and instead the reverse happened. So who is wrong here? I think it's interesting to note though, that the Palestinians have never actually even ruled over the land. They were just people who were there during the Roman, Byzantine and Ottoman Empires. Maybe we should just give the whole thing to Turkey (the last of the Ottoman Empire)
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quote:

Problem is, who is it that they were taking land from? What historical evidence could you give me that the Palestinians even owned this land. Keep in mind that one of the disputed areas is called Judea, Jews are called Jews because they were from Judea. Keep in mind that the Jews were driven away from this land by the Roman Empire and the Palestinians settled there both during the rule of the Romans and later during the Rule of the Byzantine Empire

Answer to:Palestinians never had either a country, nor any distinct culture or language of their own

ex:

"The right which the Arabs in Palestine have is one due to the inhabitants of any country . . . because they live here, and not because they are Arabs . . . The Arab inhabitants of Palestine should enjoy all the rights of citizens and all political rights, not only as individuals, but as a national community, just like the Jews."

"It is not fair nor just to suppress the political, economic, and civil rights of others just because they never had a state, distinct language, and distinct culture in their history."

Its worth reading Darkling(even if just to better understand them).I know they arent historical evidence,but Nomad already answered this on first page..And you or Jaguar havent shown any historic evidence about your claims..

Here are some more interesting reads:

Answer to:Most Palestinians want to destroy Israel and deep in their hearts they want to drive all Israeli Jews into the sea.....

Answer to:The Arabs rejected the 1947 U.N. partition of Palestine, and consequently attacked the Jewish state, and lost the 1948 war......

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quote:

Originally posted by Wolfheart:

And you or Jaguar havent shown any historic evidence about your claims..

These are things that I learned in School, open any history book? You know, it's pretty funny, the other day my Son was asking me why he needed to learn "all this stuff that some dead guys did" and this is a perfect example. If you don't know the history of the area, then why are you posting on this subject?

quote:

Originally posted by Wolfheart:

Here are some more interesting reads:


You've GOT to be kidding me right? These are your sources?

quote:

Originally posted by Al-Nakba Website reffered to by Wolfheart:

- Are you aware that the Zionist leaders have enjoyed a clandestine advantage by BUGGING the rooms of the UN Special Committee On Palestine (UNSCOP) and knew what every committee member and witness was saying?

Yes I'm sure that this is why this happened. Because the Isralies were "Bugging" the UN Assembly, I mean come on, next you'll be telling me that Jerusalem wasn't built by Isralies and that the Nazi's really didn't kill 6 Million Jews. I'm sure that if Hitler had access to a Website he would be posting all his rhetoric on why the "Arian" Nation was superior to the rest of us and why the "Blacks" are an inferior race to everyone. Just like the disinformation your Terrorists friends at Al-Nakba are trying to feed to us now. Unlike the claims on that website, Isralie "Gangs" weren't tryint to kill and dispossess the Palestinians, even before the Isralie state came into being, it was actually the other way around!

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Hamas: "we will abide by the cease fire until it expires in January." Hamas is also claiming victory over the gaza pull out.

Sharon says this is the only land they are giving back.

Anyone else see where this is going to go? Hamas will want the rest of what they claim is theirs. I can almost guarantee hamas will start in again to gain the other pieces of land in question.

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Hey,

The above websites in Wolfheart's posting are pure propaganda (Not Wolfheart's fault, just those sites, along with MANY others are designed for this reason). Recommendation is to read only Arabic websites. If you can't read Arabic then do what I do and get your info off of http://www.memri.org

For a theoretical treatment of the strategies being employed you need to understand the PLO/Arafat's "strategy of parts". Also, the war is being waged on the information front as well as the borders of Israel.

I *HIGHLY* recommend that people return to original source material for their reading.

Here is an example which destroys the version of events given in the above quoted websites:

---

"Every effort is being made by the Jews to persuade the Arab populace to stay and carry on with their normal lives, to get their shops and businesses open and to be assured that their lives and interests will be safe." -- Haifa District HQ of the British Police, April 26, 1948, (quoted in Battleground by Samuel Katz).

