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Pen&Paper Games vs. Computer Games


JaxFox
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Some Paper/board games have one fantastic advantage over "computer games" convert them to a PBEM form and you can play them at work unless your mail admin is very sharp.

I play email Diplomacy and email Chess regularly in my lunchbreak. I would love to see some of my favourite games converted to PBEM. Car Wars, Warhammer 40K and AD&D (now that would be hard!) over email would be a fantastic complement to the real-time full resource games that, realistically, can't be played at work.

In my last days of DMing, I wrote a computer program (on my MSX! ) that kept track of game time, remembered all the rule tables for me (this was pre second edition) and allowed me to make dice rolls against those tables. By keeping track of the time, it also implemented the weather system from the Wilderness Survival Guide, rules which fell into the "beautiful but never used" category of so many of them. Unimplemented plans for it included keeping track of the NPCs, which would have been cool.

Hmmmmmm, now I am thinking PBEM AD&D......could it be done?

Smiley

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quote:

Another problem is that these sad, sick human beings have nothing better to do with their miserable lives than to spend months pouring over the rules trying to find that elusive unbeatable combination of abilities and equipment which will render their special character{s} invincible.


[rant mode on]

What about those computer games junkies? They play 24/7... and when I come online, I'm so miserable, it's not even fun... And everyone on the internet try to use the game's "defectosities" to give them an advantage.

For example, take Battlezone 2, where you mostly drive hover tanks. You can use hills and ground deformations to make high jumps, but then you have ALL players jumping several dozens meters high and pitching down to hit you while he is where your cannons can't aim. And when I try the same trick, I get shot twice as much. (for those who know the game : I think the best thing to take in deathmatches is a mauler equipped with mag cannons... I kill so much with that)

Counter-strike. Even though I tried training myself, those bastard always kill me with 4 shots (in a quarter second) using a ak47 about 100 meters away, while I can unload a steyr aug clip (a very precise gun) in burst mode 10-20 meters away and not even killing the guy. Hell I can't even get a good kill ratio while camping with a AWM... I'm dead before I pull the trigger, and I'm not nervous. Hell I would have a cheat to see everything in wireframe and I'm sure I would still lose. Having a hard time not believing that half of the people cheat.

Quake 3? Spawn. Make a step. Die. Respawn. Die. Respawn. Die. Respawn. Run for a while. Shoot for a sec. Die. Respawn. Die....

I still have to test myself in a flight/space sim to see how unskilled I am...

[rant mode off]

I feel better.

[ 12-12-2001: Message edited by: Epsilon 5 ]

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quote:

Originally posted by Epsilon 5:

[rant mode on]

What about those computer games junkies? They play 24/7... and when I come online, I'm so miserable, it's not even fun... And everyone on the internet try to use the game's "defectosities" to give them an advantage.


You have a good point, but with a computer game you cant have rules dictated to you. Unlike a computer game, a player can take a book and quote to you the rules and attempt to demand that you go by them or change what ever you are doing.

Heh where in the P&P game you can get revenge by killing off the players character in some ultimate and pointless death.

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I've played very few table top games, and was not impressed. For one thing, sorting through grossly over-complicated manuals while arguing over a trivial rule is absurdity at its finest.

If one could make a game with simple rules where STRATEGY, not rules, are the most important feature of the game, then maybe it'd be fun.

Computer gaming, on the other hand, can accomplish both tasks quite easily. For one thing (and the most important), once in the game the rules are the rules. They are not open to ridiculous interpretations. If I'm playing a game, I want to play a game -- not enter into a debate.

Oh, and I have to agree with the earlier description of the "average gamer". I don't believe I've ran into one with good personal hygiene yet. Being a gamer should be a part of one's life, not one's life as a whole.

Oh well, to each their own.

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Well, I think magic (card game) is the best. I personally have never played it person to person, but rather got Magic the gathering for the PC and also it's one of the games where it's fun to watch other people play.

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Originally posted by Soback:

Well, I think magic (card game) is the best. I personally have never played it person to person, but rather got Magic the gathering for the PC and also it's one of the games where it's fun to watch other people play.

Did you play on T.E.N. at all? I used to play there under the name Purvis.

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quote:

Originally posted by Epsilon 5:

[rant mode on]

What about those computer games junkies? They play 24/7... and when I come online, I'm so miserable, it's not even fun... [rant mode off]


Jez I though I was alone on that one I would practice as much as I could before going on line and still get my ass kicked the only game I sort of did ok on online was Unreal Tournament.

quote:

Oh, and I have to agree with the earlier description of the "average gamer". I don't believe I've ran into one with good personal hygiene yet.

HEEEYyyyy! I resent that one I am a gamer have been for years I play D&d and Shadowrun regularly and play Warhammer 40K as often as I can find an opponent, I often pop into Games Workshop to top up my army.

