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Sounds like a whole helluva lot of work just to have fun.

So, Sho and I start from the default Insurgent station in multiplay. We jump to procon and destroy Supreme Commander and Zane Marlow.

We now own the region and the scoreboard is updated?

Next session. Supreme Commander and Zane are offically dead so they can't play. BUT we own procon. HOWEVER all galcom players are going to spawn at Procon.

OR is there a huge honor system where Galcom players must choose the appropriate station to launch from?

I hate the rules thing and the asset weight thing.

Hope I don't sound too harsh.

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Note quite the response I had hoped for but...

Let me comment briefly on SC's statement about Alliance Leader Input and then turn to Dreada and Chavik's posts.

I'm not proposing rules to be integrated into the official 3000AD game universe. This is a gameboard concept, and I've played enough of those to know what kinds of concepts might be fun to port in. Because this is an unofficial gameplay offering that I am creating to offer to those who want to participate in it--Official Fleets or just interested players--it's been my working understanding that while I want input to make it the best it can be, I don't need permission to create this. SC has been very clear about NOT supporting this officially and I haven't seen anybody step up to help me actually do the hard work that's been keeping me up till 4am on some nights in the last two weeks. So on the one hand, if people have anything to say about this, they can come help me do the hard work of finishing it and earn the right to guide the direction of this unofficial offering.

On the other hand however, I think that almost every post in this thread by me has me asking for people's input. If the Fleet Leaders wanted to say something about rules, complexity, etc., they haven't done so yet. What I have heard is one of two things. It's either (1) people being skeptical about my ability to technically organize and create this, or (2) people asking questions that I have to this point considered to be honest ones about things that needed clarification, not rhetorical questions amounting to "we hate this and you should stop."

(It would be a strange irony indeed for players of the BC/UC series to suggest that something was too complex or not going to be fun when (1) they had seen the project before it was finished/ready, (2) the proposed features seemed like they'd need a manual to understand, and (3)the developer was committed to polishing it after it was released.)

To answer what I think is an honest question from Chavik, nobody officially dies. (Nobody officially anything for that matter, as I've said above.) Officially stations don't change hands, and we don't redraw the official map when planets change hands in my unofficial copy of it.

How we coordinate this in MP is basically that we play a battle in MP, and then the planet on the website changes ownership. Next time you play MP, what's the difference? None. Nothing changes when you're actually playing UC MP, unless you have come to believe that SC has decided drop some coin and recode his entire MP offering along the lines of a newb with a project that's only a little over two weeks old. The reason I've been doing this is to create an unofficial geo-political purpose that interested and participating commanders and fleets can, if they desire, include in their MP games. If you want a working example of something like this, take a look at the dynaverse concept in the SFC series (it's actually integrated into the game code, but the basic concept is there).

Now to Dreada's honest question. The Fleet Rating or Logistics element is one for the Strategic part of the game only. We could have a basic map that just says where people are or who controls what planets, but one of the main purposes behind having a map is to create the necessity for strategic movement on that map. That's something scoreboards don't do. Logistics/Fleet Ratings assess strategic strength or weakness, and so while they aren't strictly necessary for UC MP games to be organized, they create the circumstances under which a Fleet Commander might choose to attack or retreat on the gameboard. Without this, then basically all the fleets converge at the first common middle point and the strategic game never moves from there as they continue to pound one another at full strength. In that case, the map is useless and there is no strategic game.

So, I hope I've clarified, and I hope that if people have honest questions I can continue to answer them. If you're skeptical about the final outcome, then wait until it's released and see what you think. If people do or don't like the rules then, we can make adjustments, and I'm open to doing so. So far I've been pursuing my own vision (unofficially) of something that people haven't already done here and which I will offer to players here if they want to participate in it. If there are comments or questions, again, I invite people to ask. If people want to debate the rules I've suggested in the previous posts in this thread, then I invite them to do so at the Fleet Action forums where you need not be registered to post in the open discussion and we can continue whatever discussion you may have there.

ZM out.

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Of course I am "going my own way" with it, Fleet Action is my project after all. Nobody's helped me build it, and the input I've asked for has been met with skepticism about implementation, and sometimes about complexity. Now I'm responsible for the former, and if you think the latter is true, then don't play with Fleet Action--it's that simple.

I'm not concerned about it's being officially adopted, and I'm not trying to get you to buy this. I'm just putting something out there that if people want to play, they can--it's a web-based board game addon (if you want it in its simplest form) not an official product of 3000AD.

