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Guest Mechwarrior

Dear Commanders:

I amgoing to put this plain and simple:

All I was doing was posting an invitation to create a small group of battle cruisers to play in the game. The main Purpose was to help newbies get a hold of the sequal by joining a small group. I ment no harm to Mr. Smart, the game, the sequal or any of the commanders. If any newbies wish to join this group go ahead and join we'll be able to help you out. As soon as you get the hang of things you can come and go as you please. We call ourselves mercenaries so people will hire the newbies and let them get a hold of the universe. We are battlecruisers because odds are that ill be the default ship for all players.

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Mechwarrior of the UCV Black Panther.

"Chaos comes from the depths of our souls, victory through our actions. With these we rule the galaxy unchallenged."

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Re: Mercenaries vs. Raiders.

I think some of you read and watch way too much fiction. Historically, mercenary commanders fielded entire armys. Small, squad level merc groups are mostly popular fiction. (Check some Swiss history.)

OTOH, raiders have historically been nothing but small groups of outlaws.

Turning to seafaring as more analogous to the BC universe, mercenaries would correspond to privateers (both operating under a government sanction) while raiders correspond to pirates (both operating outside the law). Collectively, a nation's privateers are correctly considered a "fleet" operating under the authority of the nation granting the letter of marquis to the individual commanders. Thus history discusses the Nova Scotia privateering fleet of 1790-1805, the American privateer fleet, etc.

Pirates rarely formed fleets. I think neither Blackbeard nor Morgan ever had more than seven or eight ships at their command, with half those being captured prizes hauling the booty.

[it doesn't take much thought to see that a GALCOM Commander in FF mode is little different than an American, British, Canadian or French privateer operating in the 1800s; hell, the instructions read like a Letter of Marquis and Reprisal. Too bad the WC series copped that title, it makes talking about the privateering aspect of BC3K sound fishy.]

As far as BC3020 is concerned, there one overwhelming problem with the idea of a mercenary fleet: Who is going to hire them? If they are operating independently outside of a government's sanction then they are NOT mercenaries--they ARE raiders.

Derek did the NPC mercenary caste correctly, when they are generated they side with somebody who is already there. "They are part of the auto-generate code and will by default be allied to the nearest fleet which they are created near."

Essentially, if you go into BC3020 as a Terran Mercenary, you shouldn't legally be able to fire a single shot until you are either attacked, or some Gammulan Trader hires you to escort him through Droidan space. In which case, you become aligned with the Gammulans and opposed to whoever their enemies are, at least for the duration of the contract.

This indicates to me that you will spend alot of time sitting around in spaceports with a "For Hire" sign taped to your BC's hull, cause I doubt many other players will see a need to hire a merc to do anything.

Raiders, OTOH, get to attack whoever they want and everybody attacks them. A much more satisfing, and active, role.

------------------

Cmdr Pherrett

GCV-STRATOS

Official BC3K Tester

[email protected]

"Mercenaries and auxiliaries are useless and dangerous; and if one holds his state based on these arms, he will stand neither firm nor safe; for they are disunited, ambitious and without discipline, unfaithful, valiant before friends, cowardly before enemies; they have neither the fear of God nor fidelity to men, and destruction is deferred only so long as the attack is; for in peace one is robbed by them, and in war by the enemy."

-- Nicolo Machiavelli, The Prince, 1515

[This message has been edited by Lynx Pherrett (edited 08-05-99).]

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Yes..

De Sylva, lets meet to discuss this. Please give us a time to meet buddy :-)

I agree 100% with Pherret here. Lets discuss this too :-)

------------------

Fleet Commander

Daniel "Tac" Londono

GCV Usagi

=Wraith Fleet=

"Hard,Fast, Furious...FIRST!"

