21 replies to this topic

[Supreme Cmdr]

This thread is for the discussion of the fleet (grouping) related features of the game. I need to know - based on how it works in other MMO games you guys are playing - the best way for us to approach this.

Particularly in the following areas:

• How to create/join/leave a fleet
  
• How to determine a fleet leader and what tools he has to administer the fleet

I have a vague idea of how corporations work in Eve, but IMO it is needlessly convoluted - so we need something a bit more intuitive.

Discuss!!

[ShoHashi]

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1.How to create/join/leave a fleet

I would like to suggest that you use the existing main fleet names as they are now. Partly because their histories are already fleshed out in the community. One exception to this could be the Raiders or Indies. Those two could name their own fleets, ie. Death Hand's Raiders, First Galactic Trader Corporation, etc.

With the exception of the main fleets, there would have to be a certain amount of members (similar to WoW's guild charters) for the fleet to be "activated." That would partly keep lots of fleets appearing and then becoming inactive as people decide to move on, etc. I guess what I'm saying is that you probably wouldn't want a bunch of fleets existing and no one in them. Heck, maybe even through in credits to the mix. Probably need to discuss this more.

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2.How to determine a fleet leader and what tools he has to administer the fleet

Seniority in the fleet as well as voting are possibly a couple of things that could be used to determine a Fleet Leader (will have to give that some more thought). However, a Fleet Leader should also have the time to administer his fleet. As far as tools are concerned, the Fleet Leader should be able to be able to post announcements for his fleet somewhere, be able to kick fleet members for some sort of disciplinary reason, be able to create and name "Wings" to his fleet using the same idea I offered above with a certain amount of people required to fill it. Example...if I had a fleet with 6 people in it and to create a Wing that required 3 people to fill it, I would have enough people to do it if it required a minimum of 3 people to "activate" it.

Just a few ideas. Will post some more as I can flesh them out.

-Sho

[DennyMala]

I can say that a really good managing system for this aspect of games is implemented in a browser simulation on the Star Wars franchise: The Star Wars Combine (www.swcombine.com)

Factions (the equivalent of our fleets) have a leader and a secondo in command with very similar capabilities, but they can also assign privileges in the variuos area of fleet managing as inventory (seing only, managing or even selling), members (to be able to give and revoke privileges, ranks and other relevant info) and so on.

Here we'll probably have way less areas a a fleet inventory of ships, good and items won't probably exist so it may be even more simple to iron out.

Basically, you can have a fleet leader and a second in command that are able to manage all tools and they give them the possibility to give a tool to other fleet members (like wing leaders or other staff officers); this way the fleet managing will require less time to the leader and be dispersed on a comand staff like we did in the past and like in real organizations.

This will be a flexible way that will allow a leader configure the kind of fleet managing he wants.

[canshow]

You could also add a tax system of some sort where the people in the fleet have to pay like, 1% of their balance everyday or periodically. Good way to earn money for the fleet, which brings me to another point.

Give the fleets bank funds in which the leader, and people who are given the privilege, can withdraw out. And anyone can put money in anytime other than taxes.

Now, if you made the trading system flexible enough, I.E. credits are always valuable throughout the game and are always used, and money never becomes worthless, then this should work.

*that was just something to add to fleets since we are talking about them*


Now as for joining a fleet, you could implement one of the following:

1) Public fleet option - If you request to join, you're automatically accepted without fleet review.

2) Private Fleet option - You can request to join, like with a little box where you can tell about yourself/what the fleet wants to know about you before you're let in.


Now, you could also add a fee to join a fleet, or the fleet leaders can. Or, you could add a fee to create a fleet.

Now, assuming there are already default fleets, players can make sub-fleets under a specific default fleet (if there are anyway, like GalCom, EarthCom, etc.. This is probably rubbish.)




For managing the fleet, you could try what previous people suggested.

1) Set ranks, custom ranks, and have certain privileges come with those ranks like withdrawing out of a fleet fund, or w/e.

2) Seniority. If people have been in the fleet for a certain amount of time, or contributed so much to the fleet, they gain an automatic rank/privilege, with the fleet leader always being on top.

3) Voting out the leader. Now obviously, the fleet leader should be able to kick members, but probably not when people are voting for a new leader.

4) Approval system. Have a council with-in the fleet, that could be consisted of 4-10 members. They can accept new applicants, decide whether the fleet leader has the authority to do something. Just like the supreme court system in the U.S. or the senate. The fleet leader picks the people, and let them do their thing.

This eases stress of the leader, and lets other fleet members get involved with the fleet. Just like how the Maya had Tribal chiefs, and then Nobles under them to do certain tasks.

