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Afganistan + Mechs


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Hehe, had 2 look that one up.

First of all, everyone seems to be painting a picture of how not to create a mech. A 4-10 story lumbering Hulk going 1 on 1 with a Tank. Thats the worse possible picture you can paint.

The mech should be 2-3 times the size of a man. Provide armor sufficient to repel hand weapons and other small arms.

The Mech is used primarily againse infantry, not against TANKS or PLANES

In my opinion neither a tank, nor a plane would do as well as a mech vs infantry. Especially for rescue and quick strike missions. I think they have their place. Tanks and planes can't do it all. As we see currently neither is very effective at getting at the people. and neither is very effective at selective targeting on an infantry level.

So I think the mech has its advantages.

What do you think the troops will do when they see 25 1-2 story Mechs rumbling their way?

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run the hell away, then wounder how to kill them!

How fast will the things go that you thought of donyB?

sounds kind of like you would get the worst of both worlds, wouldnt stop a tank and to slow to work on people and rember their are places where people could hide, where this thing couldnt fit.

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quote:

jump over a 20 story bilding and lay down fire equivilent of a battalion of normal troops!!


1) How do you reduce the effect of the fall (the hit)? Because you are hidden in a 6 inches battle armor doesn't mean you won't feel the effects of a fall.

2)Where do you keep your ammo?

I think NASA should continue develloping their plasma cannons I've heard that they did such stuff that has large firepower (about a small rocket laucher) but weight about 300 pounds and breaks easily.

Mechs would only do good if they stay small, no more than 10 feet high.

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Actually if any of you guys are getting popular science magazine, check a couple issues back, I think 3 or 6. They have an article of new armour for the troops. It's basically an outer sceleton. What it does is, it doesn't cover the whole of the body but kinda goes along the sides and a little on the front of the chest. So it got this motorized joints that will help the soilder carry the weight easily, that way he doesn't get very tired.

Another type of armour was very interesting. That one was covering all of the body and would allow the soilder to run really fast and yes, jump higher. Not 30ft but I think somewhere along 10 to 15ft and the shock of the landing would be absorbed by the springs in the legs of the armour, they did say it was hard to use and one wrong step could send you rolling like a ball.

Also they had this incredible helmets that have night, infrared vision build it. It points out the target and also has a computer build into it so that a soilder can comunicate with the base at all times.

So this ideas are incredible. Someday we will see them in reality, and here's my reason why. Did anyone read 3000 leagues under the sea? That book was written by a guy who lived in times where nobody even thought of submarines. Or what about the book (forget the name) where people go to the moon and set up mining colonies. You also have star treck where you see all of them using PDAs and other science fiction books and movies that came from imagination when nothing resembling the stuff in the books even existed. As you can see, people want to excell (well at least some do, some are still stuck in midevil times) and that makes them use their imagination and look at fiction and then say "hmm... maybe we can really do this, whouldn't that be great". Who thought 40 years ago about a space station around earth, it was only fiction, well now we are building one, AND planning a trip to Mars. So who knows, maybe someday you will see mechs as war machines, maybe not on Earth, but what about some planet with low gravity where you can strap on some jets on the mech and make is as mobile as you want.

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quote:

1) How do you reduce the effect of the fall (the hit)? Because you are hidden in a 6 inches battle armor doesn't mean you won't feel the effects of a fall.

2)Where do you keep your ammo?


You need to read Starship Troopers, Forget about the movie, the only thing in common between the 2 was the bugs. There was nothing remotely like the book in the movie. THE MOVIE SUCKED!!

Read the book and it will answer most if not all of your questions..

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Here's the problem with this idea of "mech" infantry that can take small arms fire -- wouldn't matter too much. Sure, they may be able to take current small arms fire but history shows that when weapons become obsolete, new ones are created. Frankly, in a combat situation, I'd rather be stuck with my own two hands and feet and my wit than have to worry about some lumbering piece of metal attached to me.

When small arms become useless, larger ones simply used to replace them.