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Lynx, I have no doubt you are historically correct. But I do not think that a mercenary must be government sanctioned. Something in that just goes against what "I think" everyone thinks a merc is. Basically a gun for hire. NOT just any gun for hire though. A gun for hire with loyalty for the duration of the contract as you stated but not necessarily principles. No matter how small a group you have if they hire for anything (protection, first strike, etc.) and remain loyal to the contract they would be mercs would they not?

Raiders are thieves. Pure and simple. That point I don't think is being disputed.

Lets say we are best friends and we both have BC3020. We decide to join the server and play against others. We whup their rearends. Not wanting to model in-game comms (since I don't know how they will be) lets then say we get an email saying "Geez, you guys were good, who are you?". Well, feeling awfully proud of ourselves we respond "we are the Baldheaded, Bearded, Bobba Fetts (SP?)" Are we then part of the game universe? Absolutely not. No way no how. But we can still be an offserver (offline makes it sound like you are playing singleplayer) group of friends who have a nickname.

That is what I believe all that Mech wanted. A group of people who choose to play together on whichever server they get to. There will not be any official bearing to the game but nothing is stopping them from nicking themselves the "Baldheaded, Bearded, Bobba Fetts". That I think can not be stopped.

Discussion only and no hard feelings Lynx. I am not trying to inject anything into the game. But I think Mech only wanted an off server nick.

Edit in: Comment on nick sounded trite. An offserver nick, a group of friends who enjoy playing the game together and can learn from each other (per Mech's post on newbies) is what I think he wanted. Nothing official. Just a group of friends. That's how I see it. DeSylva got it with his "clan" thing. Mech denied "clan" so perhaps an "official" unofficial *G* moniker for groups of friends is warranted. smile.gif

Squad Chavik, We gonna get ya. wink.gif

Commander Chavik

"you know the rest."

[This message has been edited by Charles Lindsey (edited 08-05-99).]

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Hi all.

Wow, I leave this for a few hours and look what happens! *grin*.

First of all, Mechwarrior, let me reassure you that I certainly was not pointing any fingers at you. I'm afraid the discussion did get a bit heated, friend, and I'm sorry - but we tend to get that way on here. *grin*. No hard feelings, I hope, and I hope you won't get chased off the thread.

Now Chavik pretty much got what I was suggesting down pat. I was suggesting a model similar to the Quake Clan model, where a group of friends who regularly play online together create for themselves a name, a logo, etc. They publish a web page. They become known amongst the gaming community. But in my mind, the main difference is that they don't count in the actual, "official" history of the game, like Fleets do. And I think that, forgetting for the moment the name they are assigned, whether it is a clan, a gang, a squadron, a shuffle, or any other bloody tag you can attach to them (*grin*), this is what Mechwarrior was aiming for as well. I quote:

quote:

Just relax..... I only wanted to organize a group of people who, in the sequal, would come together ONLY online.


Now, I don't know how we can police this - after all, as Chavik said, anyone can call themselves anything they want, we're not thought police - but Derek has stepped in (I didn't notice his post before I made mine, sorry if some of my post simply repeated what he said) and we will all benefit from a chance to discuss the issues involved in opening up new fleets, etc. I suppose, taking an analogy from another of my favourite games, StarCraft, we could provide the basic framework for the fleet structure in the manual and allow the players some leeway to customise; ie. a StarCraft multiplayer who wants to stick with the established universe can become a unit of Alpha Squadron or a swarm from Garm Brood, and customise to a certain extent even though they are part of a larger group. But this will all come out in our discussion.

I look forward to resolving this issue. Mechwarrior, no hard feelings - I know you had good intentions, the fact that you thought enough about forming your own fleet of mercenaries shows me that. A lot of people who want to start a fleet don;t even get that far. Stick with us, I'll make sure that your mercs have a place in 3020 AD. But just watch the mass mailings in future, ok? *big grin*.

