They should be thankful there is free speech in this country...

[Guest $iLk]

They have a right to petition the government for grievances, they would rather exercise civil disobedience. They are anti-government radicals and must be stopped!

(Now I know what liberals feel like )

The fact remains they burned a flag in accordance with their free speech rights. People have a right to bad taste.

My point is that they said that the flag does not stand for them. The flag stands for the people of the USA, including those who died on 9/11 .

They are not American citizens by my argument as they have publicly denounced their citizenship. That is grounds for deportation, and I would personally like to see an episode of SURVIVOR filmed around dumping them in the middle of Afghanistan with the words "with love from the people of the USA" stamped on their arse.

That would make me watch... how bout it CBS?

[Gallion]

What is a flag? In reality it is nothing but colored thread woven and sewn into a pattern; easily redisigned, easily replaced.

The burning of a flag (any flag) means nothing to me. Why? Because there is more to being a patriot than the just waving a flag and reciting the national anthem.

Though how the those twits escaped unscathed befuddles me and shows just how timid and tolerant our education system has become. To think that in 40-50 years this generation will be in the position to take charge of this country gives me the willies.

To me the flag is a symbol that can never be destroyed. It is the constitution that sets this nation apart and above the rest of the world.

As to this:

quote:

---

I take it that lining them up in front of a firing squad is out of the question then?

---

You find them, I'll frag them

But I digress

TTFN

[ 10-22-2001: Message edited by: Gallion ]

[Soback]

A flag represents a country, it's beliefs, it's laws, and everything that country does. So burning a flag says a lot. It says that you hate this country so much that you would like to denounce it and everything it stands for. So then comes the question of "WHY ARE YOU HERE", if you are here to enjoy the benefits of this country but turn your back and $hit on it when things get tough, then go somewhere else.

[Guest]

And if you guys really want to know, I have burned US flags before, it was one of my duties. When a flag got old and torn and had to be replaced, we would have a private ceremony to retire the flag and then we would burn it. This is what you do with OLD TORN flags as a sign of respect, so they do not EVER touch the ground as a flag.

I catch anyone, and I mean ANYONE burning a US flag in protest, they will hear from my right fist as it crashes into their chin with great force. I will not put up with that type of disrespect, that is a deporting type of action as far as I am concerned.

You can be mad at the country and our congress, but burning the flag is way above and beyond as far as I am concerned.

[Soback]

Damn right.

[Supreme Cmdr]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gallion:

What is a flag? In reality it is nothing but colored thread woven and sewn into a pattern; easily redisigned, easily replaced.

---

...oh, oh. I can't bare to watch thisskirmish. Damn Insurgents.

[Menchise]

I just HAD to reply to this thread despite my busy workload this week.

After some consideration, overall, I think it was a bad protest.

*$iLk faints in disbelief*

However, it was not a bad protest because flags were burned, it was bad because the protesters had disrupted the opposing assembly. The first amendment points both ways: you can have a peaceful assembly (even one where flags are burned) but you cannot disrupt another peaceful assembly for the sake of being dramatic, which is what those 10 students did. That is where the annoyance should be directed. To say the least, I am puzzled by the fact that everyone is so blinded by the news that a US flag was burned that they didn't notice what these protesters actually did wrong.

Finally, it is wrong to deport people just because they offended the feelings of nationalists or patriots. The US government is supposed to represent ALL Americans, including the ones who are ashamed to call themselves Americans. Deportation in that context would be a shameful and self-defeating act of cowardice and failure. America is supposed to be the "land of the free", not the "land of the free patriotic nationalists".

[ 10-23-2001: Message edited by: Menchise ]

[Guest $iLk]

quote:

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*$iLk faints in disbelief*

---

Indeed...

Well Menchise I agree with you to an extent, however in my view, they weren't just ashamed to call themselves Americans, they denounced publicly their citizenship. Under law they could be held as illegals and deported. If someone interprets it as I did.

It's one thing to disagree with the government, I do all the time, but it's quite another to blatantly HATE the people under that government which is what the flag stands for.

[Guest $iLk]

BWAH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

quote:

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'Peace' Activists Get Violent

The blame-America-first left has done a great job lately of exposing its true colors. The latest example: appeasement activists busted in Connecticut for showing just how "peaceful" they are.

Seventeen protesters were arrested late Thursday in Hartford for inciting a riot, trying to strike police and disrupting the peace, the Associated Press reported today.

Whatever happened to "give peace a chance"? Apparently irony isn't dead after all.

---

BWAH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Menchise]

Try laughing like a maniac at this article.

quote:

---

MARCH FOR PEACE AND GLOBAL JUSTICE HUGE SUCCESS

Despite CHOGM being cancelled, about 2500 people came out in Brisbane on Saturday and marched for peace and global justice. Protestors listened to a range of speakers at the Roma St Forum, before marching in high spirits through the city and chanting slogans, many against the US war on Afghanistan, the most popular being ÔÇ£One, two, three, four/We don't want your racist war/Five, six, seven, eight/We will not cooperate!ÔÇØ Another slogan promoted the plight of refugees seeking asylum in Australia and criticised John Howard and the Liberal government: ÔÇ£Make room for refugees/Send John Howard overseas!ÔÇØ

The march paused outside the Defence Force Recruitment Centre in Edward St to voice opposition to Australian involvement in retribution against the [Afghan] people, then proceeded across the river to Musgrave Park. On the way through the city about 700 people joined the march. At Musgrave Park there were some musical performances and everybody took a break before more speakers addressed a range of issues, from GATS to the environment. Funkier protestors stayed for CHOGM Beats, a doof and hip-hop event, late into the evening.