---

This is from:

1) A source given AT THE TIME OF THE EVENTS

2) A 3rd Party ( The Brits, who didn't love the Jews by any means )(more credible)

3) A source at the location of the events

Any narrative or history of the events at that time are going to have show that the British were either lying or the Mr. Katz fabricated this quote. What is more important is that this quote is actually backed up by other sources.

Ex:

"The mass evacuation, prompted partly by fear, partly by order of Arab leaders, left the Arab quarter of Haifa a ghost city.... By withdrawing Arab workers their leaders hoped to paralyze Haifa." -- Time Magazine, May 3, 1948, page 25

OR

"The Arab civilians panicked and fled ignominiously. Villages were frequently abandoned before they were threatened by the progress of war." -- General John Glubb "Pasha," The London Daily Mail, August 12, 1948

OR

ÔÇ£It must not be forgotten that the Arab Higher Committee encouraged the refugeesÔÇÖ flight from their homes in Jaffa, Haifa, and JerusalemÔÇØ. -- Near East Arabic Broadcasting Station, Cyprus, 4.3.49

OR by the Arabs themselves:

"The Arab states which had encouraged the Palestine Arabs to leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab invasion armies, have failed to keep their promise to help these refugees." ÔÇô The Jordanian daily newspaper Falastin, Feb. 19, 1949.

"The Secretary General of the Arab League, Azzam Pasha, assured the Arab peoples that the occupation of Palestine and of Tel Aviv would be as simple as a military promenade...Brotherly advice was given to the Arabs of Palestine to leave their land, homes, and property to stay temporarily In neighboring fraternal states, lest the guns of invading Arab armies mow them down." --Al Hoda (a New York-based Lebanese daily) June 8, 1951.

"Who brought the Palestinians to Lebanon as refugees, suffering now from the malign attitude of newspapers and communal leaders, who have neither honor nor conscience? Who brought them over in dire straits and penniless, after they lost their honor? The Arab states, and Lebanon amongst them, did it." -- The Beirut Muslim weekly Kul-Shay, Aug. 19, 1951.

"We will smash the country with our guns and obliterate every place the Jews seek shelter in. The Arabs should conduct their wives and children to safe areas until the fighting has died down." -- Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri Said, quoted in ÔÇ£Sir An-NakbahÔÇØ (The Secret Behind the Disaster) by Nimr el-Hawari, Nazareth, 1952

"The Arab Exodus was not caused by the actual battle, but by the exaggerated description spread by the Arab leaders to incite them to fight the Jews. For the flight and fall of the other villages it is our leaders who are responsible because of their dissemination of rumors exaggerating Jewish crimes and describing them as atrocities in order to inflame the Arabs ... By spreading rumors of Jewish atrocities, killings of women and children etc., they instilled fear and terror in the hearts of the Arabs in Palestine, until they fled leaving their homes and properties to the enemy."  The Jordanian daily newspaper Al Urdun, April 9, 1953.

"The Arab governments told us: Get out so that we can get in. So we got out, but they did not get in." (Quoting a refugee) -- Al Difaa (Jordan) Sept. 6, 1954.

------------------------------------------------

In other words, change the narrative, change the history, and you can change the future.

------------------------------------------------

From the Israeli Side ( IF YOU TRUST WIKIPEDIA )

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/David_Ben-Gurion

------------------------------------------------

Has Israel's narrative changed ? When you do a critical analysis of the facts surrounding the creation of Israel by the British and then the U.N., do you find consistency in Israel's position or do you see an invention of facts ?

My favorite is the convient forgetting about the Arab-Jews who lost their homes, posessions, and sometimes lives to Arab riots in revenge for 1948. Now some Arab websites blame "Zionist Conspirators", what is scary is not the blood libel but the fact that you can actually see the documented evidence ON VIDEO that it was the Arab countries who expelled their Jewish populations.

Exactly what they accuse Israel of doing to them !!!

http://info.jpost.com/C003/Supplements/Refugees/12-13.html

http://www.pierrerehov.com/exodus.htm

Take Care,

sckid

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quote:

These are things that I learned in School, open any history book? You know, it's pretty funny, the other day my Son was asking me why he needed to learn "all this stuff that some dead guys did" and this is a perfect example. If you don't know the history of the area, then why are you posting on this subject?