Tac, I'm not online much for chats - usually only a quick forum check and mail. However, I do spend about an hour online from 6:30am to 7:30 am on weekdays, Autralian Standard Eastern Time - I think we're +10, but not sure. I use Yahoo Pager, and my ID is m_jones_SRN. If you want to grab that, and get online at that time (don't know how convenient it will be) we can get together.

Antti, unfortunately, as Derek said, there weren't enough spaces in the testing team this time around. I know for a fact you are near the top of the list for the next sweep of testers, though. However, you ARE a fleet leader, no one can deny that, and I believe Orion Fleet is the largest player controlled fleet, as well as the second oldest - so of course, you would have a place in any discussions about fleet issues. Orion fleet is a well respected group - at least, it is in my books. We all remember the sacrifice you made during the Gam War thread. Have you checked your post to the "New BC Testers" thread in the General Discussion forum? A lot of people are worried about you, including me.

Yours,

------------------

Commander DeSylva

GCV First Light ISS01 -=- ISS Fleet Coordinator

www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arena/9206/iss/

Official BC3K Tester and Blind Man With Sleeves award winner

"Serve - with honour."

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People I want to make conversation and have a live fulfilling time.Now I am a newbie in a small way I have had this game for a year but have had a few problems with it that keeps me from playing it BUT THT IS NOT THE POINT AND PLEASE DON'T TELL ME THAT I SHOULD GO TO THE FAQ BEACUSE it is not what I want to talk about.Now I am or (was) a profetional game player working for Nintendo but just playing game's to there limites and beyond and I can beat (CURRENT) games that have storie lines or arround thous lines.BUT I am saying that I am a very experenced game player and I would HATE to see my fellow Commanders and Game players/Roleplayers get tangled up in this like now.

I have and play Everquest and that is the BEST type of RPG that I have ever played beacuse you can only play it online WITH OTHER REAL PEOPLE so that makes it more to life I won't tell you anymore just IF YOU CAN find out for yourself.This argument is going to get out of hand and that IS POINTLESS!I have serched for games that you could make your own story line and play forever and this is one of them I mean bc3020ad I am shure you all know that.

I want to see friends and not NOT enemies even if they are enemies in game than they should still be friends online.If any one of you know of or even have Everquest than please see my point beacuse from this you will learn what will need to come with a multiplayer universe like bc3020ad.I do please what to here comment's about this and make FRIENDLY conversation.Pationts IS a vertue to ALL PEOPLE who have a soul!!!

I play games beacuse that are some other life that can be fun BUt they can still be terened into EVIL (LIKE NOW).I might not be the best of typers but I know what I say and it to be true.I hope my felow Commanders do to.Now please let's have conversation and be the BEST fo friends.

PS:please argue about who thanks who will win and not argue about somting like this.

------------------

A fool chatters as the wiseman listens...

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Chavik, to respond in reverse order...

I agree with you about what Mechwarrior probably wants. In Starsiege (not tribes) the player setup had slots for player name and squad name. There were probably 30 or so squads formed during the beta period, some were well organized and lasting, others probably never had more than one or two people and disappeared.

On an open server, anybody can log into the game and proclaim "I am Golgoth of the Skull of Death Fleet." It's gonna happen. And if he's got three friends, maybe they're gonna want to be Skull of Death too. The question is, is it worth making a big deal over it?

Probably not, if you look at how recruiting and trying to get recruited will probably work. Seems to me that after a certian size, fleets will tend to get real picky about who they let in. Day-one newbies are gonna be IOD fodder for everyone, unless the GALCOM Prime fleet designation is a forced default and carries some weight--in which case entire servers of players may wind up with only NPCs to use as targets, unless they decide to do a little teamkilling.

If the logon has a text field entry for, say, "fleet affiliation" then people are gonna type in whatever they want. If there is just a dropdown listing "official" fleets, you're gonna have to patch the game or the server for any new fleet that becomes official.

So, what do newbies do until they become good enough to get recruited by an official fleet? Will they even stick with the game long enough to gain skills that attract a recruitment offer if they get wiped out by somebody practically every time they launch from a starstation?

