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Alternate interpretation of Lucifer in Christianity.


v01i0
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ÔÇÿLuciferÔÇÖ is a Latin word meaning ÔÇÿLightbringerÔÇÖ or ÔÇÿLightbearerÔÇÖ(lux ÔÇô light, genitive lucis and ferre ÔÇô to bear). It is widely interpret to mean ÔÇÿMorningstarÔÇÖ, referring to planet Venus, which again refers to the woman. Furthermore, Woman and Lucifer are connected in Bible from the beginning; it was woman who ate the fruit from the tree of knowledge. It has also been claimed that Venus, when it moves through vault of heaven, draws kind of a pentagram. Therefore there certainly seems to be enough reason to claim that ÔÇÿLuciferÔÇÖ in Christian Bible is referring to Venus.

But ÔÇÿLightbearerÔÇÖ could also mean Sun, if IÔÇÖm not mistaken. Throughout history there have been religions worshipping Sun. Those religions, off course, were rivals for Christianity(and for Jewishness) and it mightÔÇÖve been difficult for their priests to convince people to believe otherwise, considering how much life-birthing power Sun has. Therefore worshipping Sun mightÔÇÖve been considered same as worshipping Satan. Sun was demonized, just as Venus, ÔÇÿthe GoddessÔÇÖ, was.

One might assume, that priests who were converting pagans into the Christians, mightÔÇÖve interpret ÔÇÿLuciferÔÇÖ according to their own need. Whether the pagan was worshipping ÔÇÿthe GoddessÔÇÖ or the Sun, priest couldÔÇÖve found interpretation of his need. By naming evil as ÔÇÿLuciferÔÇÖ, this religion killed two flies with one slash.

The fact that ÔÇÿLuciferÔÇÖ in Christianity is often thought as a male(with some animal-like features) , seems to support a view that it is referring to the Sun rather than Venus. After all, it was woman who ate the fruit of knowledge, when she was convinced by Satan to do so. Furthermore, Satan is often referred as 'the god of this world'. It might not be very far fetched to claim that this could mean Sun, since it gives us warmth, light and energy. It is the very foundation of life itself.

But wouldn't it be a bit strange to claim that sun would be evil?

-v

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So, tell me about the pertinence of those ancient religious texts. There is no place for truth where religion & politics mix. This counts for Islamism, as well as Judaism and Christianism.


Indeed, most of those politicians that claim to be believers are just using religion as a ride into the political power. But usage of religion is meant not only to gain voters, but it is also to control them.

But that interpretation above is based on thinking that Christian's, just like many other believers, should avoid too much knowledge. Ignorance is a blessing, when it comes to the controlling people. Many so called wiches in history were burned because they sought knowledge; snake persuaded Eve to eat from the tree of knowledge, which she did.

Yeah, those politicians that insists keeping politics and religions apart, are quite right. Although it is very hard to do so, since people mind's are full of symbolic meanings of different religous propaganda.

-v

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Lucifer is a latin translation of the original Hebrew phrase which meant morning star, so there's no great controversy there, and so it can't mean the sun in this context. It only appears once in this form in the entire Old Testament, furthermore in a poetic context describing the glory of the King of Babylon, so drawing detailed theological meanings from here is not exactly secure territory.

The title 'morning star' is used figuratively three times in the new testament, once very clearly as a title of Jesus (Revelation 22:16), so someone being called lucifer would not really be a problem, and besides, having an inappropriate name is not really a barrier to service in the church. (Sorry, no Damians allowed, get out!)

The Morning star as Venus is the brightest star apart from the sun in the sky, and was used figuratively of someone to mean that their glory was very great (or unmatched), certainly true of the King of Babylon at the time.

As for Venus representing the woman, where do you get that from, apart from Roman pagan mythology?

Doesn't that whole 'the sun is evil' conclusion seem a teensy bit tenuous, given that the sun, moon and stars are never described as having divine power (or even of being alive, except in figurative poetic contexts) in the bible, merely as the main light giver of the daytime sky, and as markers of the seasons and days:

e.g. Genesis 1:14

And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, 15and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. 16God made two great lights--the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, 18to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19And there was evening, and there was morning--the fourth day.