Oh, and Jaguar -- the T-72 wasn't the latest and greatest Soviet tank. The T-80 was. T-80s were never given to anyone outside of the USSR, and they are leaps and bounds beyond the '72s. In fact, they're comparable to the M1A1s, only with a bigger gun. It would be interesting to see how the M1A1's classified armor would be able to handle the best in Soviet technology.

[ 11-09-2001: Message edited by: aramike ]

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The way you compare tank and mech is like comparing hammwv to a tank they are 2 different things, tank is a huge gun on wheels and mech is a weapon platform. What would you like better having 1 gun fireing every 20 seconds or 5 guns firing every 4 seconds. And mechs dont need to cary any ammo most of the weapons used on mechs are energy based.

I agree u cant make a mech this days. its just like trying to make M1 with steam engine. cannon balls and powder its just not gonna happen.

But saying that mechs will never be part of battle is not true. Engines are going to become smaller and more powerfull.

They may not be same mechs as we know in Mechwarrior but there will be mechs down the road.

When it comes to war simple principle is applied "Bigger is better". Thats why we make cruisers and battleships instead of useing fisherboats.

Its evolution, infantry will have armored powersuites and tanks will become mechs in one form of the other.

[ 11-09-2001: Message edited by: EAGLE ]

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Biped Mechs would ecellent for behind the lines (our) support if there were ever a war with a line again (Like WW1 & 2 kinda thing). They would basically be a Walk heavy weapons Platform for support. To throw out heavier fire.

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Show my Nerdiness here but for anyone who's ever played Warhammer 40,000 they have a mech which is basicaly twice the size of standard troups which carries some devastating firepower and can really turn the tide of combat. even for a vastly outnumbered army(mine usually!) Maybe something like that would make a bit more sense.

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yea, there you go have battle armor and a small fast type mech with a hole lot of fire power

as for landing a suit of battle armor when jumping a 20 story bilding, you need to go read the first 20 pages of starship troopers the book!

every one go read now!!

why did the movie suck so much?

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quote:

Why did the movie suck so much?

I had high hopes for that movie when I heard that Heinleins wife had released the rights for a movie, then I went and saw it.

1: it was politically correct, women in combat, never in the book, pilots, YES, ground Troops, not in a heinlein Book.

2: No power suits, This was the biggest thing in the book, the book REVOLVED around the power suits, and they were just..... REMOVED!!!

3: The ships SUCKED!!! The marines were supposed to be launched from a ship like gun rounds, each inside their little agg, which would break apart in atmosphere as they went down, TOTALLY removed.

The movie had absolutely NOTHING in common with the book except the bugs, everything else was never in the book, and wouldn't have been, Heinlein was not cheesy, and that movie was!!!

I believe that power armor is a real possibility in the near future, not like mechs, but powered armor for grunts. What do you think there Aramike?

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Aramike you keep making point that tank has a low profile, compare to what mech, soldier has smaller profile compare to tank and yet we still make tanks. Mech is not a walking tank its should have more armor and weapons so that tank will do little or no damage agains it. Low porfile of a tank will not help it 'couse mech locks on to a tanks power sig. miles away, behind buildings and obsticles where profle makes no difference, becouse its red dot on a radar and it tells u there is a powersourse there with a gun aiming at you. Thats why in the game when u see red dot on the radar u dont care if its a small truck or a mech, what u want to know is how much damage it will take before going down.

Mechs are a since fiction, so is everything else in our lifes. Long time ago there were those who said 'One day people will fly', and those without open mind said 'You are crazy, it cant be done becouse it can not be done'.

then there were people who said 'One day we will go to the stars' and close minded people branded them crazy. becouse it couldnt be done then.

Everything we have now was since fiction 50, 100, 1000 yeas ago, and what we call since fiction now will later take physical form for some one to live with.