I don't know, but I suspect were gonna find three things: 1) official fleets recognized as integral to the game universe, 2) transient fleets formed by like-minded individuals or transplanted clans/squads from other games, and 3) transitional fleets that start unsanctioned but attract sufficient members and organize in coherent fashion and eventually become officially recognized. I don't think it's worth worrying about policing #2, especially if such efforts end up hampering the growth of #3.

I'd say Mechwarrior is jumping the gun a bit, I think MP needs to be a reality before you start recruiting newbies. But when that time comes, there probably should be a forum just for that--and not the RP forum.

And that may be what's ticked so many people off. I don't think Mechwarrior realized that the RP fleets were/is/are a long-term semi-offline role-playing enterprise. It's like walking into day 573 of a D&D group and saying "Ok, I'm a 10th level spell-caster and I just blasted the dragon, rescued the princess, and released you all from the evil ogre." You'd be pelted with pretzels and pizza crusts before being kicked down the stairs. smile.gif

My suggestion to Mechwarrior would be to wait till he gets his hands on a copy of BC3020, then post a message in the General Discussion area saying "Hey, any of you want to fly and fight together to get some experience, we can call ourselves..." Until that time, the idea of unofficial but endorsed fleet's, squadrons, clans, or whatever seems a bit ridiculous.

- - - - -

"Government sanctioned" was a kind of shorthand. Mercenaries are warfighters (whether competent or not), war is political in nature, politics is the province of governments (whether currently recognized or not)--anybody who hires mercenaries to conduct war on their behalf is acting as a political leader (i.e. government).

IOW, who the government is depends upon who eventually wins. The King of Spain hires a German army to attack Portgual, Portgual hires a Swiss army for defense. Both mercenary armies are acting under the sanction of the government that hired them. It only becomes questionable when the employer is a government-in-exile or a an upstart intent on overthrowing the existing order. If the upstart wins, then the mercenaries he hired were acting under a "government sanction" because the upstart now is the government.

The history of warfare and mercenary forces did not begin with the filming of The Dogs of War, The Magnificent Seven, or even Kurisawa's The Seven Sumarai. The idea of a small band of hired guns is an excellent plot device for a novel or movie, but it is a rarity in the actual annals of warfare. A goodly portion of Napoleon's forces were mercenaries--instead of 3 or 4 guys, try 3 or 4 hundred, or 3 or 4 thousand. Prior to the modern era, raising an army meant hiring mercenaries in regmental size chunks, from officers down to pikemen.

So, contemporary books and movies aside, if the Empirians are going to hire mercenaries to augment their forces in a war against the Vesperons, the safest strategy would be to hire a mercenary fleet to attack the Vesperons while using their own fleet to defend Empirian space.

And, of course, that should only be a temporary stop-gap measure. Capable mercenary forces are a dangerous tool for the wielder, they have a tendency to turn and bite the hand that feeds them. To quote Machiavelli again:

quote:

I wish to demonstrate further the infelicity of these arms. The mercenary captains are either capable men or they are not; if they are, you cannot trust them, because they always aspire to their own greatness, either by oppressing you, who are their master, or others contrary to your intentions; but if the captain is not skilful, you are ruined in the usual way...

Of ancient mercenaries, for example, there are the Carthaginians, who were oppressed by their mercenary soldiers after the first war with the Romans, although the Carthaginians had their own citizens for captains. After the death of Epaminondas, Philip of Macedon was made captain of their soldiers by the Thebans, and after victory he took away their liberty.

Duke Filippo being dead, the Milanese enlisted Francesco Sforza against the Venetians, and he, having overcome the enemy at Caravaggio, allied himself with them to crush the Milanese, his masters.