It is poor scholarly practise to focus on one unclear figurative passage or phrase and build up a huge theory that is contradicted by clear passages. It is better to examine the clear passages for patterns and then see if the unclear ones can be made sense of in that context. Fair?

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As for Venus representing the woman, where do you get that from, apart from Roman pagan mythology?

Doesn't that whole 'the sun is evil' conclusion seem a teensy bit tenuous, given that the sun, moon and stars are never described as having divine power (or even of being alive, except in figurative poetic contexts) in the bible, merely as the main light giver of the daytime sky, and as markers of the seasons and days:


Definately Bible defines sun and stars as mentioned, but then again it might be part of purpose, which is to rid of the divinity from them.

But your first question is much more difficult to answer Now, where did I get that Venus = woman impression. I didn't even remember whole roman mytology! It must be those categories that have built up within my mixed up brain.

Now, following is just wild speculation, I know there are many people waiting to punch me some, so now there's a chance for it

Anyway, I've been having this wild thought that Venus could actually be mother of all life in Earth. If we just assume, that sun haven't always been that hot. As we know, those events, like star that is forming up, doesen't happen very fast.. Then there might've been a chance, that Venus was first planet that beared life.. Or maybe even mercury. Let's imagine for a moment that life was born on Venus.. For sometime it was all good, but soon atmosphere on Venus started to heat up. Material on Venus started to turn into gasses and some of it left atmosphere and stormy solar winds cast it upon earth.. And life took a lift?

I don't claim that I know a shit about birth of our system, and thats propably the reason that I can imagine such nonesense.

-v

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Not if you have some strong data to back up those strong statements.

I was in fact only responding to the topic of the thread as described in its title. The 'poor scholarship' remark was directed towards the methodology used to obtain 'The sun is evil' conclusion in Voli0's opening post. The sun/stars/physical objects were not condemned as 'evil' in of themselves, but the act of worshipping them was, since they were inappropriate objects of worship. Does that make sense?

While topics like

parallels/anti-parallels between Egyptian and Jewish beliefs,

Jewish attitudes towards Egyptian culture,

religious borrowing between the various pagan religions in the ancient near East,

the direction of development/degradation/enforcement between polytheism and monotheism,

the modern relevance/truth claims of Islam, Judaism and Christianity and their ancient texts,

the honesty/dangers/benefits of mixing politics and religion,

the Zohar versus the Torah/Talmud/rabbinic traditions,

and the origins of the nation of Israel

are all very interesting no doubt, somehow I don't think they are all necessary when discussing the meaning of the word 'Lucifer' in the Bible and Christianity.

Or am I oversimplifying the issue?

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While topics like... are all very interesting no doubt, somehow I don't think they are all necessary when discussing the meaning of the word 'Lucifer' in the Bible and Christianity.


I think it is necessary to view the matter from multiple angles. After all I am speculating with very old and complex history of religion, where speaking in allegoric emblems is more often rule than exception. I think that this allegoric speaking is one of the reasons that there are so many interpretations of Bible.

-v

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nomad, viewing this matter in historic sense is just as important as viewing it in symbolic sense. Anyway, personally I'm pretty poor in history as I've never counted it objective. Archeological foundings can be refered in certain sense, just like statistics, as we've seen in previous conversations, that we've been both part on these forums I've referred it before as 'his story', always written by winners.

quote:

By nomad:

In my personal case, I see as much a divine hand behind the Bible (or any religious text for that matter) as in the user manual of my lawn mover. I prefer the Zohar for a very subjective reason: I find it eminently more romantic than the Old Testament.

We should not forget that these texts appeared at a precise epoch, in a precise context and with a precise scope.


This book Zohar, which you mention, is not familiar for me. I'd appreciate if you could give a short introduction to it for me and others

By the way, I've found the Sumerian epoch 'Gilgames' very interesting. They mention these masters that are able to fly. Furthermore it mentions that those master's habitant is visible in the sky. It is said that Sumerian knowledge in astrology were suporior on it's time.

-v

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