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They should be thankful there is free speech in this country...


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grrrrr...

quote:

Campus protesters ignite U.S. flags

Friday, October 19, 2001

By PATRICK JOHNSON

AMHERST ÔÇö Amherst College students were stunned moments after a pro-America rally involving more than 100 people ended yesterday when several protesters emerged from the crowd to set fire to a U.S. flag.

As the sounds of "God Bless America" continued through the public address system in front of the Keefe Campus Center, as many as 10 demonstrators doused two flags with lighter fluid and set them on fire.

Five members of the group then spread a larger flag on the ground and stood on it while chanting "This flag doesn't represent me; this flag doesn't represent us."

The crowd of more than 100 people, mostly Amherst College students who moments before rallied around the flag, stood in stunned silence as the same flag was desecrated.

"This is really upsetting to me," said Christopher Palacios, a sophomore from Miami.

Palacios, who said his parents fled Cuba in the 1960s to escape Fidel Castro, said, "It makes me sick when American kids say the American flag scares them."

The pro-America rally yesterday was organized by a new student group called Amherst Assembly for Patriotism.

The group formed in response to peace rallies at each of the Five Colleges in recent weeks as well as the controversial decision by the town of Amherst to limit flag displays downtown.

"Amherst is 25 square miles surrounded by reality," said Theodore Hertzberg, a sophomore from Long Island. "I'm relieved the rest of the country does not feel the same way."

The crowd had just finished a group recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance and was beginning to disperse when as many as 10 protesters came forward.

Most of those protesting the flag declined to be interviewed.

One who did, 19-year-old Dan Griffin of Minneapolis, Minn., said the protest sought to show that the United States is responsible for much of the pain and suffering in the world.

The United States has helped continue a spree of genocide that dates back to Columbus in 1492, he said.

"How people take it is how they take it," he said.

Griffin identified himself as a student but declined to say at which college. He said the others are from different area colleges but would not say which.

Hampshire College officials confirmed a student named Dan Griffin is registered.

The University of Massachusetts records show a Daniel Griffin was enrolled but he withdrew at the start of the semester.

Michael Flood, co-founder of the Amherst Assembly for Patriotism, said he found the actions of the protesters to be inappropriate, especially since he suspects none of them are from Amherst College.

"I believe they have a right to burn the flag, but this is inappropriate," he said.

Sophomore Nick Echelbarger from Seattle said the burning was free speech of the lowest form.

"It doesn't make a point. It's just poor taste," he said.


I wonder which flag they WANT to represent them?

This one?

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Well...they DO have the right to do it. And it was a peaceful assembly, just as was the one inside the building. They also have a point about the genocide thing.

However, I do feel it was in poor taste. I wouldn't do it. Heck, I'd probably be mad if I saw someone doing it right now.

As to the comment about flags...

I get the feeling that they would rather no flag. Most people like that are anti-nationalistic. They would rather be under no flag than any flag. Not that they wish anarchy either. I believe they are just fed up with the government's policies, and the inability to do much about it. For example, when was the last time any of us had anything to say about our foreign policy? Mind you, it's our foreign policy that got us into this current mess. Though, I think if we had a different one, we'd be in a completely different, yet similar mess. But they have a right to complain, and a right to do what they did.

Again, I stress, that I do not agree with what they did. I was just trying to clarify what they -might- have been thinking. I have a bit of insight in these matters, as I have often been against what the gov't is doing. Same with my wife. Currently, my wife and I disagree about what the US is doing. And while I would be flying a flag these days, she doesn't want one. So to keep the peace in the house, I am keeping silent. Unfortunately, she doesn't seem to have the same restraint....Which explains the insight in this exact matter. (though she's never burnt a flag)

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quote:


They also have a point about the genocide thing.

How so? And, in fact, those people aren't exactly the types I'd pay a lot of attention to, considering that they don't even know their own history.

Here's an example:

quote:


The United States has helped continue a spree of genocide that dates back to Columbus in 1492, he said.

Excuse me?! What the HELL is this moron talking about? The United States wasn't even FORMED until nearly 300 YEARS after that! The idiot should be blaming the Spaniards...

What a joke...