The only determination I have is to actually finish this project and let people talk about changing it when it's out there.

Are you saying that you think it's done as it stands now if the map were released? I'm not sure what you're asking for except that if all you wanted was a scoreboard and a map, you could have had it in about ten minutes two weeks ago. I made it then and it seemed basically useless. I started something more ambitious, but if you don't like the finished project, then let's talk about it when it's done. Nobody believed I could pull this off when I started, and now that I'm close, I'm going to finish it and let people judge the finished product.

ZM out.

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quote:


Originally posted by Zane Marlowe:

I'm going to finish it and let people judge the finished product.

ZM out.


Sounds like a plan.

But remember, if you make it too complex - and nobody uses it - all your efforts would have been for nought. Imagine having to go back and make a ton of revisions in order to make it playable.

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quote:

Originally posted by Supreme Cmdr:

Sounds like a plan.

But remember, if you make it too complex - and nobody uses it - all your efforts would have been for nought. Imagine having to go back and make a ton of revisions in order to make it playable.

That's Fair SC, thanks for reserving judgment.

More soon...

ZM out.

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Hey Zane, I think it would be a good idea if you make a new post with all the things that you would really like input from the people around here, so that we have one post to look at and not a whole thread. Maybe I could give you input from a different pint of view.On a related note Also, when I was younger I used to create board games, though i dropped them in the process, (conquering planets, building planetary facilitis, space fleets and all that kind of things) ala Master of Orion or Space empires, you get the picture, so *maybe* i *could* help.

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quote:

To answer what I think is an honest question from Chavik, nobody officially dies. (Nobody officially anything for that matter, as I've said above.) Officially stations don't change hands, and we don't redraw the official map when planets change hands in my unofficial copy of it.

It was honest. I'm trying to wrap my head around this.

To me, tournament implies a series of games that need to be played to determine the champion.

Anything else I might say is now moot since Derek has agreed to "see what it looks like".

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quote:

Originally posted by Cmdr Chavik:

To me, tournament implies a series of games that need to be played to determine the champion.

That's correct. There are different kinds of tournaments. The NBA is a bracket-elimination tournament (32-->16-->8-->4-->2-->winner). Ladder tournaments are another kind (win=3, loss=0, draw=1, greatest number of points wins), but a map tournament structures a sequence of games according to when and where people engage one another on a map--just like playing Risk. Armies move on the map, there are ways to gauge how strong those armies are (or fleets for us), and there are ways to resupply them. When one side has conquered the galaxy or its objective (these can be different depending on the kind of map-based game you play), you start over and do it again.

More soon...

ZM out.

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quote:

there are ways to gauge how strong those armies are

You don't have to gauge. Asset weighting is usless. You aren't rolling dice or flipping cards here. You have an actual real time scenario wherein the actual players determine the outcome.

Exactly what I said several posts above.

But I agree with you that no one officially dies and can't play.

quote:

When one side has conquered the galaxy or its objective (these can be different depending on the kind of map-based game you play), you start over and do it again.


Exactly. How do you conquer the galaxy? You win regions. How do you win regions? Last man standing. How do you prove last man standing? Derek's proposed data dump to a web page. Plus some honor system.

remember Stations are invincible until the rebuild data packet begins being sent. #14 in the UC VCF Issues Under Investigation. So last man standing is the only way to denote control of region.

I probably shouldn't have stuck my nose into this. hehe

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Well, the map is done, and you can go look at it. I'm going to write some documentation for this, but I think we can playtest now.

Each fleet is depicted on the map in green, with their alliance and fleet rating beneath them.

Let me suggest a simplified set of basic rules to get started for now (and if people do/don't like it, we can modify appropriately).

1. Orders. Fleet Commanders use their fleets on the mapboard by giving an order. Orders alternate between all participating fleets, so if you give an order, you won't get to give another one until everyone else has given one too. Orders can be either move, attack, or resupply.

2. Move orders. You can move from one planetary region to another. You cannot move into a planetary region occupied by an enemy fleet.

3. Attacks. Enemy fleets in an adjacent planatery region are vulnerable to attack. An attack order generates a multiplayer engagement. Last man standing wins. Winner moves into the system and the loser retreats to another adjacent planetary region.

4. Resupply. If a fleet stays stationary, it may resupply itself to gain back points lost in prior battles. Resupply gains 10 points back, up to a maximum of the initial 100 points that the fleet started with.