Plus this topic has gone off track a bit. the point of it was 'It would be nice to have mechs in afgan.' not 'Why military doesnt make mechs'

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You think that you see red dots on radar in real life? Look, all you see on radar is your radar beams being reflected off of objects that do reflect them so if a tank is between 2 buildings and you have a radar, guess what, you are not going to see that tank between them. That's why if you fly an airplane between 2 hills the ATC can't see you on their radar. Life is not like in the games. Second, if you see that tank on radar but he is not in line of sight, then you have to deliver a weapon to that tank. The way to do it is from the top because it's not in line of sight, and if there is something over that tank or the topology around the tank is too steep then how are you going to arc that weapon to the tank? Think about that.

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Let me make a correction, you don't need to fly the plane between 2 hills for ATC not to see you. You can just fly low enough so that the line of sight between you and the radar is blocked, then the radar will not be picking you up. Radar = line of sight.

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Biped vehicles would handle rough terrain much better than tanks do now. That is why scientist our trying to imitate what nature has been doing for thousands of years, walk on 2 feet. That form of motion is stable and fast if you can work out the physics like our body already does.

The ideal mech would carry enough armor to stop all soilder carried weapons except anti-armor weapons. It would be 10 feet or less in hieght, and be able to move about 60 mph. It would be the ideal anti-infantry weapons and be a great tank killer in urban warfare. Its mobility would enable it to dodge most anti-armor weapon systems.

It would have to remotly or computer controlled to save wait for weapon and movement systems.

I think electric systems will improve greatly and allow many new technologies when figure how to make a room temperature super conductor. A super conductor would greatly increase the power of electric motors.

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Dodge anti-armour weapons? Where do you get such an idea? Do not translate games such as mech warrior or that game where you wear an armour suit into real life. Do you have any idea how fast a missle or a balistic shell goes? You wouldn't even have time to blink your eye. The only way you would have some warning is if it's fired from far away and you detect it and even then if it's a homing missle fired from the plane take out your bible or whatever you use and make peace with yourself.

Enough armour to stop soilder carried weapons? Ever hear of bazooka? Wanna stop that from 200ft? Actually you are right, it will stop it don't forget though, it will stop you too.

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I meant RPGs, high caliber machine guns and rifles. If a small mech (less than 10 feet tall) is going fast (40 plus mph) it is going to hard to hit it with a shoulder launched missile. Of course a mech would not be able dodge those weapons from a standstill. And i don't think anything would be able to dodge computer targeted ballistic shells and guided rockets.

In my view a mech would be better version of infantry troops, retaining the mobilty of infantry while adding more armor and firepower. Bridging the gap between tanks and infantry while keeping a relitivly small package. They would also be more effective than tanks in urban areas.

As for the control i am not sure on how to control a small mech (one without room for a human). I would think you could do it remotely (which has some problems), have it computer controlled or put a human brain in it (cyborg). Of course most of what i propose is not possible with todays technology, but if we get the proper technology i think we will build mechs to fill a heavy infantry role.

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Actually the small, slightly larger than human mechs are very much a possibility. Giving the mech a standing crew compartment, with the legs running into the legs of the mech and arms in the arms, the mech could be armored with the new plastic armors being developed which are highly effective and VERY light. They could be incredibly mobile, and run off a variety of power sources. The sources could range from gas turbine to electric motors. Mobility would be amazing allowing the mech to go prone, duck and what not. The mechs could be very cheap in both man power and construction and could help provide protections against the new bio and chemical threats on the battle fields. As for offensive power, the vehicles could have built in machine guns and light cannons for soft targets or even mount hellfires for Anti-armor.

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quote:

You wouldn't even have time to blink your eye

Your eyes deceive you young skywalker

*hands over blast helmet*

Let the force flow freely within you.

There's a cybernetics department right next to the one I go to everyday in University. Paddy would know what I'm on about. I'll try to be friendly with one of the lecturer and ask them if mechs are viable vehicles. You guys should see what the "spider" robot could do. It's sooooo sweet. Now imagine it being scaled up really realy big...... a 20 meter in height worth of Arachnaphobia!!!

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Aramike you keep making point that tank has a low profile, compare to what mech, soldier has smaller profile compare to tank and yet we still make tanks.

