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They should be thankful there is free speech in this country...


Guest $iLk
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The most fierce enemy is the one who has nothing left to lose. Imagine 30 million people (a hypothetical figure) without homes, in a barren wasteland littered with armed warheads that failed to explode on impact, and a family that's half as big as it used to be, then tell me how long the peace will last.

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That's why we need to get as many of them as we can. What do you expect us to do? Forget about the 11th, the Kole bombing, the 300 marines dead, and say hey, sorry you feel that way about us, your complaint has been noted. The 11th was just the straw that broke the cammels back, it's not the sole reason for the retaliation. When 300 marines died because of terrorists did US bomb? No, it tried to talk, when Cole(spelling) was bombed did we retaliate? Again no. Now it's just too much, if we do nothing then they will continue attacking, and we loose something everytime they do, while they just get stronger, well it's time for them to loose something, maybe then we can at least have 10 years of peace, but maybe next time we will just say to hell with this and wipe out terrorist supporting countries once and for all. So, you are still missing the point, it just sounds like you are suggesting that US should back down and forget about this. Well, I am tired of UN and all other countries and people saying what the US should and should not do. They can either help us or stay out of our way, because I don't want there to be anymore 11th, or any other loss of life because of those people who think that their way of life is the only way and you should die if you don't adhere to their standards. So diplomacy obviously doesn't work, going easy on them doesn't work either, all they understand is force so maybe a few of the terrorists supporters will get a jolt of seing their family die and start thinking if they really support osama and terrorist networks so much that they are willing to die for it. So tell me Menchise, how do you think US should handle this?

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So tell me Menchise, how do you think US should handle this?

I have some ideas.

First of all, I wouldn't take any risks with the Northern Alliance, even if they are supposedly kept in check by the king, because they would become another Taliban in five years.

Secondly, I wouldn't request the support of Pakistan, because they would expect the lifting of military sanctions in return for their cooperation (remember the nuclear tests?).

Thirdly, instead of issuing an ultimatum, which effectively limits the options, I would offer a deal to the Taliban that they are not likely to refuse. Hand over Bin Laden in exchange for military aid in the war against the Northern Alliance. If they refuse, then the military aid goes to the Northern Alliance (something they would never want to happen, which is why they won't refuse). If they accept, then advisors and consultants (employed by the CIA) are sent in to Afghanistan with two missions, one overt and one covert.

The overt mission is to provide the military aid that was promised in the deal, in the form of US military equipment, but not the means of producing it. The covert mission is to organize and provide weapons and training to a new resistance movement in the south consisting of Afghan civilians, including a lot of angry women. While the Taliban are busy using their resources to destroy the Northern Alliance, the resistance in the south grows over time.

When the Northern Alliance is destroyed, the military aid to the Taliban is ceased, and the Southern Rebellion begins its attack. With the intelligence gathered by the advisors and consultants during their dealings with the Taliban military, the rebellion knows exactly where and when to strike to gain a strategic advantage. Also, due to the end of military aid, the Taliban would no longer have the means to maintain and/or repair any of the US military equipment that they received and gradually became dependant upon.

With a little luck, the Taliban would be overthrown, and Afghanistan becomes a free nation and a long term ally of the US.

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Whatever happened to the lesser of two evils? And why should we have to help a regime that hates us and protects the man who is responsible for thousands of American deaths?

The Northern Alliance ran Afganistan before the Taliban, and actually things there were a little bit nicer. Women were allowed to uncover their face without being bullwhipped and beaten with rods and chains.

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Originally posted by $iLk:

quote:

The Northern Alliance ran Afganistan before the Taliban, and actually things there were a little bit nicer. Women were allowed to uncover their face without being bullwhipped and beaten with rods and chains.

They did? I thought it was that General whatsisname, who's hiding out in southeast Afghanistan (I think) at the moment. People actually welcomed the Taliban at first, they brought some sort of order out of chaos and the crime rate became non-existant (not surprising since even not growing a long enough beard is a beating offence). I think people were prepared to put up with a lot of restrictions, as long as the war was over. Then they realised what they had let themselves in for. Did you know the Taliban make Afghan Hindus (or was it Buddhists?) wear yellow circles clearly visible on their clothing? Remind you of anything? They say it is in order for them to be recognized easily, so they won't be punished for non-Islamic practices.

Yeah, right.

Not sure about the Northern Alliance, what is their agenda exactly? They are anti-Taliban, but what is their interest in the rest of Afghanistan? They are hardly representative of your average Afghan, but rest-assured they will demand a considerable say in any post-Taliban regime.

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The Northern Alliance leader who was assassinated a few days prior to 9/11 was the leader of Afgansistan after the Soviet takeover ended. His regime was deposed by the Taliban who many thought were fighting for freedom and in the end turned out to be worse.

The NA isn't our best friend, we should use them to help end this conflict, then hold elections - allowing the women to vote, and giving them a popular few choices.

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First of all, I wouldn't take any risks with the Northern Alliance, even if they are supposedly kept in check by the king, because they would become another Taliban in five years.