5. Fleet Rating. This is simply a measure of the health of the fleet. When a fleet loses a battle, it loses 10 points of its fleet rating. When a fleet wins, it gains 10 points to its fleet rating. If a fleet loses all of its points, then the fleet has been destroyed. Fleets begin with a default rating of 100.

Okay, that seems simple enough. Participating Fleets/Commanders can email their orders to me and I will update the database accordingly.

Does that sound simple enough to try out? If so, I need a list of participating Fleets and Commanders to feed into the database and then we can get started.

ZM out.

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oh yeah, a couple extra notes about the map. You may need an SVG viewer to see the jump lanes, and you can download it from the link in the first post on this page.

Also, because SVG requires your computer to actually crunch the math to draw the lines to the space lanes, this map can be resource intensive. I'm working on fixing that with Doug Schepers (whom I'll plug here since he's helped me out so crucially), but for now the quick fix if your gfx memory starts dropping redraw is to just close and reopen the page.

Also, if you have comments on the way labels appear in the map, I'm open to suggestions there because I went for simplicity and there are a few nagging details that I haven't quite worked my way around yet.

ZM out.

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First of all, Zane, I really like the initiative you're bringing to the community and I am very eager to see it finished!

quote:

Originally posted by Zane Marlowe:

1. Orders. Fleet Commanders use their fleets on the mapboard by giving an order. Orders alternate between all participating fleets, so if you give an order, you won't get to give another one until everyone else has given one too. Orders can be either move, attack, or resupply.

How is this data going to be managed, because what I make out of your ideas there is only one man who is kinda the "Dungeon Master", you.

Every Fleet commander send his orders to you, you update the map accordingly and send out a request for the next set of orders to the fleet commanders, is that correct?

This would mean heaps of work for you just to let the basics run.

quote:

Originally posted by Zane Marlowe:

2. Move orders. You can move from one planetary region to another. You cannot move into a planetary region occupied by an enemy fleet.

What about cloaked...? Hehe no just kidding.

quote:

Originally posted by Zane Marlowe:

3. Attacks. Enemy fleets in an adjacent planatery region are vulnerable to attack. An attack order generates a multiplayer engagement.

This means that if the SP world is used in Fleet Action, the MP world is of no significance to Fleet Action, right?

The only time you have to start multiplayer is when an attack is commenced and then it doesn't matter in which MP system this is; the multiplayer region the battle is fought in actually is a SP world region. So as long as all players choose the same region to fight in, it doesn't matter how this region is called in MP.

(You might have to make some jumps in order to get to the battlefield though... that might slow things down...)

My point is that this would immediately decrease the odds people using Fleet Action on the long term as far as I can see. Even more so when Fleets become more active and MP gets more active as time passes.

Why not having Fleet Action use the MP world. This will result in people having reference points in-game and also the strategic part may be setup in-game as a whole once more members are interested in Fleet Action and the concept is even more worked out. I figure you wouldn't want to be porting the world over later on.

It's not that the idea at the moment wouldn't work, but I would be using the MP world to be prepared for changes in future.

On a whole I do like the idea, though.

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quote:


Originally posted by Cmdr Chavik:

I probably shouldn't have stuck my nose into this. hehe


Well, I'm living vicariously through you because outside of reading your posts, I don't have a frigging what Zane is up to, nor what his ultimate goal is. Coming from a perspective of someone who designs and develops complex games, thats not a good thing.

quote:


Originally posted by Zane Marlowe:

oh yeah, a couple extra notes about the map. You may need an SVG viewer to see the jump lanes, and you can download it from the link in the first post on this page.


...and since Opera does not support ActiveX, don't use it.

quote:


Originally posted by Mordax Blyrr:

First of all, Zane, I really like the initiative you're bringing to the community and I am very eager to see it finished!


Traitor!!!

quote:


Originally posted by Mordax Blyrr:

Why not having Fleet Action use the MP world.


Let the record show that I made this point earlier on in this thread - and for basically the same reasons you stated.

[ 06-15-2004, 01:52 PM: Message edited by: Supreme Cmdr ]

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Zane,

I don't think you're gonna be able to restrict an on-line, real-time battle to turn-based rules and regulations. If you do, I predict you'll have a lot of commanders wandering around in their "designated" zones, arguing about who goes next, and laughing their butts off.

One of the great tactical axioms is, "He who hesitates is lost," but, when the game is unrealistically turn-based, "He who hesitates" can take as long as he needs. Command leaders of quick and decisive action need not apply.