Emilie Awberry from the Stop CHOGM Alliance said, ÔÇ£I think it was really amazing that 2500 people came out to say no to the war. It was a fantastic victory. It's exciting that people are reacting very strongly to the war and to see that people are committed to staying involved and building the movement. A broad spectrum of people were represented.

---

I was there, and I can say without a doubt that there was no violence at this event.

[Soback]

Those are the 2500 more people that should be shipped to Afghanistan.

[Guest $iLk]

First off, how is this war racist? The definition of racism is the belief that one race is superior to the other and has a right to dominate.

5000 Americans were killed (civilians ; women, children)

The United States is retaliating (trying not to kill civilians)

But because the USA is run by "white racists" any attack on a country of any ethnic group is considered racist.

Those people need to be sent to anti-American internment camps and processed then sent to Afganistan with a happy meal and a smile.

[Menchise]

The issues about why the war is regarded as racist are not that simple. In any case, I didn't bring up that article to argue those points. I brought it up as an example of peace activists in a peaceful protest in response to your article about peace activists being violent.

Your response as well as Soback's, that every one of "those people" (including me since I was one of the 2500 protesters) should be deported to Afghanistan was disappointing, to say the least. None of "those people" are pro-Taliban, and none of them believe that the government is legitimate, so sending them to Afghanistan is pointless.

It's a good thing that I'm not as "emotional" in debating things as I used to be, otherwise the moderators would have had to censor this entire post.

[Guest]

Well, I won't go as far as Silk did, but it sounds like a socialist wonderland to me.

Clueless, no idea what we are actually doing, racist war? I don't think so, tells me these people indeed do not have a clue. This is a war against terrorism and those that support them. Nothing less, nothing more. Anyone that thinks that it's a racist war has thier head up thier A#$.

Well, no law against being an idiot I guess.

[Soback]

Actually the war is racist. Osama wants to kill everyone (and he said so in his enterview, and other multiple remarks) that every Arab should take up arms and take every opportunity to kill someone who is not Arab and doesn't belive in Islam.

[Menchise]

I found this post in the "Meaning of Islam" thread that helps to explain why many socialists regard the war as racist.

quote:

---

quote:

Catholics and Protestants slaughtered each other in 1000s in the Middle Ages in Europe, in the name of God

/quote

They're still at it now in the form of IRA and Ulster Unionist. But these guys aren't true terrorrists as they are almost always released to continue negotiations for peace in Northern Ireland.

Real terrorrists do not get to represent themselves in Parliment especially if they lie about weapon decomissioning.

Real terrorists do not call up 5 minutes before detonating bombs in public during peak business hour.

IRA are not terrorrists.....they are called Freedom Fighters regardless of any actions that they take.

If the IRA were true terrorrists Northern Ireland would have been carpet bombed just like in Afghanistan. They would never have had a political party representing them and would never have been released from prisons.

---

I'm assuming that Fendi was being sarcastic (duh!).

Think about it. If a Western European based Christian organization had attacked the WTC instead of an Islamic group in the Middle East, would a large scale military strike have ever been considered?

Think about it. Why did everyone instantly assume that the bombing in Oklahoma was done by Moslems and started terrorizing Moslems in the streets? Why was everyone so disappointed when the bomber turned out to be an American Christian? Because they knew that they weren't allowed to bomb American Christians.

So, why does everyone believe that it's okay to bomb Middle Eastern Moslems whenever one of their kind decides to kill Americans when McVeigh committed the same crime, and he was given a trial? Why does America want Britain to negotiate peace with the IRA, yet America wants to send Al-Qaeda (sp?) into oblivion?

It's called inconsistent behaviour, a classic sign of prejudice.

This is not anti-American sentiment either; Australia is an enthusiastic supporter of the coalition. The protests in Brisbane were aimed more at Howard rather than Bush, because Howard has been contradicting himself regarding the refugee situation (he claims that Australia can't afford to take in refugees from Iraq and Afghanistan yet he is fully capable of sending military forces to help bomb those countries). I'll bet that if the refugees were Christians of European descent (including Australians and Americans), he would suddenly become able to afford it.

[Soback]

Yeah, you know what happened to that guy you call McVeigh, he was executed, and that's what will happen to osama and other terrorists. The reason for the war is we can't just go around their cities looking for osama and his buddies because then our people will be killed, therefore we kill the supporters and protectors of osama to get to him and other terrorists. Yes, there is some colateral damage, but at least we try to minimize it, terrorists on the other hand aim for killing civilians. See the difference? Now try and understand how stupid/damaging/ and embarassing those peace protests are. It's like part of the population is trying to protect the other part of the population that says "Hey, we want to be safe, but we don't want you to fight for our safety". Well, then if you don't want us to fight for your safety then why don't you go and try to PEACEFULLY convince those who would hurt us to not do so.

