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Fleet Roles


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Hi friends,

This post emerged from a conversation I've been having with SC, and which he asked me to post to you guys for comment, and which he wanted to comment on as well. The topic was the difficult time we have recruiting given the shift in focus from RP (which was the original emphasis when the fleets were formed) to MP, and how we might address that difficulty for fleets whose roles were not well-represented by MP play.

Comments as follows:

quote:

I've been researching the fleets and their original formation because currently it's essential to our recruiting efforts to have something we can claim to attract new recruits. Unfortunately for ISS, being a support fleet doesn't look all that sexy to recruits who are choosing a fleet. It made sense when the fleets were about RP, and none of the current fleet roles were favored by the narrative medium--everyone had their role to play, and they could make it look as sexy as they wanted, people were cooperating, and all this was happening within the larger context of the fully-realized SP universe.

However, as the fleets have switched from RP to MP in focus, there is nothing for ISS (or Wraith for that matter) to do in fulfilling their role. MP games don't have logistics, and intelligence gathering (and stealth) is rather moot given the resources of TacOps. Of course the games are action-focused, not persistent world-focused, so this is a natural result of a specific design (let me be clear that this is not a wishlist). In the absence of the old forms of RP, and the action focus of MP, ISS (and Wraith) are essentially trying to compete with Prime and Orion in the realm of a main combat fleet.

Which brings me back to recruiting. Why would anyone join a combat fleet whose role is to offer defensive support when you could join a frontline unit (i.e. Prime) that includes the game developer himself among its senior members? I'm kind of in a quandary here because while I'm getting ISS setup as a top shelf organization with Ben and Nick J, we're not getting recruits because Prime has a kind of built-in prestige that we can't compete with given the current focus of fleet activity.

SC replied,

quote:

I see what you're saying but I can't think of any suggestions atm. If you come up with something, let me know and we'll discuss it.

So, I replied with the following, and SC asked me to post it here for your comments.

quote:

There are two things that come to mind as I think on it.

First, you yourself bring a lot of weight to a cadet's impression of the fleets. I have nothing against Prime, but would you [sC] consider (as GALCOM's SC) having a rotating membership of some kind in the GALCOM fleets? I think Prime in a lot of people's mind means "best" or "most important," which is not what that originally meant at its inception as a main battle fleet. (I was actually surprised to see ISS' prominence in the days of DeSylva, and the activity of RP fleets as I researched the old posts here, and when I reflected on why that was, I wrote the first of these posts.)

The Fleets FAQ could be updated. Currently none of the fleet leaders are correctly listed in the FAQ, and we may want to have them put their heads together and come up with some changes to the actual fleet roles that are appropriate to both the game world and the real world gameplay representing it.

Consider the current roles of these fleets. Prime (in my reading of the older posts) was kind of a fast attack fleet HQ'd at Earth, but mobile throughout GALCOM. Wraith was for SpecOps, ISS maintained defensive installations, non-Earth related Insurgent Suppression and Intelligence Gathering, and Orion was a heavy bastion fleet in the path of the now non-existent Gammulan fleets. This was the landscape in 3000AD in RP terms. The situation in the game world has advanced thirty years, we may want to get the fleet leaders together to update fleet roles and responsibilities accordingly so that all fleets have something to contribute to both RP and MP.

I've also thought about rehabilitating RP by perhaps seeing it done in realtime with the lobby app since you already approved its distribution among active fleet members. I've also thought about RP actually conducted in MP conditions with people showing up in their ships and actually RPing what they're doing (perhaps including MP combat under controlled conditions).

So this is my first go at it, let me know what you think.

Something else I've been working on with Ben Z. and, on and off, with ShoHashi is some kind of spy game that would include CIOPS and Bishamon players trying to pass information over the internet without having it intercepted by the other fleet's counter-intelligence. In this way, CIOPS and Bishamon may have something important to keep them occupied in an RP kind of way, but CIOPS isn't ISS as a whole, and I have no idea how I would involve Wraith. This is another example of how and why we may need to adjust fleet roles in some way.

I look forward to your comments.

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Guest Shingen

I think some sort of co-op MP and RP coordination would be exciting!

Imagine starting a story-line in RP, acting it out in MP and then conveying that back into RP!

However, since the SP universe is vastly different then the MP universe, there couldn't be any "Earth" or "Sol", or any of the systems that exist in SP.

Without RP, different Alliance support fleets really have no value, since there is no "persistant" or "saving" universe. Intel and covert ops are rendered futile.