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quote:

Originally posted by Mordax Blyrr:

How is this data going to be managed, because what I make out of your ideas there is only one man who is kinda the "Dungeon Master", you.

Every Fleet commander send his orders to you, you update the map accordingly and send out a request for the next set of orders to the fleet commanders, is that correct?

This would mean heaps of work for you just to let the basics run.

There are two concerns here. Who has change access to the data, and keeping up with dataflow. To answer the second concern, I'm going to distribute change access to the data. I think I can put together a fairly secure MS Access database that allows access only to those parts of the fleet data that Fleet Commanders are allowed to access and change--things like fleet orders, fleet rating, exp, and so on. It's honors system stuff, but there will be plenty of witnesses to foul play and any game requires good sportsmanship. As far as who gets it, I was thinking the Fleet Commanders of each participating fleet. That way they can update their own. The alternative is that I do it myself, or deputize someone trusted--either of which is okay, because at this point it's not like we have ten fleets to manage and the data that changes is actually not much: fleet location, fleet rating, system ownership (on the assumption we used the basic ruleset I suggested). I will eventually have web-based access to the data that I can make available to Admins at the Fleet Action site, but at the moment the quickest fix if I need to distribute is to adapt my MS Access front end.

quote:

Originally posted by Mordax Blyrr:

What about cloaked...? Hehe no just kidding.

Actually, my original idea was to do it double-blind, so that the only fleets you'd see on the map would be the ones from your alliance, and then if you got adjacent to another fleet on the map you might see them, but that's again a future possibility and people wanted something simple--so for now it's like playing Risk, everybody's information is open.

quote:

Originally posted by Mordax Blyrr:

The only time you have to start multiplayer is when an attack is commenced and then it doesn't matter in which MP system this is; the multiplayer region the battle is fought in actually is a SP world region. So as long as all players choose the same region to fight in, it doesn't matter how this region is called in MP.

Correct, with the caveat that the MP world should resemble the SP world in regards to whether or not it has a Star Station.

quote:

Originally posted by Mordax Blyrr:

My point is that this would immediately decrease the odds people using Fleet Action on the long term as far as I can see. Even more so when Fleets become more active and MP gets more active as time passes.

Why not having Fleet Action use the MP world. This will result in people having reference points in-game and also the strategic part may be setup in-game as a whole once more members are interested in Fleet Action and the concept is even more worked out. I figure you wouldn't want to be porting the world over later on.

Actually, this would be no problem to accomplish. I would just need to import the data to the database. The database draws whatever planets are in there, and if people really actually do want to use the MP world, then I can just save the existing planets table (for later use) and import the data from the MP world. It wouldn't take long (half an hour maybe?) and the whole site would then generate the MP world instead. My only reservations with using the MP world was that it didn't seem like it was large enough to allow for a larger game, but since we're beginning and testing things out, I'm open to doing this. Talk more about it and let's get a consensus about what people want to do before we commit, but I can actually have two tables in the db and just name whatever one we want to play on "planets" and all the pertinent data will generate the site content automatically (the drop menus, the map, the planet profiles, etc.).

quote:

Originally posted by Supreme Cmdr:

...and since Opera does not support ActiveX, don't use it.

Well, let the record show that I don't like the current need for SVG because of its resource intensiveness and requirement for a third party plugin, but if you know a better way to draw lines on a map with data fed from a database, I'm all ears. I learned what I needed to know about SQL, PHP, CSS, SVG, and lots of other letters of the alphabet to get this much accomplished, so I'm open to new ideas that require me to have a little more knowledge--drawing a line on a map should be pretty simple after all, and it surprised me that it was as tough to do as it was.

quote:

Originally posted by Marvin:

I don't think you're gonna be able to restrict an on-line, real-time battle to turn-based rules and regulations.

That's true. When people get into MP, it's anything goes when the game starts. Defending Fleets will have orders to deploy into a system that has a relevant similarity to the one they are defending on the SP map (assuming we were to stick with the SP map), and when the defending fleet is gathered in that home system, then they have to defend it. Battles are finished when the last man is dead, and it's entirely possible we could just let battle range over the entire MP world until that happens. Your point is that battles are dynamic, and I agree with you that trying to constrain commanders when in battle could be pointless.