------------------

Cmdr Pherrett

GCV-STRATOS

Official BC3K Tester

[email protected]

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"

-- George Santayana

"You got to change your evil ways"

--Carlos Santana

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Guest Sebastian Vauban

Wow...we're rally creating a new society here...I'm sure the same thing would be discussed by real intergalactic governments... smile.gif Neato...

------------------

Commander Sebastian Le Prestre Vauban

GCV Stabat Mater, Orion Fleet

GALCOM SpecOps Division

"Let your plans be dark and

impenetrable as night, and when

you move, fall like a

thunderbolt."

Sun Tzu, The Art of War 6:19

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This is a serious thread and if I see one more off-topic rant like the ones from Chris and Sebastian, I'm deleting them.

DeSylva and Lynx Pherett are accurate in their testimony and this is what I had in mind. I just do not have the time to screw around with this right now. So, I will monitor this thread and will refer to it when the time comes to decide how to do it.

Until then, DeSylva's model for creating new branches from existing fleets (depending on what the users want), is now in effect. In the case of Mechwarrior and a squadron not based on an existing fleet, I will wait to hear DeSylva's suggestion further. Until then, the permission for Mechwarrior to proceed, remains denied and on hold until I get a good proposal.

Also, the term clan, is hereby outlawed in this universe. Fleets, Squadrons and Wings, are the norm and this is the structure that should be used.

Remember also that you do not have to play BC:3020AD multiplayer in a craft. Because there is first/third person control of personnel, you can also log on as a marine, medic or engineer (class based) or as an ATV driver. This restricts your engagement to the surface (you will get to pick a planet/moon based on the server you joined) so you can run around blowing shit up (marine), treating your injured comrades (medic) or repairing destroyed units (engineer).

In BC3K Online, you will also be able to jump in an drive an ATV unit if you find an empty one.

So, this means that you can also have squads that are planetary based only. I think DeSylva and co already had this structure somewhere. So, you and some friends could have "Interstellar Infantry Division 1" or something like that and are part of say, the Orion Fleet. In which case you may have the air/space/surface branches of the Orion Fleet, engaged in space/plantary combat against say a group from the Spectre Fleet. I've discuss this before in the past, and I think you folks forget. This is how it is designed and this is how it is being implemented.

In BC3K Online, if the server is running a 'world' that contains space and planetary regions, they will be active and updated at the same time and players will be able to transition from other to the other (if you are flying a craft of course).

In BC:3020AD, you will only be able to play either in space or on a planet (depending on the unit you choose to control) without being able to transition from space to planet and vice versa. This is why voice communications (as well as the normal typing) with different channels, will be supported so that you can still communicate, though you can't see each other if you are in different regions. You will also get real-time updates from the server so that you know what the heck is going on in either region you are not playing in. Imagine a game that just ended in which some newbies were supposed to take out a base on the planet surface and they didn't but the guys in fighters in space were able to take out all the opposing force. You could lose the game (at final count) because the guys on the surface screwed up. This could also happen the other way around. In BC:3030AD, you could potentially fly to the surface and give your friends, running around as marines, ground cover from a fighter etc. A virtual battlefield. If you've played Tribes, then you get the idea. But like all things the BC3K does, I plan on going overboard and creating a truly immersive multplayer world as I have the single-player.

Anyway, Desylva, if you still have the fleet, squad etc, heirarchy somewhere, please put it together with a proposal (as the one you listed here) in a file and send to me via email when you have it all sorted out.

Before I forget, Antti, when the call was made for you to sign up for beta testing, you were not available. This is your problem, not mine. I put Lynx in your slop. Apart from that, a few minutes ago, I ran a scan of your posts and you do not meet the criteria for being a good tester/assistant because helpful posts to newbies and vets alike, are few and far between. This is the reason why I picked Lynx and will be sorting out my new list when the game goes Beta sometime later this year. Also, it is not so much about the quantity of the posts but the quality. Lynx, Canusa etc and other people here, help each other and are generally involved in the activities of this site. This helps reduce my involvement and I don't have to worry about responding to everything that I see because I know that someone will, in my stead. So, this has nothing to do with your status as Fleet Leader and you are the only exception to the rule that fleet leaders are all testers. Sorry, but thats the way it is. Why was Tac the exception (he was also absent during the casting call)? Simple. He has been helpful and I did get a response back the day I realized he was AWOL.