This is why we are putting together a coalition government, that will be elected by the people after it has firmed itself up, and have helped the people. The Northern Alliance will NOT be in charge per se, but they are providing the manpower.

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Secondly, I wouldn't request the support of Pakistan, because they would expect the lifting of military sanctions in return for their cooperation (remember the nuclear tests?).


Already done and done, military sanctions have been lifted, and Pakistan is being VERY cooperative. And if Pakistan was NOT in the coalition, forget about doing ANYTHING in Afghanistan, PERIOD.

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Thirdly, instead of issuing an ultimatum, which effectively limits the options, I would offer a deal to the Taliban that they are not likely to refuse. Hand over Bin Laden in exchange for military aid in the war against the Northern Alliance. If they refuse, then the military aid goes to the Northern Alliance (something they would never want to happen, which is why they won't refuse). If they accept, then advisors and consultants (employed by the CIA) are sent in to Afghanistan with two missions, one overt and one covert.


This is give them arms and then destroy them later with and untrained southern rebellion. We tried this in Iraq, didn't work. We needed to supply air support, there is no way it would happen all by itself.

The Northern Alliance is already trained and armed, it is willing to help create a coalition government, why should it be destroyed?

No, you are making something very comlicated that really isn't. You already heard what is going to happen and is happening, I won't repeat it. But let me put it this way, I am sure glad it is happening the way it is happening and NOT you way. Talk about BLOODY!!! And it would take forever.

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Menchise, that's a TERRIBLE idea! That would be like giving aid to Hitler killing Jews in order to stop him from invading Poland.

No. It would be like aid to Hitler (Taliban) to attack Stalin (NA) while the Jews (Afghans) are armed and trained in secrecy.

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This is why we are putting together a coalition government, that will be elected by

the people after it has firmed itself up, and have helped the people. The Northern Alliance will NOT be in charge per se, but they are providing the manpower.

Exactly, the NA will have a large proportion of the military power. Would you trust these guys not to use it against a civilian government? They're only supporting the coalition government proposal as long as it suits their ambitions, their current ambition being to destroy the Taliban. As soon as that obstacle is out of the way, the civilian government will be next.

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Already done and done, military sanctions have been lifted, and Pakistan is being VERY cooperative.

Of course they are. They got exactly what they wanted. What happens when the war is over and the Pakistanis have an itch to scare India? Does the US impose military sanctions again? Do that, and Pakistan will never cooperate again without some very serious coercion.

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This is give them arms and then destroy them later with and untrained southern rebellion. We tried this in Iraq, didn't work. We needed to supply air support, there is no way it would happen all by itself.

Yes, civilian rebellions have failed before, but they have also succeeded before, some of them even succeeded when outside help was against them. The most famous example was the French Revolution, when the untrained Parisians defeated the 12,000 military reinforcements from Austria. They were outnumbered, outgunned, outtrained, and on their own, but they still won. Secondly, apart from establishing the "No Fly Zones", the US didn't do much to support the Shiite rebellion.

Obviously, the Afghans would need outside help, but success is still possible, and victory would have more significant advantages than it would with the plan that's in operation now:

1) The Afghan people would be fighting to create their own government instead of bowing to the next one that comes along.

2) Afghanistan would be a stronger nation, and a formidable ally against neighbouring oppressors.

3) Islamic Fundamentalists and terrorists in other countries would lose face with their civilian supporters, because one of their biggest supporting states was overthrown by an Islamic revolution. In other words, they were defeated by a Jihad!

With the plan that's being implemented now, the US is repeating the same mistakes that they made when they thought that the Taliban could be kept in check.

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Exactly, the NA will have a large proportion of the military power. Would you trust these guys not to use it against a civilian government? They're only supporting the coalition government proposal as long as it suits their ambitions, their current ambition being to destroy the Taliban. As soon as that obstacle is out of the way, the civilian government will be next

The Northern Alliance is exactly that, an Alliance, there are so many different afgani tribes represented in that alliance, it is unreal. The new COALITION government that is being planned, will not only have those tribes but a number of others as well. The Northern Alliance will not be the strong Military arm that it was a few weeks ago. Other tribes are rushing in to support them right now, so the Northern alliance will be much broader based by the time this is all said and done. The king will be brought back and there is no way he will allow fundamentalist to do what they did before. The people will also NOT put up with it. The people are being armed by the Taliban right now in the expectation that they will be ready to fight for them. I think that it's going to backfire. The Taliban is gonna get shot in the back by their own citizens that they have just armed!!

No Menchise, the Northern Alliance is NO LONGER the Northern Alliance of old, and we are going to help them get thier country back. Once that occurs, we will help them rebuild, and the next fundamentalist that tries to bring himself to power will be assassinated so quick it will make his head spin, probably by a woman!!

I think that we are going to see a lot of changes in the Middle East over the next few years. Governments are going to start collapsing right and left, most being Fundamentalist. Iran is in deep kaka right now, the young people are revolting against them. The government is taking away ALL satelite dishes and radios. The people are NOT going to put up with it this time.