Of course, as a suggestion, we could include rules that give the attacker a certain period of time to commit to the attack (games are scheduled by opposing fleet commanders right? What if we said, "you have to attack planet x within 15 (or 20, or whatever) minutes of the scheduled match time start), and if they don't, then they forfeit the battle. For the defenders, if they leave the system they are defending, then they forfeit the battle. No waiting (unless the attacker is going to end up forfeitign), and no wandering around wondering what to do. The mission package tells the defending fleet to defend MP world x, and the attacking fleet to attack them there.

The only wrench in that is jump lines into and out of the system, because if the MP world doesn't have the same number of jumplines, then you have a strategically different situation. Nonetheless, it's possible we could just overlook that and say "defend world x" and whoever's left standing at the end wins. Battles are battles.

When it's all said and done, this is actually a meta-game that is supposed to give us something to fight for in MP games that exceeds the bounds of the MP world. If you think about it, the entire game would be over in an evening's play if we use the MP world because once you've defeated the opposing fleet, you've defeated all the resistance in that entire universe. That's not true if we use the SP map, because losing a battle there just means you've inflicted attrition on the enemy fleet and forced them to retreat from the region you now occupy.

At least that's my reasoning. As I said, I'm open to suggestions.

ZM out.

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quote:

Originally posted by Supreme Cmdr:

quote:

Originally posted by Mordax Blyrr:

First of all, Zane, I really like the initiative you're bringing to the community and I am very eager to see it finished!


Traitor!!!


Well just giving the man credit for his ongoing 'struggle' and you have to admit that his website looks quite good too. Besides, I am an Insurgent, what do you expect?

quote:

Originally posted by Supreme Cmdr:

quote:

Originally posted by Mordax Blyrr:

Why not having Fleet Action use the MP world.

Let the record show that I made this point earlier on in this thread - and for basically the same reasons you stated.


I know, just stressing it a bit more.

quote:

Originally posted by zanemarlowe:

There are two concerns here. Who has change access to the data, and keeping up with dataflow. To answer the second concern, (...)

Ok, but in case you let the commanders handle the data changes, how in earth would one know when its his turn to issue orders again?

I think giving too much people access to the database will result in confusion fests.

The most solid option is of one 'dungeon master' so to speak who handles all administrative tasks, but this will result in one person doing the dirty work...

As for the world to use, I really would port the MP world into your project now that its still in preview status.

quote:

Originally posted by Supreme Cmdr:

Dear Lord, NO WAY am I reading all that. I'll just wait for Chavik's interpretation.

ROTFL!

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quote:


Originally posted by Zane Marlowe:

You COULD just read YOUR response


Why? I didn't see anything that I could possibly respond to. Besides, I said I didn't read it. But after reading this post, I still maintain that the excerpt to me, doesn't warrant a response because I have absolutely no clue what you're doing, how you're doing it or how you expect me to help (!) you do it. So no, I can't help. Sorry.

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quote:

Originally posted by Supreme Cmdr:

Why? I didn't see anything that I could possibly respond to.

Oh, well, actually I was half serious about finding out if you knew a better way to draw a line with a web script since SVG is currently being used to draw the jumplines and you can't see it without a plugin. Although we're actually working that out, you're a professional programmer as opposed to (me) a database nerd who knows enough to hack his way through some scripting, and I didn't know if you knew a better way to accomplish that. SVG is the best I've found and currently I'm working with a guy on improving performance for it, but I'm still looking around for a better technology to do the job if it's out there.

Also, I've updated the map to show the flux lines travelling between Obsidia, Alteris, and Droia (that the SVG part I'm working around) and made the fleets on the map color coded--GALCOM is blue, and the Insurgent Fleets (Bishamon has been added) are Red. If the Gammulans show up, we can put them in green or some other color; I'm not picky about this really. ("Why do I have to be Mr. Pink?")

ZM out.

[ 06-16-2004, 10:41 AM: Message edited by: Zane Marlowe ]

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quote:

Originally posted by Cmdr Chavik:

I get it and I don't. It's like email battle chess where the battle determines whether the move was successful or not.

Give the man a cigar.

This was my concept from the beginning because people were wandering around the MP servers with nothing to do, having nice conversations with people they should have been shooting .

Well now they've got something to do and their victories can be recorded by the spread of their influence on the map.

ZM out.

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Guest Remo Williams

Over the years we've been waiting here for MP I've been thinking about a different approach that I'm gearing Prime toward.

Will be capturing our stats to primefleet.com and the other fleet's stats will be displayed at Galcom online. I'm sure your FC will fill you in on the rest once all the rule are worked out between the Fleet Commanders, documented, and sent to the SC to be approved in the next few weeks.

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