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I look at things from a Nationalist point of view. I realize (this is me mind you) that American ideas of freedom and equality made this country great. I believe that there are differences in culture, and that boundaries should be respected. I do not believe in a globalist movement, and I believe that much of the rhetoric of globalism is, by accident or design, Marxist in origin.

In order for our freedoms under the constitution remain sacred, it is imperative that we be separate from other cultures and nations.

The reason being - every culture is different, and no overlording government can lay down rules that would make everyone happy. American culture is best represented by American government. Frankly, European Union be damned.

These people who hate America have no business here. They have a right to be here under the constitution, but they have no reason to remain - unless they are enjoying the freedoms they so readily attack. It's nothing but hypocrisy and I believe that their activities are not simply protests, but anti-American. Define it as pro-Globalist, or whatever it still means the same thing. IMHO

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My whole point is from an argument I was having with some EU citizens about the European Union having judicial and legislative jurisdiction through the world court over United States laws.

In other words, the USA would become the foster child of the EU. Sweet isn't it?

AFTER EDIT:

I also believe that in terms of currency, the EU is a good idea, in terms of equal distribution of income and governmental controls, the EU is a mistake.

[ 10-22-2001: Message edited by: $iLk ]

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quote:

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The United States has helped continue a spree of genocide that dates back to Columbus in 1492, he said.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Excuse me?! What the HELL is this moron talking about? The United States wasn't even FORMED until nearly 300 YEARS after that! The idiot should be blaming the Spaniards...

What a joke...


Erm...The genocide that he is referring to includes that done by the Spaniards. He made no specific reference to the USA doing the entire spree. However, the USA continued that spree, by nearly wiping out the Native Americans (1800s). The USA is NOT innocent of genocide. In fact, it's hard to find a nation in the world that is innocent. However, it is one nation that has decided to STOP genocide recently (within 100 years). As a result, people such as those who did the anti-nationalism protest have just cause to say things such as they did. This IS a free country. And allowing flag burning is the ultimate expression of this. However, these people burnt their flag in extremely poor taste, at an extremely poorly thought out time. They are lucky they weren't lynched by an angry mob.

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Allowing these people to stay in the United States is the equivalent of letting someone who would kill you if they ever got the chance stay in your house and badmouth your mother without ever having to leave.

But then again that's free speech.

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BTW, these people would be a lot more constructive to their ideals if they could use logic and facts to convince Americans that we would be better off as part of a global community without borders.

Instead they attempt to look and act like jerks and @$$holes, ignorant of the fact that the reason they are even breathing after doing something like that is because of the country they live in.

It doesn't matter what America was doing, they would find some reason to bad mouth us. They say it themselves, they aren't Americans - and in my view that qualifies them as illegal immigrants worthy of deportation. Non-citizens shouldn't have a right to free speech.

That's all just my opinion laced with frustration.

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$ilk, you have definitely got to take a break and open your eyes. These people have as much right to be in this country as anyone, including yourself. If we did deport these people to some other place, we would NOT be a free country. Not at all. Freedom of speech is what keeps this country able to be free. And these people were purely expressing that right as stated BY LAW. The fact that they chose that particular time and place, shows that they did not think out their actions (and I still say they are lucky to be alive and undamaged)....

If you don't like for them to have the ability to disgrace the flag by burning it, take it up with the Supreme Court that ruled flag burning was legal. Take it up with the states that agreed to the law (there are something like 5 that didn't). And if this country starts deporting people because of lack of patriotism or un-American behaviour, I will become and ex-patriot and move to England. At least there I will still be able to speak MOST of my mind. And the worst of it is, I actually support the US government, for probably the first time in a decade or more. But I feel those people had the right BY LAW to do what they did even if I don't like or agree with why they did it.

[ 10-22-2001: Message edited by: Gomez ]

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quote:


Erm...The genocide that he is referring to includes that done by the Spaniards. He made no specific reference to the USA doing the entire spree. However, the USA continued that spree, by nearly wiping out the Native Americans (1800s). The USA is NOT innocent of genocide.

He said: "The United States has helped continue a spree of genocide that dates back to Columbus in 1492, he said.If what you say is what he really meant, then why start at Columbus? We can go a whole lot further back than that. Besides, by this moron's logic we should be arresting and prosecuting people for the actions of their ancestors. No dice.

