Guest Posted September 30, 2001 Report Share Posted September 30, 2001 This was so funny, I had to share!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Avatara Posted September 30, 2001 Report Share Posted September 30, 2001 I want to say, "Dude...that's wrong..." but...it is kind of funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parias Posted September 30, 2001 Report Share Posted September 30, 2001 Hahahahah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menchise Posted September 30, 2001 Report Share Posted September 30, 2001 *groan* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supreme Cmdr Posted September 30, 2001 Report Share Posted September 30, 2001 LOL!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Epsilon 5 Posted September 30, 2001 Report Share Posted September 30, 2001 LOL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rico Jansen Posted September 30, 2001 Report Share Posted September 30, 2001 LOL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 30, 2001 Report Share Posted September 30, 2001 Hehehehehe, very good.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menchise Posted September 30, 2001 Report Share Posted September 30, 2001 quote:Originally posted by Rm: Hehehehehe, very good.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Epsilon 5 Posted September 30, 2001 Report Share Posted September 30, 2001 quote:Originally posted by Menchise: Hehe. Cute smiley. Yeah, I LOOOOOVE red X'es in a white box Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soback Posted September 30, 2001 Report Share Posted September 30, 2001 I have been following pilots requests for guns in the cockpits and they have been denied. Which is a good thing. Fired gun can mean broken avionics(bad), pressurized oxygen bottle might be hit or something else that can blow(very bad), or, I am not a mechanic but if the bullet makes a hole in the airframe the pressure difference between 45,000feet and pressurized airplane (they are usually pressurized to 8,000feet pressure altitude) is huge so there might be a possibility of structural failure which means the whole plane coming appart. Now they have a new proposal for having stun guns, that one I like. Seems better than having nothing at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 30, 2001 Report Share Posted September 30, 2001 Soback, we need to have a talk, Not sure where you are getting your facts, but they are wrong. We can discuss privately if you wish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soback Posted September 30, 2001 Report Share Posted September 30, 2001 Also if anyone remembers a leer jet that had explosive decompression last year. Everyone died. It happened because the pressure release valve was defective and a bullet hole will pretty much have the same effect. After that you have only about 5 seconds to put on your oxygen mask or you pass out, and while you are putting it on you have to deal with a pressure drop (from 8,000 to 45,000), a temperature drop from 70s to -60s and that means that all the moisture in the air will crystalize and become ice in a matter of seconds (first breat or two gotta really hurt) you will probably pass out just because of that even if you get you oxygen mask on. So, a hole in the plane is a horrible thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 30, 2001 Report Share Posted September 30, 2001 A bullet hole in a large Jumbo jet WILL NOT cause explosive decompression, PERIOD... This is a FACT, ask any aeronautical engineer.Airplanes leak air all the time, and the fact is, if a bullet does go through a plane, it is easily fixed with DUCT TAPE!! Yes, I said duct tape. Also, pilots would not carry hollow points they would carry what are called fragmenting rounds, they can go through a perpetrator or terrorist, but not the skin of the aircraft.Check it out if you'd like, but I am correct. I will not fly again until A: the pilot is armed, or at least one of the crew, or B: when a federal CWP(concealed weapons permit) is issued that allows those that have it to carry thier own personal firearm on aircraft, after extensive training.I think the air marshalls are a joke!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soback Posted September 30, 2001 Report Share Posted September 30, 2001 Actually airplanes leak air through the pressure release valve and that leak is controlled. So a bullet hole would be an uncontrolled leak and stress fractures around the bullet hole can grow and make the whole airframe come appart. I am finishing my commercial licence in one of the top 5 flying academies right now, and that's what we are taught. (not about the bullet whole but decompressions, skin fatigue and all the things associated with altitude flight) Well, I send you a private message if you want to discuss it out of forum instead of making another 8 page thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fendi Posted September 30, 2001 Report Share Posted September 30, 2001 quote: I am finishing my commercial licence in one of the top 5 flying academies right now I wish I was you. So once you work try to get me some phone numbers (hint hint) Think of Fendi stuck on the ground instead of being in his Mig 29. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted September 30, 2001 Report Share Posted September 30, 2001 quote:Originally posted by Soback: Actually airplanes leak air through the pressure release valve and that leak is controlled. So a bullet hole would be an uncontrolled leak and stress fractures around the bullet hole can grow and make the whole airframe come appart.As a licensed A&P aircraft mechanic, you are mostly correct about the valve, but a hole the size of your finger in the aluminum skin of a big commercial aircraft would not be much of a problem at all.First, the size of the hole compared to the size of the aircraft would not cause 'explosive' decompression. Decompression yes, but it would be really slow and more than likely the automatic pressure valve would just close some more so the pressure would still be even inside, but with a high pitched whistle out the skin. You would have to move about nine people from the area. One of the many pressure valves on a 747 is about a 14" butterfly valve near the rear of the plane.Second, we are talking about aluminum alloy which is very soft. It won't crack (much) and cause the airframe to collapse, or a bigger hole to form, except from the pressure 'pushing' the aluminum out around