Why Derek chose to create a different MP universe, instead of a reduced SP universe with SP regions (IE: Sol, Lyrius, Alpha Centuri, Polaris, ect.), has never failed to baffle me.

It's hard to RP in an MP universe when the SP universe is diametrically different.

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Guest Shingen

I'm game if you are.

quote:

Originally posted by DREADA:

I don't see why it matters that the MP and SP universes are different. Think of the two as separate galaxies connected by a wormhole.

It really doesn't matter, only just that I spend almost all of my time in SP. I think in terms of Sol, and Lyrius, and Alpha Centuri.

To think in terms of Procon and others I can't even think of, confuses the hell out of me, and I'm a vet. How is a noob gonna RP when the SP universe he learns while playing SP is so much different then playing MP and then trying to RP, MP conflicts?

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quote:


Originally posted by Zane Marlowe:

So, I replied with the following


To which I said:

Post this as a new subject in the general fleet discussions thread and I'll address it.

One thing that comes to mind is that instead of the fleets having specific roles now, that they all have the role as Prime, but operate in their own sectors.

That might work I think.

quote:


Originally posted by Shingen:

Why Derek chose to create a different MP universe, instead of a reduced SP universe with SP regions (IE: Sol, Lyrius, Alpha Centuri, Polaris, ect.), has never failed to baffle me.


I had my reasons; just because you're baffled doesn't mean I did it just because I wanted to make more work for myself. You think creating a space region - from scratch - is child's play? Its not.

For one thing, the single player game heavily relies on the primary universe. In BCM and BCMG, the IA scenarios took place in their own smaller and more compact univers. In UC, I [heavily] revised the engines so that I could alleviate some of this work by having all scenarios use the same galaxy.

Multiplayer is a whole other kettle of fish. Do you have ANY idea how big Sol - by itself - is? Let alone having Sol, Lyrius and whatnot?

Then you have the issue of alliances. To even have Sol in multiplayer would mean changing a LOT of things in order to support e.g. Gammulans, Insurgents etc change the location, alliances etc of the stations. Then I'd have to add, remove, relocate stations etc. What would I end up with? A duplicate copy of a section (in this case, Sol) of the primary game galaxy but with a vastly different layout. No thanks. Starting from scratch with a multiplayer specific galaxy alleviates all of the above issues, work and whatnot because I have a clean slate.

I understand the issue with role-playing and whatnot, but the whole premise behind roleplaying came about before multiplayer was even envisioned for the series. So, when I was doing the mp world, I wasn't sitting around going ...oh darn, this is going to break RP. Yeah, right.

GCO uses the primary galaxy and its architecture has each starsystem on a separate server, with the jump anomalies actually linking servers together in a cluster. Thats different; since there is NO single player component in GCO and that galaxy creation too was a clean slate in more ways than one.

As far as server side saves are concerned, I'll just regurgitate what I said to you earlier today on PM.

quote:


Shingen:
but you'll make far more profit figuring out how to make the SP universe in MP persistant!

heh, unlikely.

quote:


Shingen:
We don't want Procon, we want Polaris!

That primary UC galaxy is too big to use in the current architecture. Which is why only the new GCO (the pay-for-play MMO) architecture can power it.

quote:


Shingen:
We want to save what we do

I am investigating how to do that in the UC add-on without too much work or requiring a mySQl dB backend (like what GCO requires and uses). But don't hold your breath if it doesn't happen in any standalone title. The architecture is just too much hassle to revise to support it. Thats why I started from scratch with GCO as far as that layer is concerned.

quote:


Shingen:
The heart of BC MP needs to be persistant, with the ability to save stats. Without this feature, BC MP won't fly.

It will be. Its called GCO and that GameCQ lobby is just the tip of the iceberg for what we're doing.

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I should mention that it occurred to me to perhaps use the Fleet Action map I created as a way of structuring a new style of RP based around MP interaction, but, if Shingen will bear with me, let me call attention back to the question of how we could, should, or might restructure fleet roles. The RP question needs its own thread IMO since Fleet Roles transcend RP or MP per se.

Should the fleets reorganize their taskings to allow for more universal access to MP opportunities? What about SC's idea? Personally, I like that each fleet has some kind of specialization, but of course that's not helping me recruit when ISS' specialization can't be represented in MP very well if at all, so I'm kind of 50/50 on that solution.

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Guest Remo Williams

Fleet Roles should remain as is, at least Primes will remain the same. ThatÔÇÖs all I have to say on that topic.

Fleet leader might consider bringing the RP element back into their organization along with MP. We started restructuring yet again a couple days ago to allow for two branches in Prime one for MP one for RP. That way I don't have to kick people from the fleet because they can't or won't play MP.