[This message has been edited by Supreme Cmdr (edited 08-06-99).]

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Guest Mech3

Dont worry... Some horrible accident involving a bowl of chilly, My screen name and a radioactive piece of cheese disabled my password. I made a new e-mail address.

I'm still Mechwarrior though.

Now that things have cooled off I am going to ask again if anyone wants to join my squadron. Well?

------------------

Commander Mechwarrior of the UCV Black Panther...

"Chaos come from the depths of our souls, victory through our actions. With these we rule the galaxy unchalenged." Leader of the Soon-to-be Black Panther Mercenary Squadron.

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Guest Ron Wallin

Mech, why shouldn't I just delete your post? (it's rhetorical: you think about it but don't answer) When DS writes, you read, especially when what he's written is a mere two messages up.

quote:

Until then, the permission for Mechwarrior to proceed, remains
denied
and on hold until I get a good proposal.

Mech, do not post in the RP forum concerning this issue until it gets resolved!

------------------

Cmdr. Akira

ICV Nevermore

Spectre, Command Staff

Base Commander, The Dojo

Official Tester

Battlecruiser Series

[This message has been edited by Ron Wallin (edited 08-06-99).]

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DANG! Get sick for a couple of days and look what happens! Who let this cat out of the bag? DeSylva, You going to be able to get it back in that gunny sack? If you need help in recovering the Fleet Marine Organization, or Squadron Levels, I might be some assistance here. Just give me a shout! As to New Fleets, thought that issue was secured LONG ago! The SC adeptly closed that issue about 6 months ago, and said that he would resurect it when MP became available. 'Till then it was a dead issue. I believe that, at that time, He charged US with the responsibility to keep it between the ditches, With DeSylva to run roughshod over the process, and see that it was kept fair, but firm. Right Michael? Well, I guess it's time for us to earn our keep Gentlemen. If we need a meeting of Fleet Leaders, Coordinators, Command Staff.... Then "Lets Get It On!" Name the Time and Place. I'll grab my Command Staff and we'll show up. smile.gif

------------------

Rattler, Spectre, Insurgent One

Official BC3K Tester

[email protected]

ICQ 12894104

Just Doin' What I can with What I got!

[This message has been edited by Rattler (edited 08-06-99).]

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Alright. I've never been one to make executive decisions, but I guess I'm going to have to start because there is way too much bad blood in this thread. Ron, could you please close it.

I won't have any newbie being attacked or driven off this forum. Mechwarrior's continued attempts to recruit may be ill advised but they serve one vital purpose - to highlight a problem that has to be dealt with before 3020AD comes out.

This discussion is to be taken off-forum, and onto email, where myself, Ron, and the other RP liasons can debate ways to try and incorporate the existing, set Fleet structure with the flood of squadrons, etc. that are going to be being put forward when 3020AD comes out.

I want this dealt with. I'd been saving this announcement, but I guess it's time - in a little under three weeks, I'll be leaving for a practical placement that is going to last the rest of the year. My internet access (including email) will be sporadic at best. I want this whole issue sorted out before I leave, because otherwise there is a very good chance I won't be able to do anything about it until the end of the year, if then. So any loose ends with the RP situation, I'd love to be tied up by then.

As soon as we have reached some kind of resolution we will inform you using this forum. Until then, this discussion is closed.

------------------

Commander DeSylva

GCV First Light ISS01 -=- ISS Fleet Coordinator

www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arena/9206/iss/

Official BC3K Tester and Blind Man With Sleeves award winner

"Serve - with honour."

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