Starforce

[LostInSpace]

I'm going to revive this old debate. I do have an issue with it. As you all know, I upgraded my computer back in January. The Arock PCI-E/AGP with an Amd 3700+ 64bit with a 250gig maxtor Sata drive. Everything was fresh on the hard drive such as the OS install. SC, this motherboard and the entire system is kicking butt just thought I let you know. However, I had to do a reinstall of the OS about a week ago, the reason why I haven't been around here lately. Spent the time reinstalling the software. I didn't put any games back on yet. wasn't the fault of the hardware, I did something that messed up the windows install.

One thing that was happening was that DVD burns were taking about 45min or more each to burn a 4gig disk. It should only have taken about 10 minutes. This all started happening when I installed a game with Starforce. Silent Hunter 3 to be exact. I did that little trick of disabling the two resident programs with no results. Now, since the refreshed OS install and no game has been installed with starforce, the burns are back up to speed. I just did a 3 disk 4gig each backup the other day and each took about 6+ minutes. I really thought my DVD burner was crapping out but I had just bought that back in november so it shouldn't be dying just yet unless it was manufacturing issue cropping up later in it's life.

Is it my immagination or is it the starforce? I'm almost too affraid to install Silent Hunter 3 again to see if it is because I don't want to have to do another OS install to get rid of it.

[Soback]

People blame this on Starforce all the time. In fact, Windows XP does this. Whenever there's an error in cd writing/reading, the speed is downgraded by windows, so for example 48x goes to 24x, if the error persists it goes to 12x, and so forth.

I think there's a way to reset the speed in the bios.

Anyhow. Search for starforce threads from last year. SC explained it in one of those threads.

[Soback]

http://www.3000ad.com/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cg...c;f=37;t=000758

http://forums.avault.com/cgi-bin/ultimateb...f=3;t=008079;p=

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060131-6084.html

[LostInSpace]

quote:

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Originally posted by Soback:

People blame this on Starforce all the time. In fact, Windows XP does this. Whenever there's an error in cd writing/reading, the speed is downgraded by windows, so for example 48x goes to 24x, if the error persists it goes to 12x, and so forth.

I think there's a way to reset the speed in the bios.

Anyhow. Search for starforce threads from last year. SC explained it in one of those threads.

---

Yeah, I tried not to blame it on Starforce. However, it just seems funny that after I installed a starforce laden game, it did what it did. Usually, I never have any complaints about software stuff. I usually find ways to fix issues but this one had me stumped. Also, the only burning program I use anymore is nero. Well, what I guess I'll need to do is keep my eye on the burn speeds for next week or so then install Silent Hunter 3 and see what happens.

[Soback]

Like that article says. The reason it coincides with installation of some game is becaues winXP is trying to read the disk, while receiving an error, and then trying to compensate by downgrading read/write speed .

Since a lot of games use Starforce as their copy protection, uninformed users blame Starforce for their cd/dvd drives becoming slow or un-usable. Since they don't know this "feature" of WinXP, and can't track it down to read/write error because of a scratched or blemished cd that windows is trying to read. And once the cd/dvd speed has been downgraded, it stays that way till manually reset.

To prevent this, make sure the disk that goes in your drive is free of blemishes/scratches. If the drive does start performing at a slower speed, fix the problem by following directions here or here depending on your system , and clean your cd/dvd disk.

[John Prezioso]

I too am VERY suspicious of Starforce. I had some pretty severe cd accessing slowdowns (puntuated by the occassional crash). I ran "crap cleaner", system mechanic, Spybot, AVG, checked for spyware, malware, viruses trojans... I checked for IRQ conflicts and hardware problems.... I tried different disks, tried an optical drive cleaner -- nothing. On a whim I ran the SF removal tool available at the Starforce website, and the problem disappeared. Could this have been coincidence? Maybe. Maybe not. For what it's worth, after running AWA again, and having SF re-install itself, the trouble has not manifested itself again. Food for thought, though...

Ultimately, I am of the opinion that anti-piracy software has NO positive bearing whatsoever on the sales of a PC game. Look at Galciv 2 and Oblivion - two games with virtually no anti-piracy methods at all (Oblivion uses a simple cd-check which could easily be cracked by anyone with a brain). Selling like hotcakes.

[LostInSpace]

quote:

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Originally posted by Soback:

Like that article says. The reason it coincides with installation of some game is becaues winXP is trying to read the disk, while receiving an error, and then trying to compensate by downgrading read/write speed .

Since a lot of games use Starforce as their copy protection, uninformed users blame Starforce for their cd/dvd drives becoming slow or un-usable. Since they don't know this "feature" of WinXP, and can't track it down to read/write error because of a scratched or blemished cd that windows is trying to read. And once the cd/dvd speed has been downgraded, it stays that way till manually reset.

To prevent this, make sure the disk that goes in your drive is free of blemishes/scratches. If the drive does start performing at a slower speed, fix the problem by following directions

here

or

here

depending on your system , and clean your cd/dvd disk.