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I believe that may be because of a few things. Perhaps he was referring to American (continent, not country) genocide...or perhaps his history wasn't detailed enough to know about the masses of genocide throughout history. The not-so recent past (500 years) is much clearer than the distant past (1000+ years). Also, this country has a tendency to focus it's education on things that happen(ed) in N & S America.

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Agreed aramike, and Gomez if you read my posts carefully I know that they have a right according to law.

I was just stating the moral equivalency of that law in basic terms of practice, which may or may not allude directly to this situation and the law as written.

And in fact, I interpreted their actions to be not only carrying out their right of free speech but to be DENOUNCING THEIR CITIZENSHIP.

Federal law has a clause on that too. If they have denounced their citizenship they are no longer citizens and would in essence be subject to deportation.

Think about what I posted instead of getting inflamed after reading it over with a cursory glance.

In fact you seem to get set off when anyone voices an opinion you disagree with, just like the modern liberal. But instead of getting in a twist about it, realize that you can formulate an intelligent opinion that points out what is lacking or incorrect about my opinion, and I will gladly lay down serious reasons why I think it's so.

That's what intelligent discussions are made of, not one-sided points of view where one side is emotional and the other side factual. Of course the factual are going to be the only one's listened to.

So please take my opinions with a bit of composure and read into it to determine my thinking behind it. I will gladly post it in less colorful metaphors and define it logically and even expand on it if you so require.

I am not Politically Correct, I think PC is BS and I'm not worried about offending someone's sensibilities by telling the truth. I won't intentionally make up lies to hurt someone, but if the TRUTH hurts they are in for a rude awakening because I don't hold it back or sugar coat it. Life isn't fair, why should the truth be?

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quote:


Originally posted by Gomez:

I believe that may be because of a few things. Perhaps he was referring to American (continent, not country) genocide...or perhaps his history wasn't detailed enough to know about the masses of genocide throughout history. The not-so recent past (500 years) is much clearer than the distant past (1000+ years). Also, this country has a tendency to focus it's education on things that happen(ed) in N & S America.


My point is simple: he should learn his history. And he should make his parallels complete. If he's going to blame the US for things that happened even BEFORE its inception, his credibility is a tad low in my opinion.

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There's peace demonstrators here in SF too. I have only one thing to say, it's good that they are all demonstrating because that way we know who they are. When it gets to be too much all of them should be thrown out of this country like there is no tomorow, 24 hour notice, pack your things, put your ass on a boat and send you to some place like Afghanistan where you will learn and beg to come back if you are alive.

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quote:

And in fact, I interpreted their actions to be not only carrying out their right of free speech but to be DENOUNCING THEIR CITIZENSHIP.


No where in the article does it state that they said they denounced their citizenship. However, I can see where you might be coming from with the flag burning. However, the Supreme Court does not agree with that. Otherwise, they would have ruled that in addition to being able to burn the flag, you would immediately be taken to the embassy of your choosing. For you would indeed be right, the one burning the flag would then be an illegal immegrant.

As to the comment about emotion vs logic. I believe it was you ($ilk) who said:

quote:

Liberalism is arguments through feelings and emotions rather than logic and facts


You can NOT tell me that you are not guided by emotion. Let me ask you, when you saw the WTC get destroyed, did you FEEL sadness? Anger? Hate? And, because of that disaster, do you not support the actions the USA is taking currently because of those emotions? Not because it is a logical course of action, but because you are angered and saddened by what happened and feel a need for revenge?

Emotion is NOT evil here folks. Sorry to say, but emotion guides us to do the proper thing. To do the just and good thing. It also leads us to do the wrong things. It is what we are. It is not some Liberal conspiracy as you would have it sound $ilk. In fact, based on your statement above (which is excerpted here, mostly because I was too late in getting into that debate and the issue arose here as well), you would rather we were all robots incapable of emotion. Guided by nothing but Logic. Emotions make us who we are. We are NOT Vulcans, or Borg.

The actions those flag burners took were mostly emotional. And the actions that the United States are taking against Afganistan are also mostly emotional. They are driven by the slaughter of innocent lives. The destruction of two large buildings. There is nothing logical about that.

quote:

That's what intelligent discussions are made of, not one-sided points of view where one side is emotional and the other side factual. Of course the factual are going to be the only one's listened to.