Read here for more info on our new structure.

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Guest Remo Williams

quote:

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Shingen:We don't want Procon, we want Polaris!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That primary UC galaxy is too big to use in the current architecture. Which is why only the new GCO (the pay-for-play MMO) architecture can power it.

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Shingen:We want to save what we do

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am investigating how to do that in the UC add-on without too much work or requiring a mySQl dB backend (like what GCO requires and uses). But don't hold your breath if it doesn't happen in any standalone title. The architecture is just too much hassle to revise to support it. Thats why I started from scratch with GCO as far as that layer is concerned.


Hmm I'm trying to figure out who this WE is that Shingen keeps refering to, because its sure not me. Hey maybe he has a mouse in his pocket.

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Guest Shingen

quote:

Originally posted by Remo Williams:

Hmm I'm trying to figure out who this WE is that Shingen keeps refering to, because its sure not me. Hey maybe he has a mouse in his pocket.

Just people I talk to. This game has been around a long time, and people talk.

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quote:

Originally posted by Remo Williams:

Fleet Roles should remain as is, at least Primes will remain the same. ThatÔÇÖs all I have to say on that topic.

I see little need for Prime to change what its role is, given its success in recruiting and its fitness for MP owing to its role as a frontline combat fleet. Who would want to change what works?

The question is, will the other fleets remain as they are or will they essentially become frontline fleets like Prime (and Orion), dropping roles that are not "MP friendly," or keeping them and adding other roles that are.

SC has suggested the possibility that all the fleets take the modular form (bringing specialized tasks in-house so to speak) that Prime has, and then be simply assigned to different sectors. As I said, I think that solve the practical problem of getting support fleets something to do in MP, but it also loses some of the specialization that gives a fleet a unique character relative to the other fleets. Can we preserve that uniqueness somehow?

What if the fleets just added special taskings that required MP operations? For instance, what if Wraith were designated a rapid deployment force, and in fleet matches got to deploy closer to an objective, but were limited to only heavy cruisers or (in some circumstances) even super fighters? That would stay within their mandate as a SpecOps fleet (light and fast), and would require them to evolve tactics that reflected their fleet specialty in MP. I speculate because I'm not Wraith, and I'm not sure if that's at all appealing to them, but it does have the virtue of being 1) an extension of Wraith's current specialized tasking, and 2) immediately relevant to the kinds of MP play we do.

Could ISS have a similar kind of tasking extension? Nothing jumps out at me just yet, but the idea in general of adjusting Fleet ROE at matches to accommodate the specialized strengths and weaknesses of a given fleet (as suggested in the Wraith exampe above) is interesting, I'm curious to see what you guys think, or what you might suggest or come up with in that kind of scheme.

[ 11-16-2004, 10:37 PM: Message edited by: Zane Marlowe ]

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Guest Shingen

Well, being me, I think we all need a reality check. It's fine for Remo to toe the party line, and you gotta respect him for that, but I'm a Raider by nature, and I have to ask why. What's the point of fleets, if no one RPs or plays fleet MP games beside Fleet Leaders? Why can't we just play matches as individual Commanders?

Things being as they are,in all realism, there isn't enough participation in Fleets, in either RP or MP to yet define what Fleets are. Only time will tell.

Please understand..this isn't personal...only my comments...and it's just a game, in the end.

[ 11-16-2004, 11:09 PM: Message edited by: Shingen ]

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Bleh, dunno.

Fleets in MP should be their primary assocation. Galcom, Insurgent, or Raider.

In RP you can write yourself into or out of any situation.

So it seems to me that a group of players who joined ISS could just play MP and kick rear as ISS. While the RP guy in the group could write ISS as the In System Support fleet and fend off any Insurgent incursions.

These things can be mutually exclusive.

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Guest Remo Williams

quote:

Originally posted by Courtney Cox:

Is there a scenario with the regular universe other than the procon system. If not can someone make one for the MP servers. I think it would be cool to do your travels in the regular universe.

heh, Nice try cadet its not going to happen though. If you want to cruise the sol system fire up SP and start writing up some RP story line. Then you can be assigned to Beta Wing at GHQ Earth.

If you want to MP then you will be assigned to Alpha Wing at Prime HQ in Procon.

Now back on topic. I'm a believer in organization before participation and believe that is the reason Prime has an advantage in membership and participants for MP. Once each fleet has a firm foundation. A set of rules, or charter to run by, a standardized rank structure, a system to train new players, and teach them the ropes of how your fleet functions. It don't matter if itÔÇÖs a specialized fleet or a front line fleet as Prime then the players will come and beat on your door to get in.