And MY personal hygiene level is excellent(my wife wouldn't stand for anything less LOL)

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quote:

Originally posted by Schmendrick:

Did you play on T.E.N. at all? I used to play there under the name Purvis.

Nope, I only played it in storyline. You choose a wizard to fight for, you walk around the map and capture cities and dungeons and castles for that wizard, and you have to defeat the other wizards. Also you get a card as a reward if you win a fight, and if you loose you give up a card.

[ 12-12-2001: Message edited by: Soback ]

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quote:

Originally posted by aramike:

I've played very few table top games, and was not impressed. For one thing, sorting through grossly over-complicated manuals while arguing over a trivial rule is absurdity at its finest.

If one could make a game with simple rules where STRATEGY, not rules, are the most important feature of the game, then maybe it'd be fun.

Computer gaming, on the other hand, can accomplish both tasks quite easily. For one thing (and the most important), once in the game the rules are the rules. They are not open to ridiculous interpretations. If I'm playing a game, I want to play a game -- not enter into a debate.

I've really got to disagree here. It seems to me that you're stating one of computer game's largest disadvantages as an advantage. When I sit down and play a game, computer or otherwise, I want to have some creative freedom. Have you ever noticed that nothing ever changes in the average online game? And that includes all the popular ones - Diablo II, Counter-strike, Quake III, Unreal Tournament, and so on and so on. The same applies for strategy games. Once the game has been out for a week or two every viable strategy is already known and it comes down to pure hand-eye coordination. This is especially true of real-time "strategy games", even though they try to hide it.

In single player BCM might be the exception to the rule and BCO will probably have an equally wide range of options - but BCM multiplayer will probably fall victim to this as well. Not that it's a "bad" thing, just that one rarely plays an online game for strategy. On the other hand, you can't play single player forever (and this goes for any game) because eventually the AI will stop being a challenge. Then you get to go online and have a test of reflexes with people who are at about the same skill level as you.

On the other hand, table top games allow for generally infinite strategies and total and complete creativity and freedom of action. I'll use roleplaying games as an example. You just can't compare the amount of options you have when a live GM is sitting in front of you running the story and when you're just playing through a canned adventure. No matter how many possible paths or endings it claims to have you're still forced to play only one way. I guess that's why I like BCM so much .

This goes for table-top war games as well, although I'm not into them quite as much as I am rpgs. Not only is it more fun to have your opponent sitting a few feet away, but they allow for sooo many more options during play compared to computer games it's simply incredible. There's no need to dumb-down the rules as is done in computer games since the publishers don't pretend that there's any mass market appeal. It caters to a generally very intelligent group and there's no need to make the rules for anyone else.

quote:

For one thing, sorting through grossly over-complicated manuals while arguing over a trivial rule is absurdity at its finest.

Just for reference - a rules laywer, ie someone who is interested only in how the rules can benefit him or following them to the letter, is a bad roleplayer. Someone you don't want to play with. Associating this type of attitude with roleplaying games either because of one bad experience or someone elses bad experience is absurd. As for the manuals, what can I say? I like to read.

quote:

Oh, and I have to agree with the earlier description of the "average gamer". I don't believe I've ran into one with good personal hygiene yet. Being a gamer should be a part of one's life, not one's life as a whole.

Either you two live in one of the strangest places in the world or Connecticut is just some kind of sheltered little bubble. In my entire time playing RPGs, going to conventions, and literally asking people I met in gaming stores and book stores if they were interested in playing in a campaign I've yet to meet more than one or two people who even come close to fitting the description given. Sorry if I sound angry, but it's just such a stereotypical and uninformed thing to say it makes me crazy.

First of all, most "gamers" I know play for 7 or 8 hours in once a week sessions. That would probably be about average for a roleplaying game player, some who have more time might play two times a week. That's compared to computer game junkies (damn it, I'm one of them too - but at least I admit I have no life ) who sit in front of a computer screen for four or five hours A DAY with no real social interaction mindlessly blasting away everything that moves. I'm sorry, but there's just no way possible you can compare that to interacting with a group of four or five other people in person playing a game that requires actual intelligence, creativity, and strategy.

If you're not interested in table top RPGs then fine - but don't make them out to be "uncool" or played only by people who aren't fit to join in with the rest of society.

EDIT: Buahahahaha! Post 100! Woohoo! Go me!

[ 12-12-2001: Message edited by: Simparadox ]

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quote:

Originally posted by Emmett.hendrick:

Jez I though I was alone on that one I would practice as much as I could before going on line and still get my ass kicked the only game I sort of did ok on online was Unreal Tournament.