Bad comparison. Tanks can carry weaponry that a soldier never could, INCLUDING *ANYTHING* that a mech could conceivably carry. So, yet again, the mech needlessly presents a larger target.

quote:


Mech is not a walking tank its should have more armor and weapons so that tank will do little or no damage agains it.

And HOW are you going to put that much armor on something that focuses ALL of its weight on a small area on the ground?

quote:


Low porfile of a tank will not help it 'couse mech locks on to a tanks power sig. miles away, behind buildings and obsticles where profle makes no difference, becouse its red dot on a radar and it tells u there is a powersourse there with a gun aiming at you. Thats why in the game when u see red dot on the radar u dont care if its a small truck or a mech, what u want to know is how much damage it will take before going down.

That's gaming, not real life. As Soback stated, in real life, you don't get a "red dot". You get a radar signal, period. Then command decides if that signal is friend or foe, and orders the weapons accordingly.

quote:


Mechs are a since fiction, so is everything else in our lifes. Long time ago there were those who said 'One day people will fly', and those without open mind said 'You are crazy, it cant be done becouse it can not be done'.

*Sigh*. I'm NOT saying that it CAN'T be done, I'm saying that doing so is WORTHLESS. Happens to be the same thing that ANY military strategist would tell you.

quote:


then there were people who said 'One day we will go to the stars' and close minded people branded them crazy. becouse it couldnt be done then.

Everything we have now was since fiction 50, 100, 1000 yeas ago, and what we call since fiction now will later take physical form for some one to live with.


Rubbish. Certain acheivements, perhaps. But not creating stuff that doesn't actually DO anything. We don't create technology that doesn't advance the cause -- mechs would not advance the military.

quote:


Plus this topic has gone off track a bit. the point of it was 'It would be nice to have mechs in afgan.' not 'Why military doesnt make mechs'

My point: It wouldn't be nice to have mechs ANYWHERE.

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Not only is a high foot surfacepressure a big problem, people tend to forget that an elephant is significantly slower than any other 4 legged creature. A mech is not going to dodge or jump to evade missiles and what not. It will be hit before it turned it's torso. These things are waaayyy heavy, AND big. The more dense material further away from the axis of rotation requires a higher torque for the same acceleration. Torque= Sum_of_all(mass*radius^2)*rotational_accel. So, the torque required per unit of accel: (Torque/rotational_acc.)=Sum_of_all(mass*radius^2)

Agreed, with new composite armor technology one can reduce the weight part of the equation significantly. But the 'size squared' part still remains, and carries the most influence.

Those mechwarrior games and games , i.e. like Robocop and that movie with a family going in space on a hyperjump mission of sorts (You know, with the "Friends"-guy.), are nothng but makebelieve. Those animations fool you. It can't possible go that quick. 1: Because of the above mentioned law of physics. 2: Bipeds are inherrantly unstable. It you don't have equal or more than 3 legs, you'll fall over if you don't do something about it. Bipeds can be stable if they walk fast enough (and that's the question), or dynamically stable if they adjust their limbs when they tend to tip to the wrong side. In order to keep standing or moving it needs torques and power in excess of starting normal limb movement to adjust for errors in limb angles. And all in unloaded state! We're not even talking about carrying weapons or armor yet.

But enough of this engineering rant. Next!!!

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Actually, have you guys ever watched the ANIME version of Starship Troopers? Its OLD, made in the 80's, the animation is almost in between Macross and Speed Racer, but they stick to the book 80%.

What is really amazing is how they portrait the Mobile Infantry Armour suits... its amazing.

If you get a chance to see it, pay attention during the training scenes where the troops learn the suit. Disregarding the part of the suit "reading" the pilot's mind (taken from the book), the suit itself is incredibly in-the-reach of today's tech. Hydraulics to boost the troop's strength and speed, armour to stop any kind of small arms fire, suit-mounted shoulder strapped grenade launcher (tied to head mount like the optics are tied to the pilot helmet in the Apache helo), rocket thrusters on the lower back and upper torse to soften falls/aid in high jumps/mid-air vector change...wow. And all that you can do today. Weight? Heck, with today's titanium alloys and composites you can do wonders.

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