Intelligent conversations are also made of emotion. Otherwise, there would be NO intelligent conversation concerning philosophy. A large section of Philosophy is Ethics. Ethics are defined primarily by emotion, and logically sorted out to find which suits better.

Also, sometimes, if someone did just sit back and listen to the emotional case, things MIGHT just turn out better. Logic is VERY flawed most of the time, just like the emotions that frequently guide us.

I really feel that you should take a breather from these debates, shut off Rush Limbaugh, stop reading the Free Republic and go out and listen to people...lots of people. And actually listen to them.

Liberals are no more a conspiracy than conservatives. They are JUST as guided by emotions as conservatives. They make the same mistakes as conservatives. They abuse the same number of rights as conservatives. They just have a different perspective on things. One that you do not agree with. They are NOT out to destroy America. In fact, they ARE America, JUST like the conservatives. They are ALSO just as saddened and angered by the tragedy that has struck this country recently.

The flag burners on the other hand are NOT Liberals. They are anti-nationalists. A growing group of people that doesn't believe government is really a good thing. I often find myself agreeing with them. But not this time. I -do- think they were out of line doing what they did, even if it was within the law. A better time, a better place...

There are more sides to everything than 2. Liberal vs Conservative only accounts for 2 of thousands. It also pigeonholes and stereotypes. I think you'll find that a LOT of liberals are fully in support of the actions the USA is taking against bin Laden. What was that poll I heard back in the first week after the tragedy...81% support military action....close to half the country is liberal, and close to half conservative. 81% is MOST of both groups (BTW, that's an approximation, can't remember the actual number).

So, as I have said in other threads, STOP YOUR ASSAULT ON LIBERALS! ALL OF YOU! It only divides us.

[ 10-22-2001: Message edited by: Gomez ]

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You've misconstrued my statements, as I said I will clarify for those who aren't able to interpret.

quote:

No where in the article does it state that they said they denounced their citizenship. However, I can see where you might be coming from with the flag burning. However, the Supreme Court does not agree with that. Otherwise, they would have ruled that in addition to being able to burn the flag, you would immediately be taken to the embassy of your choosing. For you would indeed be right, the one burning the flag would then be an illegal immegrant.

As to the comment about emotion vs logic. I believe it was you who said:


I wasn't referring to the burning itself, I was referring to the statement :"This flag doesn't represent me; this flag doesn't represent us."

So we are clear.

quote:

You can NOT tell me that you are not guided by emotion. Let me ask you, when you saw the WTC get destroyed, did you FEEL sadness? Anger? Hate? And, because of that disaster, do you not support the actions the USA is taking currently because of those emotions? Not because it is a logical course of action, but because you are angered and saddened by what happened and feel a need for revenge?

Emotion is NOT evil here folks. Sorry to say, but emotion guides us to do the proper thing. To do the just and good thing. It also leads us to do the wrong things. It is what we are. It is not some Liberal conspiracy as you would have it sound $ilk. In fact, based on your statement above (which is excerpted here, mostly because I was too late in getting into that debate and the issue arose here as well), you would rather we were all robots incapable of emotion. Guided by nothing but Logic. Emotions make us who we are. We are NOT Vulcans, or Borg.

The actions those flag burners took were mostly emotional. And the actions that the United States are taking against Afganistan are also mostly emotional. They are driven by the slaughter of innocent lives. The destruction of two large buildings. There is nothing logical about that.

Since you want to know how I felt, I felt disbelief, sadness, and realization at what happened. Now I feel resolve and am not worried about revenge as much as making sure that this never happens again.

Bullies only pick on you until you fight back.

And FYI you quoted me you should know, that I am referring to points and arguments made through emotion and not fact (i.e. guns are evil because they kill people)

Guns are inanimate tools. They are incapable of deciphering between good and evil. Being tools, their use is dependant upon the person holding it.

I'm talking about feel-good rhetoric that has no concept of reality.

While I argue through facts. I never assume as you did:

quote:

Also, sometimes, if someone did just sit back and listen to the emotional case, things MIGHT just turn out better. Logic is VERY flawed most of the time, just like the emotions that frequently guide us.

I believe if everyone listens to how they feel instead of how they think we would be in trouble. Think about when your g/f breaks up with you. And you loved her so much and you feel so terrible that you shoot yourself. If you had listened to your brain you would have realized you would be dead.