the hole. Imagine a small zit with a hole in the middle on the outside of the plane.Third, if the bullet were to strike a window instead, and if the bullet were to go through it (1" to 2" plexiglass) I don't think it would shatter and cause problems. I confess to not know much about firearms strength to plexiglass. However I can almost guarantee that a bullet will not go through the cockpit glass. Ever see the bird cannon to test that stuff? Awesome.Fourth, I'm sorry to say that duct tape would not work to plug the hole that way. You see there are two or more layers of skin, one on the inside which is less airtight than the one on the outside. So unless you want to crawl on the outside of the plane to plug the hole, you will still lose pressure from the other myriad of holes on the inside layer of skin. My suggestion would be a sock stuffed as deep as possible through the first layer to try to get to the outer layer. Fifth, if you had any ideas how many rivets are missing on an airplane, or how many holes are in the fuselage (mind you they are not very big), or how much rust is on the frame, you would never fly again. I will add that all of those defects are usually well within the tolerance of any major commercial jet, but to see the total number of repairs during a 'C' or 'D' check is pretty scary.No, I don't fly. Yes, however tragic the past events, the skies are a lot safer now just from the reduction of planes in the air at one time, or more specifically, the fewer planes at and around an airport at one time. Not to mention that now the airlines have an abundance of planes and can rotate them in and out of service for repairs and tests more often. If they do or not has yet to be seen.Scotty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 30, 2001 Report Share Posted September 30, 2001 Thanks Scotty, yes, what my friend actually said was you would stuff pieces of those funky little pillows in there, or perhaps the blanket and then cover it with the duct tape.. And if You need a job, I could use a good engineer on my BC!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soback Posted October 1, 2001 Report Share Posted October 1, 2001 But think about it, we are talking about 1 hole, if a pilot starts firing his gun, and terrorists have guns, and who knows how many misses there will be, and also the way avionics are now, it's one electronic display for pilot and one for copilot, if you hit that then all you are left with is your compass, VOR, artificial horizon, altimeter, and maybe VSI, and that's not much to shoot an approach with. So I really don't think that guns should be in the cockpit, in the passenger area maybe, but definitely not in the cockpit. Stun guns will not do much damage to the plane if fired and there's a miss but they will hopefully knock out the terrorist.Edited for spelling.[ 09-30-2001: Message edited by: Soback ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soback Posted October 1, 2001 Report Share Posted October 1, 2001 And Fendi, I will get you as many numbers as you want. I just hope that people will start coming back and start getting the airline industry back on track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Real_Lucas Posted October 1, 2001 Report Share Posted October 1, 2001 Scotty - I'm not an engineer, but I like to think I know a little bit....at least about firearms and effects of bulletts on aluminum... anyway, a small hole fired through the skin of an aircraft would not by itself cause the skin to disintegrate....however, as Scotty has already mentioned, most of the planes that are flying are left to operate until they can barely fly in order to save costs. Therefore it's conceivable that a bullet fired through the airframe of a 20 year old 747, DC-10, or 737 could shatter the skin....missing rivets, rust, metal fatigue, etc. Anyone remember the 737 that had it's forward section ripped off? (the pilot was actually able to land the thing) I think it was a Hawaiian air plane, if memory serves, that was at about 30,000 feet and a stewardess was sucked off her feet, out of the plane.I seem to recall an incident several years ago about a man who was sucked out of one of the windows in the plane...apparently the pressure differential was so huge that it broke all of his bones and ejected him through the window...I might be thinking of a movie though....I think you might have to be somewhere at around 80,000 feet...or in space to get that kind of differential, but I digress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 1, 2001 Report Share Posted October 1, 2001 Well Soback, I would cross my fingers and hope that the terrorist would be behind the pilot and not in front of him. And I would hope that at less then 6 feet that the pilot would not miss. Not much of a marksman if he does. That's what's called point blank range!! LOLI have a 3inch shot group at 50 yards, and I would hope that a pilot would be trained for the same before being allowed a firearm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Real_Lucas Posted October 1, 2001 Report Share Posted October 1, 2001 what about rubber bullets or rock salt? rubber bullets are lethal at point blank range, rock salt stings like hell, but shatters on impact into granules. It also makes the "assailant" think twice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soback Posted October 1, 2001 Report Share Posted October 1, 2001 Sure, you would think that you can't miss, but who knows, a scuffle starts, terrorist grabs the arm of a pilot... ect..., trust me, you want to minimize damage in the cockpit and terrorist shouldn't even get that far as to be in the plane but even if he does that he should be stopped before reaching the cockpit (hence airmarshals) and not have to fight with the pilot for the control of the plane and possibly shoot up the cockpit or have the plane come apart. If he can't take over the plane then he will definitely will want to at least have it blown up or make it unflyable. So realistically the whole security should be started on the ground and not have everyone focus on pilots having guns and protecting the plane, that should be the very very last resort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 1, 2001 Report Share Posted October 1, 2001 Paintball guns with full CO2 or Nitro pressure set & firing marbles.You have to see it to believe it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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