Times are a changing, and they are changing fast.

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No. It would be like aid to Hitler (Taliban) to attack Stalin (NA) while the Jews (Afghans) are armed and trained in secrecy.

Not quite. It'd actually be more like giving them aid to attack someone while they kill the jews.

In any case, even if your analogy was correct, it'd be a TERRIBLE idea.

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In either case, the Taliban would not have to defeat the NA, they have done a good job so far. They would simply take the aid and use it to kill more of their own civilians and secure power.

Who says they have to listen to us in how to use the aid? And if they don't where do we end up?

Bombing the same way we are now - but against a stronger enemy. Nice thinking.

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Heh

Broken link.

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Who says they have to listen to us in how to use the aid?

What happens when anyone doesn't listen in how to use aid? They don't get any more of it, the deal is withdrawn, and the aid goes to the other side.

quote:

In any case, even if your analogy was correct, it'd be a TERRIBLE idea.

If you like, I could try again.

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I dont care who you are, if I see some one burning my country's flag by my house I am going to go kick me some $!!

me being the sentimental fool i am.

the end

[ 11-03-2001: Message edited by: warreng ]

[ 11-03-2001: Message edited by: Gallion ]

[ 11-05-2001: Message edited by: warreng ]

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Wareng, you are getting off easy. Don't take it personaly, just get used to this boards being structured and organized, it's either the right way or no way at all. So for your messages to be edited instead of being deleted all together, AND you are still here after 2 warnings, things are going well. Take care.

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I started reading this post about freedom of speech and ended up about political events in another country. "The USA... what a wonderful country we live in." I have the experience to say so aswell. How so you may ask? I volunteered to join the military service altho my personal belief is that ones duty to God (whichever one you happen to believe in or yourself if you happen to be an athiest) and country that military service at 18 should be mandatory for everyone excluding thos who medically cannot or who are a lone sibling of the familys namesake.

I have been to many places overseas and have seen many things that many here in the USA take for granted. One example comes to mind is when I saw a local man who intentionally stepped on the local currency and in doing so invoked the wrath of the local police by being severly beaten and dragged off who knows where I'd say the picture of that nations president was more than just a picture on the local currency.

Another instance where another person who sympathized with their Northern Communist neighbors and was beaten nearly to death while the local police stood by and watch and then he was taken away.

For all it's faults, it's people, it's future whether good or bad, percieved or factual, there is no place better to live than the USA. I know that other people who live in other countries also believe in their country as I do in mine and I do not deny their beliefs at all. We have NO control where we are born or in part where we are raised but we certianly do have 100% control in ourselves and how we judge the world around us.

I cannot put myself in the place of thos people in the world who have experience horrible tragedy thru history. I can only be thankful I.. I didn't HAVE to experience it.

I may not agree with you, I may not like what you say and vice a versa but I can say that I will allways defend your right to say it.

Indeed people have written books trying to get others to believe in what they believe. But I will say in closing just because you have others who believe what you believe doesn't make you right in saying that your way is the right way.

Thru life I have tried to be open minded to all people and may have suffered alittle along the way and I apologise if this is getting winded but lastly in closing I'd like to say that I have tried to live by the following creed:

Desiderata (something desired as essential)

Go placidly amid the noise and haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence.

As far as possible without surrender be on good terms with all persons. Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even the dull and ignorant; they too have their story.

Avoid loud and aggressive persons, they are vexations to the spirit. If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain and bitter; for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself. Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans.

Keep interested in your career, however humble; it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time. Exercise caution in your business affairs; for the world is full of trickery. But let this not blind you to what virtue there is; many persons strive for high ideals; and everywhere life is full of heroism.

Be yourself. Especially, do not feign affection. Neither be cynical about love; for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment it is as perennial as the grass.

Take kindly the counsel of the years, gracefully surrendering the things of youth. Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune. But do not distress yourself with imaginings. Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness. Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

Max Ehrmann ┬® 1927

According to some reference books, Desiderata is still sometimes thought to have been 'found' at Old St. Paul's Church in Baltimore and to date back to 1692. It was actually written and copyrighted by Max Ehrmann (1872-1945) in 1927, the copyright was renewed in 1948 and 1954 by Bertha K. Ehrmann. It was copyrighted by Robert L. Bell in 1976.

In 1956, the rector of St. Paul's Church in Baltimore, Maryland, used the poem in a collection of mimeographed inspirational material for his congregation. Someone who subsequently printed it asserted that it was found in Old St. Paul's Church, dated 1692. The year 1692 was the founding date of the church and has nothing to do with the poem. See Fred D. Cavinder, "Desiderata", TWA Ambassador, Aug. 1973, pp. 14-15.

Now let's get to the bloodletting..........

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quote:

One example comes to mind is when I saw a local man who intentionally stepped on the local currency and in doing so invoked the wrath of the local police by being severly beaten and dragged off who knows where I'd say the picture of that nations president was more than just a picture on the local currency.


You've been to Turkey!! Spent 18 months there myself when I was in the Army!!

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