That's an analogy, if you need more just ask, I didn't put a lot of time into it, partly because I didn't have to because it's self evident.

Liberalism is a misguided ideology. It's mantra is "what if?" I'm not conservative in the sense we are now, I am more of a Libertarian Nationalist thinker, but the conservative viewpoint is "what is."

I can elaborate further if need be, but please don't misconstrue my statements as though they are fact instead of saying "$ilk, what do you mean by this?" unless I made it perfectly clear I meant something. Thanks.

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How ironic. I am frequently regarded as being a Libertarian as well. Yet we don't see eye to eye on the issue about Liberals? Perhaps that will clue you in to the fact that you refer to the FEW Liberals who annoy you, not the WHOLE. The way you (and several others) have been speaking, you refer to the WHOLE.

Liberalism is no more misguided than Conservatism. Both, when used exclusively will result in failure. Conservatism leads to a stagnant state that falls behind. Liberalism leads to an over extended state ready to break.

Without either one, the US government cannot operate. Therefore, neither is the enemy. Neither is wrong (unless taken to extreme). Both are American. And WE are both.

quote:

I believe if everyone listens to how they feel instead of how they think we would be in trouble. Think about when your g/f breaks up with you. And you loved her so much and you feel so terrible that you shoot yourself. If you had listened to your brain you would have realized you would be dead.

You are nitpicking. I said sometimes. It's exactly the same arguement I have about Liberal vs Conservative. Without one, we are lost. Emotions guide logic. Logic guides Emotions. Obviously, if we let emotions run rampant, there wouldn't be an Afganistan. It would be a nuclear wasteland. Our emotions said "destroy them all!" (hate hate hate). But our logic says, "no, we must think this through". However, without Emotions, again, we would have nuked em. Logic dictates that the easiest way to deal with the situation is complete elimination. But our emotions (sympathy) for the people of Afganistan who have nothing what-so-ever to do with this situation, prevents us from pushing the button. BOTH are required.

And that is exactly what I am trying to say.

Without someone saying "hey, this is wrong" (emotional response) we might go ahead and do it. Without someone saying "hey, this is wrong" (logical response) we might go ahead and do it.

Without Liberals saying "What if?" We might never consider the possibilities. Without Conservatives saying "What is". We might never see how things are currently.

[ 10-22-2001: Message edited by: Gomez ]

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I understand your point. Mind you I'm not a libertarian as the Libertarian party views itself. I'm all for everything the founding fathers wanted, anyone should have the right to do anything they want that isn't infringing on the rights of someone else, however I am ultra Nationalist which leaves me out of the Libertarian views I hear all the time. I voted Libertarian in local elections, but for National I just couldn't vote Harry Brown, the guy was smart and I liked his video, he just wasn't willing to stand up for what America's role has become. I'm all for limiting government invasion of our private lives, but against any attempt to do away with it all together pretty much.

Anyway, I don't believe emotions have a place in arguments to the extent that emotions ARE all your argument is based on.

That's why we wouldn't push the button because logical thinking keeps wild ideas that would backfire from taking flight.

Liberals, not in the classic sense, but in todays meaning, I don't mean the left, I mean the extreme left like those from Berkeley, like Cher (sp?) and Barbara Lee, I believe they hate America because in reality they are Communist.

Not all liberals are Communist, just the extreme ones, however liberalism is extremely to the left on the opposite side of the political spectrum (to me) whereas if you go too far right that's bad as well.

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It IS pretty hypocritcal to burn a U.S. flag in the U.S., but you know what? I fully support their right to burn it... so long as it was done safely and the flag they burned was legally theirs.

I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it. I forget, who was it that said that?

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Saying something is one thing. Being opposed to some US law or speaking out in disagreement with some decission, but burning US flag is a whole other story. IF you burn US flag you are desicrating this counry and the flag stands for EVERYTHING this country is. So by burning the flag then you are declaring that you are against the whole of the US not just it's foreign policies. I say get the hell out of here and go somewhere else instead of enjoying the benefits this country provides but then when this country needs you, you say that it sucks and burn it's flag.

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I just want to add that by burning the US flag they are even disagreing with the Constitution that gives them the right of free speech. So, they have taken it way too far and something should be done, because how far will they or someone else takes it next time?

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