---

I'll read up those links and stuff a little more later on when I get a chance. However, all my CD's are pretty much in mint condition. I don't mess around with them and I'm the only one that handles them.

[cutterjohn]

Lost was trying to write a disk, and AFAIK writing optical disks includes no verification until after the entire write operation is completed and is usually and optional check box on top of that. i.e. the drive should merrily write the disk, and then in the verification stage kick up the read errors/data loss errors.

I would speculate on starforce further, however I know that the SC frowns on that so I'd just suggest a little more research farther afield. You won't find much info though as all of it will be speculation as starforce is closed, and there is precious little public official info available wrt how it actually functions and what windows operations it patches.

Personally, I'll do without anything that uses starforce.

[Marvin]

quote:

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Originally posted by LostInSpace:

Also, the only burning program I use anymore is nero.

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I couldn't get Silent Hunter III to run until I uninstalled Nero.

Tried many times w/o any luck ... making no changes except defragging. Then, after reading a post here at 3000AD, did just one thing ... uninstalled Nero. Afterward, game ran fine.

[LostInSpace]

This is wierd. Is this thread closed? I only see a folder icon but when I right click on it and select properties: closedb.gif. I thought it was suppose to be lock?

[Soback]

You guys are not reading the articles and therefore shouldn't be speculating whether the problems are caused by Starforce or not.

#1. It doesn't matter if Lost was trying to write a cd or not. ONCE the speed of the drive has been downgraded, it REMAINS as such till corrected MANUALLY.

#2. Having a clean disk is no guarantee that there won't be a read error. It's a good preventor of reading errors, but it's not a 100% guarantee. A bump, a skip, a blemish, scratch, even a little internal glitch can cause an error.

People shouldn't be just throwing something out there and discussing it like facts without reading up and becoming KNOWLEDGEABLE on the subject. An experiment such as "My drive was fine, then I installed a game with starforce and it becamse slow" is NOT proof that Starforce is responsible. Read those articles, one of them is from MICROSOFT, which DETAILS the error, EXPLAINS it, and gives you directions to CORRECT it.

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/817472/

"After the Windows IDE/ATAPI Port driver (Atapi.sys) receives a cumulative total of six time-out or cyclical redundancy check (CRC) errors, the driver reduces the communications speed (the transfer mode) from the highest Direct Memory Access (DMA) mode to lower DMA modes in steps. If the driver continues to receive time-out or CRC errors, the driver eventually reduces the transfer mode to the slowest mode (PIO mode)."

This is just ONE of a multitude of reasons why your drive might become slower.

It's easy to just throw out nonsensical conclusions like "Starforce is responsible for my cd/dvd drive slowdown/breakdown". However, without the analysis and proof, those kinds of conclusions not only hurt the company that created Starforce, BUT it also prevents people with drive slow down problems from addressing the REAL isssue and actually FIXING their problems the right way.

So instead of researching, learning and understanding what really caused their drive to slow down or stop working, and then spending 15 minutes fixing it. They spend 3 hours formating their drive and reinstalling Windows, only to have the problem happen again in the future, and them being ignorant of it, it starts all over again.

[John Prezioso]

quote:

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People shouldn't be just throwing something out there and discussing it like facts without reading up and becoming KNOWLEDGEABLE on the subject. An experiment such as "My drive was fine, then I installed a game with starforce and it becamse slow" is NOT proof that Starforce is responsible.

---

I agree. Which is why I admitted upfront that this was specualtion on my part.

quote:

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Read those articles, one of them is from MICROSOFT, which DETAILS the error, EXPLAINS it, and gives you directions to CORRECT it.

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I followed every instruction to the letter. My drive was not slowed down to PMIO by XP. I still was running at UDMA 3 while experiencing the problem. The problem that only went away after running the SF removal tool. Again, this in and of itself proves nothing, but it IS worth considering...

On a related note, the makers of Starforce are simply not a reputable company, given their recent shenanigans. Any software that does not uninstall itself when the application it came with is uninstalled is malware in my opinion.

[Supreme Cmdr]

quote:

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Originally posted by LostInSpace:

The Arock PCI-E/AGP

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uhm, shouldn't that be the ASRock you discussed over here? I just posted to that thread too btw.

quote:

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Originally posted by LostInSpace:

One thing that was happening was that DVD burns were taking about 45min or more each to burn a 4gig disk.

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Yep. Read 2-3 of my posts here and you'll see why that is. Your drive has probably dropped down to PIO mode.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Soback:

Like that article says. The reason it coincides with installation of some game is becaues winXP is trying to read the disk, while receiving an error, and then trying to compensate by downgrading read/write speed .

---

Yep. And thats why, even though I too use SF in non-D2D versions of UCG and UCAWA, we don't experience those problems. The drivers are the same, but we don't use the CD-ROM for authentication. Instead, it is done online using Starforce ProActive.

SF intentionally embeds bad sectors on a CD-ROM during the burning process. Only their program can read it. Windows just sees that as an error and drops down to PIO mode. Hence the problems.

But don't try telling that to the anti-SF camp.

quote:

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Originally posted by Prez:

Any software that does not uninstall itself when the application it came with is uninstalled is malware in my opinion.