Interesting,None of the history books I have read ever mentioned that "Palestine as a political structure has NEVER existed, palestinians as a people NEVER existed either, they were actually JEWS, and they were called that as a putdown.".It may be true or not but its obvious that theres not consensus about this..And it may be told that way to you in school but that doesnt mean anything to me..

quote:

You've GOT to be kidding me right? These are your sources?


Did I say they are??I just said they were an interesting reading about this issue from Arab side..Obviously you missed that part..

quote:

Just like the disinformation your Terrorists friends at Al-Nakba are trying to feed to us now.

My terrorist friends eh?LOL

Anyway my point wasnt about justifying palestines assaults to civilians,or something like that..I was simply trying to express my *initial* thoughts about this issue which are best summed up like this:

"One of the Israeli participants summed up my feelings when he said, "Guys, can't we just agree that the situation sucks for both sides and move on?"

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http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?...&sn=001&sc=1000

So, Israeli leave Gaza, and what happens? Now they scream how bad life is.

While Israelis "occupied" Gaza, they provided Paliestinians with FREE ELECTRICITY AND WATER.

"It was enough, Abumansi said, to pay for food the family bought to supplement the U.N. food distributions every two months. And while it was not enough to pay the bills for water and electricity -- provided by Israel -- so many Gaza residents were in the same position that their power never shut off.

"They would have to shut down all of Gaza," he said."

---Interesting how Africa is in the same spot, AFTER the British businesses pulled out because African leaders kept yelling "Get out from where you don't belong" <---sounds familiar?, has been and STILL is for YEARS.

"A lot of people are responsible for his dilemma, Abumansi said. There is the Palestinian Authority, which he feels has done too little to help the people of Gaza. The closest they came so to helping him directly, he said, was when they gave out 100-shekel notes to voters on election day."

---What a fair election that must be. Now remind me who has the money? Isn't it the same people who build hospitals and schools? Isn't their name Hamas? Aren't they a terrorist organization? So Whoever hands out the money, gets the votes. Wow, I guess terrorists ARE running Palestine.

"Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas has promised large-scale development in the wake of Israel's disengagement and has said he looks forward to the day when no Palestinian will work outside of Palestinian land. ABUMANSI SNORTS AT THE IDEA OF AN ECONOMIC DIVORCE FROM THE JEWISH STATE. "

---I bet Israel is looking for that very same day. But at least SOME Palestinians know the reality of things, like this Abumansi guy. He knows that when Palestine develops Gaza, is the day when Africa won't need aid, and pigs will grow wings.

"Give me a job, and I will talk like them," he said, sarcasm in his voice. "

""If Israel opens its doors for the workers, no suicide bombers will come through, but if it keeps it closed, then operations will happen," he said.

---Now that statement is an oxymoron. If Israel opens the borders then no suicide bombers will come through? Hmm. I guess that would be just like this....

"On June 19, a 21-year-old Palestinian woman was caught at the Erez crossing wearing explosives under her clothing. Investigators said she planned to detonate herself inside a Beersheba hospital. Israeli officials closed the crossing immediately -- and it has remained closed ever since. "

---Wonder why it has remained CLOSED. Didn't she try to go through EXACTLY BECAUSE THE BORDER WAS OPEN? Maybe they should re-open it, so that NO TERRORIST WILL GO THROUGH, AGAIN.

""I just want to work. Let them open the doors for us, and thousands will go there and work," he said. "I'm ready to stand in line at 10 o'clock in the morning."

---How many Israeli workers would need those thousands of job then?

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Oh yeah they threat palestinians really well why are they complaining

Death in a Cemetery,Birzeit university

The Effects of IsraelÔÇÖs Operation Defensive Shield on Palestinian Children Living in the West Bank,Birzeit university

excerpt:

"On 23 April,[3] Ameen Ziad Thawabte, 14, from the village of Beit Fajjar near Hebron, was returning from school with a small group of children his age at approximately 1:00 p.m. An Israeli jeep passed nearby and fired a single shot that killed Ameen. There were no clashes or confrontations with soldiers in the area at the time and there was no curfew on the village. The Israeli army claimed that the children were close to a settlement. However, the nearest settlement, Mijdal Oz, is located three kilometers from the place where Ameen was shot.