You need strong leadership thatÔÇÖs active with its members to the point it hurts. I've spent allot of my time and money to get the things Prime has now. If you really want members for your fleet for MP and RP, start doing some if not all that I've mentioned above they will come.

Start writing out ROE for your fleet to use against others that fits your special role. Don't wait for me to do it because I'm not the big guns or the covert OPÔÇÖs so I'm not making ROE to reflect that aspect of the fleets. Build your fleet on that special role. Start a training program or Academy to teach new community members the game the way your fleet plays it. Make it fun give the community something to learn something to do! I'm telling you they will want to do it. I helped setup a program that teaches the community noobs the basics in game play from all aspects of the game. Now you guys offer a different and special aspect of the game.

If you guys take this wait and see attitude youÔÇÖre right this is the end of the special fleets, and the end of fleet MP in the near future.

Remo out!

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You guys remind me of cavalry officers wondering what to do when horses no longer became a rational option in a war.

The SC had the right idea ... fleet leaders should develop scenarios where shuttles or other "defendable" objects can be stashed in or near more than one planet or starstation. Each faction would be required to defend an assigned area ... and that area could be permanent.

We could also have allotments ... each fleet being assigned a specific number of members. Once a fleet meets its quota, new applicants must look elsewhere.

About Shin's "we" ...

Any time the SC wants to create a stand-alone that saves game stats, I'm all over it. For me, that would be primo number one selling point for multiplayer ... the best reason to log on and stay on day after day after day ... leastwise, until I've upgraded the Asimov to the hilt ... making it unbeatable in combat (thanks, in part, to a well-trained, high-AI crew).

But I digress.

Just as the horse soldiers came up with a new mission to fit the 20th century military, ISS and other fleets must come up with missions to fit MP. Depending on the restrictions (ROE), more than six players can get into a fleet match at one time ... allowing Prime to defend Procon while other GalCom fleets defend other areas of space.

Yup. Put the horses out to pasture and find yourself an OC.

And stop by the Alpha Wing Bar on your way out.

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Guest Remo Williams

Well I see we have a difference of opinion on this Chief in a few area's. We'll have to discuss this more in private so we keep a united front where Prime fleets agenda is concerned.

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quote:


Originally posted by Zane Marlowe:

I see little need for Prime to change what its role is, given its success in recruiting and its fitness for MP owing to its role as a frontline combat fleet. Who would want to change what works?


As the leader of Prime, there won't be any changes to its tasking. Remo, Marvin and his crew have done a good job of it so far, which is why I take a hands-off approach to it. So, these discussions have NOTHING to do with Prime; its fine just the way it is.

quote:


The question is, will the
other
fleets remain as
they
are or will they essentially become frontline fleets like Prime (and Orion), dropping roles that are not "MP friendly," or keeping them and adding other roles that are.

As I indicated previously, this is probably the best route which would result in minimal hassle.

quote:


SC has suggested the possibility that all the fleets take the modular form (bringing specialized tasks in-house so to speak) that Prime has, and then be simply assigned to different sectors.

Correct

quote:


As I said, I think that solve the practical problem of getting support fleets something to do in MP, but it also loses some of the specialization that gives a fleet a unique character relative to the other fleets. Can we preserve that uniqueness somehow?

There's nothing preventing a fleet from having thast specialization internal to its own structure. Thats how the real life military units work. e.g. the Army has an intel unit; as does the Navy etc

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Guest Remo Williams

quote:

Originally posted by DREADA:

quote:

Originally posted by SC:

One thing that comes to mind is that instead of the fleets having specific roles now, that they all have the role as Prime, but operate in their own sectors.

Whilst being a monumental change to the historic format of GALCOM fleets, I'd welcome it!

How would the bit about "operating in their own sector" translate into the current format with ROE fleet matches though?

ps. Is no one interested in the related MP/RP scenarios discussed at the beginnning?


ThatÔÇÖs fine with me also. As far as ROE or match changes it wouldn't change much at all except that all ROE for a fleet would be conduct in the fleets area of control.

As far as combining MP and RP I'm not interested, but that doesn't mean the other fleets can't combine the two. All I care about is the documented ROE that is compatible with the score system. The match would be scored the same as a non-RP match. I wouldn't even care to hear about the RP portion that could be in a separate document or however you guys decide you would like to play it makes no difference to me. Since I won't be involved in those matches except to score the log.