[Menchise]

quote:

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The reason for the war is we can't just go around their cities looking for osama and his buddies because then our people will be killed, therefore we kill the supporters and protectors of osama to get to him and other terrorists.

---

You do realize that Osama has millions of supporters, don't you? Over 90 percent of them are civilians.

quote:

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Now try and understand how stupid/damaging/ and embarassing those peace protests are. It's like part of the population is trying to protect the other part of the population that says "Hey, we want to be safe, but we don't want you to fight for our safety".

---

I don't believe that the war does anything to improve anyone's safety. As long as the cause exists, there will always be terrorists. Wiping out one group only makes room for another, more fanatical group to take its place. It is an escalation of violence that will never end until social justice is achieved for both sides.

[Guest]

quote:

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It is an escalation of violence that will never end until social justice is achieved for both sides.

---

Social Justice? No such animal in this type of war. It is about to become what you would call destroy or be destroyed. We will either destroy them, or they will destroy us.

We are infidels, and therefore deserve to be destroyed as far as they are concerned. Well, We shall be the last ones standing, there can be NO social justice...

[Guest $iLk]

Christians and Jews have not problem co-existing with Muslims. The balls in their court, if this becomes a holy war to the death between religions they will certainly learn to eat nukes.

We will see, but those who have weak stomachs and wonder why it isn't over yet need to remember that they cheered in the beginning even though the DOD said it could take "years"

[Soback]

Millions supporters? Well then if those millions want to loose their life then they are welcome to, no skin off my back, and I will not have the slightest feeling of compashion for them because they know what osama does, and what he wants to do and they support him so it's either them or it's me, what do you think I am going to choose?

[Soback]

By the way Menchise, when osama desides to PURIFY Australia, I will turn on my tv and see the peace demonstrations put their arms together and welcome the first nuclear, biological, or chemical missle, or maybe a plane into their cities, I will not stand by and let that happen in the country where I live.

[Menchise]

quote:

---

Social Justice? No such animal in this type of war. It is about to become what you would call destroy or be destroyed. We will either destroy them, or they will destroy us.

---

Who exactly is "them"?

quote:

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We are infidels, and therefore deserve to be destroyed as far as they are concerned. Well, We shall be the last ones standing, there can be NO social justice...

---

Why are we regarded as infidels? I don't think it's because we're not Islamic.

quote:

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Christians and Jews have not problem co-existing with Muslims.

---

Not according to the beatings and arsen that occurred after the planes hit.

quote:

---

By the way Menchise, when osama desides to PURIFY Australia, I will turn on my tv and see the peace demonstrations put their arms together and welcome the first nuclear, biological, or chemical missle, or maybe a plane into their cities, I will not stand by and let that happen in the country where I live.

---

Why do you assume that the peace demonstrators do not want to see Osama punished? War was never the only option, and the large scale sorties indicate that there is more to this war than simply punishing terrorists (which they have not done at all).

[Guest]

"them" are the terrorists and those Fundamentalist Islamics that support them.

This "war" is against the Taliban who are the ones that helped Osamma by giving him asylum. War was the only option, because they would have continued to give him asylum as he planned his attacks against the west. There is NO way that they would have turned him over voluntarily. And such an attack NEEDS to be responded to.

And if this turns into the Holy War that Osamma seems to want so badly, then we will see WWIII rather quickly, and we will be the last ones standing, although I am afraid to even try to guess at what the casualty totals will be. Scary, very scary.

And if you are not Islamic, then yes, you are an infidel as far as these people are concerned.

So guess what? If you are not on the islamic list, then you are on the hit list, unless we can take out those that have the hitlist and the power they have to hit those of us that are on that hitlist. War in this instance was and is necessary, I just wish that Congress would make it 100% legal by declaring war. If Congress doesn't declare it, then it is not a war, it is a police action.

[Soback]

Menchise, what you don't understand is we don't want to just kill osama and other leaders, we need to kill as much people in their organization and their supporters as possible because if we just kill the leaders then new leaders will arise, on the other hand if we kill leaders, people in the organization and supporters (civilians that support terrorists are included in my opinion) then it will be much harder for terrorists to exist in the future. So that's why their cities are being bombed, last time I checked the majority of the population was supporting terrorists, and I don't care what they look like after the attack, they should have thought of that before they said that osama is their chosen one and all who are not of islamic faith is an infidel and mush die. Also I am still very pissed about our people who died in those crashes, and anyone who does that and supports that kind of action shouldn't exist in this world. Also don't tell me "well look at US, isn't it doing what terrorist are doing" NO, it's not doing what the terrorists are doing, US doesn't go around cilling people and destroying cities just because it thinks some form of government is too nosy or just because their people don't belive in some form of religion or other, we do it when you mess with our people and I hope that they destroy or do as much damage as possible to every one of those terrorist supporting countries because the more damage we can do to them the more time we can have peace.