The majority of online shooters and real-time strategy games are based on habits. You need to play enough to instantly recognize where you should aim, when you need to shoot, what areas of a map are best to stay in, where the enemy (and that means human players) are likely to go, etc. etc.

Like I said in my last post, there isn't a multiplayer computer game out there that can give you a whole lot of freedom in your actions. The idea is to learn the right pattern to follow and then follow it well. In counter-strike you stick with your team during the beginning of the game, if you don't then you could get ambushed by an enemy team coming in another direction. You need to know all the hiding places on the map, which ones are good, and so on. Fortunetly, once you learn all of this stuff you'll find yourself as one of the top two or three players every game (I think I'm still in the UGO server's top 100 for Counter-strike, even though I haven't played for months ). Unfortunetly, a little while after you learn it all the game stops being fun.

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quote:

Originally posted by Simparadox:

Either you two live in one of the strangest places in the world or Connecticut is just some kind of sheltered little bubble. In my entire time playing RPGs, going to conventions, and literally asking people I met in gaming stores and book stores if they were interested in playing in a campaign I've yet to meet more than one or two people who even come close to fitting the description given. Sorry if I sound angry, but it's just such a stereotypical and uninformed thing to say it makes me crazy.

Well I've frequented gaming shops all over the western half of the country. And I can honestly say that every one of them had at the very least one regular who redefined slovenliness. In all fairness, the real putrid ones usually weren't the younger people. It was usually the grossly overweight bearded guy somewhere in the 30 - 45 age range. The guy who only had one pair of sweat pants which he washes twice a year whether they needed it or not. They're usually quite good at the games they play, given that they've devoted every waking moment of the last 20 years to them. For each newbie that they mercilessly destroy they tattoo another hash mark on their upper ass cheek (which is always prominently displayed so as to intimidate any passers by).

These people are always there. There's not a game store in the universe which doesn't have such creatures. And since you claim to never have seen such people, then there's only one possible explaination. It's YOU!!!!

[ 12-12-2001: Message edited by: Schmendrick ]

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quote:

Originally posted by Schmendrick:

These people are always there. There's not a game store in the universe which doesn't have such creatures. And since you claim to never have seen such people, then there's only one possible explaination. It's YOU!!!!


Mm hm... and how would you know that these people are always there unless you yourself are also always there?

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Schmendrick,

And so what? Alot of us have probably encoutered such individuals. They are one end of the spectrum.But, I don't think they represent Gamers.at least to me they don't.The gentleman that introduced me to gaming was a PHD,Head of the County Board of Education,and a well groomed,articulate and well liked man.Since then I've met gamers of every stripe.

All of this aside though.I feel it is entirely inappropriate to insult the man because he has had a different experience with gamers than you.

[ 12-13-2001: Message edited by: Stormshadow ]

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quote:

Originally posted by Stormshadow:

Scmendrick,

And so what? Alot of us have probably encoutered such individuals. They are one end of the spectrum.But, I don't think they represent Gamers.at least to me they don't.The gentleman that introduced me to gaming was a PHD,Head of the County Board of Education,and a well groomed,articulate and well liked man.Since then I've met gamers of every stripe.

All of this aside though.I feel it is entirely inappropriate to insult the man because he has had a different experience with gamers than you.

Whenever you read a post in which the writer seems to make completely absurd claims backed by ludicrous evidence. It's usually a safe bet that the writer was merely joking.

Either that or they're British!

[ 12-12-2001: Message edited by: Schmendrick ]

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quote:

Originally posted by Schmendrick:

In all fairness, the real putrid ones usually weren't the younger people. It was usually the grossly overweight bearded guy somewhere in the 30 - 45 age range. The guy who only had one pair of sweat pants which he washes twice a year whether they needed it or not. They're usually quite good at the games they play, given that they've devoted every waking moment of the last 20 years to them. For each newbie that they mercilessly destroy they tattoo another hash mark on their upper ass cheek (which is always prominently displayed so as to intimidate any passers by).

These people are always there. There's not a game store in the universe which doesn't have such creatures.


Heh I can attest to that, as much as I hate to admit it there is a fellow in our gameing group that fits the above description to the tee.

Thankfully from what our group has determined from some heavy research is that only one such specimen exist in the city where I live.

What is sad is that people take one look at him and come to the conclusion that all gamers, includeing the rest of the group is just like him.

I can thankfully say that is not true.

Why do we keep such a creature in our group you say?

Two words

Cannon Fodder

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Well, all I have to say is, Thank you to Malfador Machinations for Space Empires. Imperial Starfire was a game I always burned to play back in the heyday when time was something that was no consideration.

And a word about obscure RPGS....all Hail "Expendables"......and a word of advice...just crawl into a box and hide if you are in a "Rifts" campaign and you have no gun.

BTW, I am a gamer and I shower twice a day....

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