---

uhm, no. The reason this is not done is because if one game removes the SF drivers, how does it know that another - currently installed game - doesn't need it? And guess what? Since the SF drivers are not a standalone install, you would then have to re-install a game that uses it in order for the currently installed games to work. Thats why games don't remove it. The SF sdk does provide the ability for the devs to uninstall SF when their game is uninstalled. We - sensibly - just don't do it for the aforementioned reason. If we did, the next thing you'll hear is something like "...UCAWA broke my BF 1942 install!!!Derek Smart!! Die beeyatch!!"

SF should be able to do an install reference check so that if a game attempts to remove it, the uninstall will fail if the SF install knows about a currently installed game that requires it. And SF would auto-uninstall if its the only game on the system that is being uninstalled. Easier said than done. Its not as easy to implement as it sounds. Hence the reason they have'nt done it.

[ 05-29-2006, 08:24 AM: Message edited by: Supreme Cmdr ]

[LostInSpace]

quote:

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Originally posted by Supreme Cmdr:

1: uhm, shouldn't that be the ASRock you discussed over

here?

I just posted to that thread too btw.

2: Yep.

Read 2-3 of my posts here

and you'll see why that is. Your drive has probably dropped down to PIO mode.

3: Yep. And thats why, even though I too use SF in non-D2D versions of UCG and UCAWA, we don't experience those problems. The drivers are the same, but we don't use the CD-ROM for authentication. Instead, it is done online using Starforce ProActive.

SF intentionally embeds bad sectors on a CD-ROM during the burning process. Only their program can read it. Windows just sees that as an error and drops down to PIO mode. Hence the problems.

But don't try telling that to the anti-SF camp.

4:

"...UCAWA broke my BF 1942 install!!!Derek Smart!! Die beeyatch!!"

---

1: Yeah, heh, bloody typo. I actually had put Asus originally and changed it real fast to Arock also known properly as Asrock.

2&3: Yeah, been reading up on some of the stuff. You would think microsoft would have written in a warning flag that pops up in XP or at least an option that pops up leaving it up to the end user what to do about it. Something at least to let the end user know what the heck is going on. But then again it's microsoft. I'm really starting to feel like Scotty when he was giving the once over for the first time of the U.S.S. Excelsior. What was it he said? Oh yea: "The more they overthink the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain."

4: Heh, that made me laugh. I wasn't expecting that.

Like I said, I was trying to go out of my way and not blame Starforce. Case of circumstantial evidence. I feel sorry now for the many people that are probably in prison because of it. I should have realized that it was micrsoft that was

the culprit here.

Thanks guys, you've given me the confidence to re-install the games with starforce on it. If this issue crops up again with my DVD burner, I'll do the above issue fixes and let you guys know one way or the other.

[Supreme Cmdr]

You need to follow this link I posted and change your registry settings to alleviate the PIO mode drop.

[LostInSpace]

quote:

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Originally posted by Supreme Cmdr:

You need to follow

this link I posted

and change your registry settings to alleviate the PIO mode drop.

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Yeah, I bookmarked it for when and if I need it again. Thanks again and also thanks to soback.

[cutterjohn]

quote:

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Originally posted by Soback:

[QB] You guys are not reading the articles and therefore shouldn't be speculating whether the problems are caused by Starforce or not.

#1. It doesn't matter if Lost was trying to write a cd or not. ONCE the speed of the drive has been downgraded, it REMAINS as such till corrected MANUALLY.]

---

Actually, you're the one not reading. AFAICS the speed degradation is occuring while trying to write an optical disk. Now, I believe that I mention that there is NO verification done during optical drive(CD/DVD) write operations therefore something else is causing the misbehavior. It COULD be a failing drive, but I really doubt it.

As for the degradation to 16bit mode or lower speed operation, you are certainly correct in that assertion.

EDIT: Personally, I've only had ONE game that used starforce and IIRC that was X2, however by the time I purchased it they had just released the patch which removed the protection from the game executable(s). I did not immediately remove starforce, and did NOT experience any of the problems mentioned by others. I DID have nero installed albeit a copy that was several versions older than what other with problems have mentioned, and not likely to be on a starforce blacklist or other identification mechanisms(fingerprinting) by that point. /EDIT

Anyways, this is my final comment on starforce on this board, but in closing I will say:

Note that Bethesda ONLY feels a need to use a very BASIC disk check protection scheme, and Galactic Civilizations II uses no protection. Both are selling very well. I also tend to agree with Molyneux IIRC who stated something along the lines that the pirates aren't likely to buy anything that they pirate in the first place, or enough of them to make it worth the bother invasive protection schemes cause to legitimate customers.

(Next thing you know we'll be collecting USB dongles for apps!)

EDIT:

Another method to restore drive "speed" is to go into the device manager and remove the drives themselves, allowing them to be re-detected and installed by windows. You'd do this AFTER removing starforce drivers though, if you suspect starforce of causing the problem in the first place. /EDIT

[ 06-05-2006, 11:21 PM: Message edited by: cutterjohn ]