5) Command staff. Each person controls their own wing/members.
a. People could request to be transferred to a wing.

[Kalshion]

In response to what Shohashi suggested. I don't feel comfortable with a voting system that is to be used to determine the fleet leader. This is because it can be exploited by a group of players to gain control over a fleet that has few numbers. In short, a group of players could join - start up a vote for fleet leader rank - and then get voted in because all of their friends joined with them(and perhaps out-number the original members). Granted, this might not be much of a problem for larger fleets. But it is a concern I had, I know one game did have this system - don't remember the name - but I do know the developers quickly removed it from the game after only a month (there were groups of people joining guilds, and then taking them over)

The thing is, only fleet lead should be allowed to start up a vote on a new leader, not regular members. It gives regular members way to much power, and to much power leads to abuse.

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I like Canshow's idea, a private and public option for this. Most fleets though (such as Prime) will probably use the private (I don't want any idiots, degenerates, or fools in my fleet) so I plan on being VERY picky with recruitment once BCO is out. Of course, if I've known the person then it won't be that hard to accept them into the fleet, but for those I don't know - it would take awhile.

The other is to give permission rights based on ranks or titles within the fleet itself. For example, recruits aren't allowed to access certain fleet options (they are recruits after all, and thus haven't based training or trials) while full members have full access to all fleets privs.

Likewise, the natural ability to throw people out of the fleet is always a must.

Perhaps some eye-candy idea's as well but I will leave those out for the time beinging

[ShoHashi]

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In response to what Shohashi suggested. I don't feel comfortable with a voting system that is to be used to determine the fleet leader. This is because it can be exploited by a group of players to gain control over a fleet that has few numbers. In short, a group of players could join - start up a vote for fleet leader rank - and then get voted in because all of their friends joined with them(and perhaps out-number the original members). Granted, this might not be much of a problem for larger fleets. But it is a concern I had, I know one game did have this system - don't remember the name - but I do know the developers quickly removed it from the game after only a month (there were groups of people joining guilds, and then taking them over)

All I did was throw some ideas out there and I did say that this would have to have some more thought. That's pretty much the whole reason of this thread....discussion. Whether or not you (SC) decide to go with this is entirely up to you, it is your game after all! We're just pitching ideas!

However, Kalshion did bring up a good point with the possible exploitation of the voting system...at least for picking a Fleet Leader.

I do like Denny's idea of a Second in Command (Co-Leader). That would be good especially if the Fleet Leader goes MIA.

-Sho

[Kalshion]

Didn't mean to sound like I was snapping at ya Sho! It was 2 am in the morning when I wrote that so I was half asleep =(

But yes, Denny's idea is a good one.

[Ben Zwycky]

Well, all fleets are going to need some sort of base of operations, so maybe a requirement for creating a fleet would be having enough experience points and resources to construct a starbase/starstation, the one constructing it then having the option of creating a fleet and automatically becoming it's leader. Perhaps this would make the initial hurdle too much (or maybe not, if you don't want to encourage the creation of lots of new fleets but make it possible for those determined enough to get there). As you have it, stations are resupplied by NPC traders, you could have it that fleet-owned stations and bases also earn some galcreds for their fleet with each trader visit (an extra incentive to protect the NPC economy)

How to join: have a 'fleet' tab somewhere in your profile, and clicking on it takes you to fleet-specific info (internal message board, which other members are online on your server etc), if you're not in a fleet, it gives you the option of searching through the list of current fleets and applying to join one via PM.

Administrative tools: Assigning positions within the fleet and creating subdivisions/wings within it, he initially holds all official fleet positions until he assigns them to someone else, and can take them back or reassign them to someone else whenever he wants.

Possible Fleet Positions that the leader can assign:

Second In Command: Has same powers as Fleet Leader, so can take over in his absence.

Fleet Admin: can create new ranks within the fleet/edit existing ranks and their associated privileges.

Fleet Admissions Officer: Decides whether applications to join the fleet are accepted or not, can issue invites to players to join the fleet.

Fleet Acquisitions Officer: Oversees Fleet finances and reserve vessels (if you want additional fleet craft that can be assigned to members with sufficient EP to use them, perhaps not)

As for ranks, these can be of two types, those assigned individually by the fleet leader/SIC/Admin and those earned automatically by having sufficient EP. Possible privileges that can be associated with those ranks:

Being able to see on the navigation map where other fleet members are on the server/where all fleet assets are

Being able to use up to a certain amount of fleet finances per day for acquiring deployable assets (for fleet base construction).

I had some other ideas for privileges, but can't think of them now, maybe I'll remember later.