The Israeli occupation force regularly left mines in commonly used Palestinian areas before their withdrawal and 11 children were affected, seven of them have died. On 23 April, Asad Orsan lost four limbs, Saed al-Wahshi, 12, suffered severe burns and shrapnel over his entire body, and on 17 May, Ameer Nashrati, 12, was injured while playing in the rubble.

"

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My points still stand.

---Israel provided them with FREE water and electricity.

---Israel provided them with jobs to pay for their food and living expenses.

---Israel closed the border where terrorists are caught, while Palestinians say that if they open the border, no terrorists will cross.

---Israel pulls out, leaves the land to Palestine to do what they want, Palestine starts complaining that now there's no jobs. Blaming Israel, ANOTHER COUNTRY, because now there's no jobs available for THEM. That's like US closing down the border with Mexico and Mexicans complaining that the they can't support their families and it's US fault, NOT THEIR MEXICAN GOVERMNETS. In that case I blame French for high inflation, low wages, and that storm recking havoc in Florida, it's their fault for not protecting world economy, giving all people fair wage so that they can live however comfortably they want, and not dissipating that storm over Florida, I don't care how they do it, but they HAVE TO. Just like Palestinians don't care how Israel should protect itself against terrorists as long as they themselfs get their paychecks and just like Mexicans don't care if it's illegal to cross the border into another country without permission, as long as they get to.

Those points are ALL valid. And like it's been said before, give them an inch they will want a yeard. They wanted Israel to leave, they did. Not they $#@%itch that Israel is not PROVIDING for them after leaving. Here's a CLUE, IT'S YOUR LAND NOW, EITHER OPEN UP YOUR OWN BUSINESSES, FARM YOUR OWN LAND, PROVIDE FOR YOURSELF, OR BE A SOCIALIST AND DEMAND THOSE THINGS FROM YOUR PALESTINIAN GOVERNMENT. You can't blaim Israel anymore, BUZZ OFF.

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Samia Halileh

Institute of Community and Public Health

Birzeit University, Ramallah, West Bank

29/6/2002

Nice Report.

Somehow I am not convinced of the credibility of the academic work coming from a university in Ramallah. (see below for a little Birzeit Rhetoric, considering they are supporters of suicide bombers). Way too much propaganda coming out of those places to even merit reading let alone believing. Of course the Nazi universities had many studies backing up their theories of eugenics so ....

--------

All we ever see from the palestinian media and universities is their never ending "victimhood". Not only is their media and academic institutions rife with propaganda, outright lies, and libel but there is never any responsibility taken for their own actions and situation. What happened to the BILLIONS of dollars given by Israel and the world to the PA/PLO ? What was done with that money ?

If the palestinians are so desperate then where is their mass peaceful demonstrations against terror ? Where is their tireless effort to remove corruption from the PA ? Where is their rejection of violence and exremism ? Where is their negotiation and compromise with Israel ?

Sorry but the victim card doesn't play here. There are too many victims laying in blue and white flags 6ft under to claim any special victim status for the pals.

Your wife may have the right to decry "Israeli Hypocracy" but that doesn't mean her complaints have any merit. Let's see her argue that Israel has a right to exist at a conference in Saudi Arabia. Oh, wait she can't goto to saudi arabia, and even if she could she couldn't drive herself to the conference. Makes you wonder...

--------

Dr. Hanna Nasir (Birzeit University)

Address of Dr. Hanna Nasir, Birzeit University president, at the rally that took place on Monday March 12, 2001

...

Posted: March 12th, 2001

http://www.birzeit.edu/news/2001/drnasir.html

My dear friends,

On behalf of BZU, and in honor of the martyrs of the Palestine struggle - those who died on the road towards independence since the conflict began back more than seventy years ago, I salute you for your solidarity with the University, with the population of the villages around Ramallah and al Bireh and for your solidarity with both Ramallah and Bireh that are themselves besieged.

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quote:

But I forgot, I am probably loosing my time,...

Nomad: The term is "wasting my time". I'm not trying to mock you - you write excellently in English considering it's not your first language.

quote:

4) For the palestinians, the situation is different. Every time a few palestinians terrorists attack israelis, the IDF retaliates either by not so precise "selective asassinations" or by destroying entire neighborhoods, industrial complexes or facilities (like the airport entirely paid by the EU). And there is still people wondering why Palestinians hate Israel or why their services are deficient ?