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quote:


Originally posted by Remo Williams:

As far as combining MP and RP


This never has been - and shouldn't be - a requirement for fleet participation. The premise of RP has nothing to do with MP. If folks who want to RP can do so [on their own] in the MP framework, so be it; thats their problem.

I probably should blame Shingen for all of this RP in MP blur; so I'm making this clear now:

My mp servers have NOTHING to do with RP and were NEVER intended to have ANYTHING to do with it.

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That's actually probably my fault, but to be clear, the idea would be that we'd RP "in person" so to speak, since the environment is expansive enough to represent ship and planetbased situations. This is of course unrelated to the MP fleet matches (RP is not scored of course), and is does not imply any kind of "wishlist."

As I said, rehabilitating RP is worth another topic thread. More later, I have to go teach philosophy now

ZM

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Well, I've been spending some time thinking over these ideas, and something occurred to me in the shower this morning that I thought made good sense considering all the discussion so far.

IMO, for fleets who desire to get into a "frontline" role (as ISS might, and Dreada seems to indicate Wraith does), then it makes a lot of sense to adjust those fleets' roles per SC's outline as stated above.

However, it's also been the case that what recruits I've gotten (and some of those whom I know Wraith has attracted) have been recruited by the sense of specialization that Wraith and ISS have. Certainly it wouldn't make a lot of sense to be called the "In-System Support" fleet if logistics and intel support were no longer our role. So here's what I'd submit as a way of having the best of both.

It seems very easy to reorganize fleet roles so that all the fleets are main battle fleets ala Prime, but we might preserve that specialization at the wing level. ISS is already in some sense doing this since CIOPS is a wing within the Fleet, but its other wings are mainline combat units. The difference in the new scheme is that ISS would have a frontline role, but would retain its intelligence specialization within a specific wing. Similarly, Wraith might have its WSOG group be the specialized SpecOps unit within a regular main battle fleet organization (I note that currently they have a marine unit and a fighter wing, but no CC wings). (ISS would therefore in theory have two specialized wings, CIOPS and a Logistics Support wing, but I don't think a logistics wing would have to be present in the fleet db since it's more of an RP concept and people sign up for action, not logistics.)

Does this make sense? It seems to preserve the best of both worlds, as far as I can see, by retaining specializations that have attracted membership and given these fleets their distinct "flavor," but then also solving the MP tasking and recruiting issue by confirming these fleets in a frontline role per SC's post.

I phrase this suggestion in the form of a request for comments since I'm not the FL for ISS (I've been waiting for Ben Z. to weigh in here) and since these are broad changes that would be somewhat permanent so I realize that we should move carefully.

Let me know what you think.

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Well, the intel aspect of ISS was always an rp thing, if that can be reflected in some good mp ROE's as well, then I'm all for it. Defence has always been about combat/policing, but is also privvy to classified Tactical intel, making them a fearsome force, ready to stop any threat to our most valued assets.

The logistics/battle support/unconventional roles aspect is also more of an rp thing, so I'm agreeing with you, Zane.

So, role specialisations are mainly for rp, but if those fleets can come up with some creative and functional ROE's to reflect those roles, then that can only be good for the mp experience as a whole IMO.

However, any such ROE's must be properly tested and balanced before being used in an actual match to be scored.

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Specialized Fleet Roles

Offensive: The guys who go out and attack in other regions of space. Prime Fleet should be offensive.

Defensive: The guys who babysit the home front. In most scenarios, these guys will see as much action as the offensive players.

Logistix: The guys who work before and after the fleet match. These are the guys who would do the coordinating, score-keeping, and posting of stats ... stuff currently being done by Remo. ISS could do this ... along with some Intel collecting that still needs to be done.

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Guest Remo Williams

Ok I think SC's idea is the best way to go as far as assigned regions it only makes sense. All the fleets have already been assigned stations in the MP universe so it only goes to say that is one of the regions that a fleet will be assigned as an area of control.

The only thing thatÔÇÖs been stopping fleets from carrying out the specialized roles in MP is that NO ONE has made the ROE for them to use. I'm growing weary of all this so YES I'm going to make some special ROE for you all maybe this will get you started I don't know. Its only obvious to me don't know why you guys keep talking about fleet roles youÔÇÖve had your fleet roles for years and now you want to change them. Why, beats the hell out of me, when all that needs to be done is some creative thinking to establish documented ROE that fits your Fleets role.

Anyway I'm done talking about roles I'm going to make the needed ROE so you all can carry out your fleet roles. The only thing here that needs to be decide is how were going to carve up the MP universe into areas of control?

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