[ShoHashi]

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Didn't mean to sound like I was snapping at ya Sho! It was 2 am in the morning when I wrote that so I was half asleep =(

No, no...I wasn't snapping at you, Kalshion! I prolly could have worded it a bit better and prevented the misunderstanding.

-Sho

[DennyMala]

That was not my idea but it is the system of a game I already play (web based).

That system allows you to create the sort of command structure you want.

You want to be an evil dictator? You can, no second in command and no privileges to anyone. You're the only one with the ball in his hands.

You want a military structured organization? You can. A leader a co-leader with a staff of officers each with the same or different areas of privileges and authority (all customizable for each privilege and each person).

I can provide some more in depth datas getting the text from the rules pages of the game or answering direct questions. Ans if you're interested and I'll reply.

[Quazar]

Many of the ideas presented thus far are in line with my main goal:

Give Fleet Leaders the freedom to innovate without limit, and the ones who implement the good strategies will retain members best.

If a Fleet Leader can run his fleet any way he wants (whether it's creating new ranks, new staff positions, new financial channels, entirely new privileges, or even extend the game interface itself), then the smart FL will build a system that rewards his members for loyalty. The success of a Fleet is not in some fleeting in-game score, but in the depth, commitment, longevity and self-satisfaction of it's membership.

[canshow]

Nathan Brazil, on Jan 3 2010, 02:33 PM, said:

2) Any fleet needs a base of operations, therefor a prerequisite of creating a fleet should be the presence of a fleet base unit. (orbiting base, perhaps a carrier unit)

The base should be where, IMO, any transactions (including messages) should be administered.

Or, you could make it anywhere in the space parameters (i mean, you can't make the base SOOO far away, that it's impossible to reach it)

That way, it's a little more difficult and less obvious to find a spacestation. But then again, this is based on Derek's games, so it'll prob be around a planet/moon :/

[Kalshion]

I believe Derek already stated that Stations can only be built around a planet or moon, no where else.

[teknocack]

1. How to create/join/leave a fleet:

I like Ben and others suggestion that creating/forming a Fleet will require a Base of Operations. This base, in turn should require some sort of skill, experience, and wealth element to obtain/build. Joining fleets should be left at the discretion of the Fleet Leader

2. How to determine a fleet leader and what tools he has to administer the fleet:

The first part of this question is answered by the first statement in answer to the first question above. *whew* As far as tools go, I only can state some of the obvious like:

• Promotion and demotion
  
• Ability to determine eligibility of fleet applicants
  
• Record keeping/database tools
  
• or at least access to the raw data needed to keep records

I am sure there are many more suggestions out there on this topic. Have your say now old and noobs alike

[usrevenge]

I play Eve Online.
there is a fleet advert system based on Standing, and alliance/corporation status ( a corporation is a guild, alliance is an alliance of guilds)..
basically one person is boss, and he can invite people, and have auto join for people he trust. people can also request to join fleet.
max fleet member is around 120. fleets are divided like a hierarchy in a buisness
Boss is the top spot
boss apoints wing commanders and squad leaders.

the leaders can provide a bonus to shields, armor, ect.

[Supreme Cmdr]

Kalshion, on 06 January 2010 - 03:40 AM, said:

I believe Derek already stated that Stations can only be built around a planet or moon, no where else.

Players cannot build starbases or stations. In fact, you can't build anything in space. On planets, you can build small outposts known as FOBs. I don't envision them being larger than 200 sq. feet.

[Supreme Cmdr]

usrevenge, on 04 April 2011 - 06:58 PM, said:

I play Eve Online.
there is a fleet advert system based on Standing, and alliance/corporation status ( a corporation is a guild, alliance is an alliance of guilds)..
basically one person is boss, and he can invite people, and have auto join for people he trust. people can also request to join fleet.
max fleet member is around 120. fleets are divided like a hierarchy in a buisness
Boss is the top spot
boss apoints wing commanders and squad leaders.

the leaders can provide a bonus to shields, armor, ect.

We're looking to do something similar, but not as in-depth or time consuming as the Eve system.

[Badman]

KISS
1) Request
2) Vote initialially accepted by concencus from whomever is onboard / online in command (for temporary membership ... i.e. probation period)
3) Final vote passed by Captain (Commander) and other key vested interested parties (behavior in probation period is accounted for)

[Kalshion]

Supreme Cmdr, on 05 April 2011 - 07:30 AM, said:

Kalshion, on 06 January 2010 - 03:40 AM, said:

I believe Derek already stated that Stations can only be built around a planet or moon, no where else.

Players cannot build starbases or stations. In fact, you can't build anything in space. On planets, you can build small outposts known as FOBs. I don't envision them being larger than 200 sq. feet.

Then I stand corrected! Thanks boss