Well then the message to Palestinians should be rather clear - turn over or kill the murderers your harboring or the attacks will continue. Simple, right?

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quote:

Originally posted by nomad:

Prez:

Thx for the semantic help, I always appreciate it, sincerely.

quote:

Well then the message to Palestinians should be rather clear - turn over or kill the murderers your harboring or the attacks will continue. Simple, right?

Yes, simple. Would you accept the same methodology in handling poor US neighborhoods plagued by crime, drug traffic and gang wars ? After all, in these places the local residents also know approximatively who does what... No ? Why ? Either you consider that collective punishment is not legal (what the majority of countries have agreed and specifically signed international treaties banning it, USA included), either you consider that it is sound and you apply it everywhere. Now saying that this isn't thinkable here, but is acceptable there, is the way open to any kind of abuse. I hope you are aware of this...


I guess you don't know that in US you can go to prison for knowing of the murderer and where he is, yet not turning him inn while he keeps commiting murders.
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We are forgetting that Israel is at WAR.

Collective punishment is illegal in the USA with regards to punishing criminals who are given a trial in the legal system. Israel is fighting a war against a foreign power that wants it's ultimate demise. In war civilians are killed and it is a tragedy, this is why you do not want to fight or perpetuate wars. But this one started a long time ago, and hobbling Israel's defense forces will do nothing but prolong the war.

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Measures taken by a state to protect the lives of it's citizens from a violent and hostile threat are legal under international law.

UN Charter Article 51

That means establishing defensive measures and includes taking offensive measures.

Classic line:

"The world always tells israel what it can't do against terrorism, why doesn' the world tell us what israel CAN do against terrorism."

Checkpoints are a defensive measure and are not a "punishment". You go through a checkpoint at an airport, is that a punishment ? Before the intifada in the 1990s, no checkpoints.

Terror -> Checkpoints

Defensive Wall. Israel has every right to that measure. Is it a punishment ? Obviously not. Before the Intifada 2, no wall.

Terror -> Wall

Israeli raids on PA occupied cities, operations to capture terrorists and if necessary to kill them. What do you expect ? What would any rational country do that has been continously attacked in this way since it's inception ?

Terror -> Raids

Do civilians get killed, yes. The IDF does an admiral job of minimizing civilian casualities in doing the best job it can in complying with the geneva accords.

What does the PA/Fateh/Hamas/Islamic Jihad/Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade/Hizbollah/Tanzim and all the other para-military organizations do ? What is their responsiblity to the civilians in Israel and the PA occupied territories ?

Or is it a double standard ? Pals. can do anything they want and only Israel is up for criticism ?

Palestinian civilian casualties are a CONSEQUENCE of the actions taken by the Palestinian government and para-military terrorist organizations.

---

You seem to like quotations from international law and treaties. Ok lets play...

Occupied Territory : http://www.jcpa.org/brief/brief005-3.htm

Settlement:

The Mandate for Palestine, League of Nations, July 24th, 1922 see preamble and article 6

UN General Assembly Resolution 181, 1947

Chapter 2 Part 8, Chapter 3 Part 1

1967, the UN passed resolution 242, calling for secure and recognized boundaries and for the end of all threats of violence to all countries in the region.

Palestinian National Charter of 1968

Article 9:

Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine.

Article 10:

Commando action constitutes the nucleus of the Palestinian popular liberation war.

Article 19:

The partition of Palestine in 1947 and the establishment of the state of Israel are entirely illegal.

Article 20:

Claims of historical or religious ties of Jews with Palestine are incompatible with the facts of history.

When Israel offered to withdraw from 95% of the West Bank in the Taba Conference of 2001 the Pals. said another famous "No". The response was Intifada 2.

Last but not least

UN Resolution 1373

"Refrain from providing any support, active or passive, to entities or persons involved in terrorist acts

I have about 6 more UN resolutions that you might be interested in reading.

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Considering the world has not bothered to step in and curb PA terror nor stop the flow of money into the PA through UNWRA or other donation agencies. Then the world approves of the PA and Arab worlds ethnic cleansing of the Jewish minority from the Middle-East.

The question is Nomad, which side are you on ?

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