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A sad time for Linux gaming.


Menchise
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Gentlemen,

I think you miss the point. Anytime gamers are deprived of a choice on the method and medium in which they game,It is a sad day for us all.

quote:

Down with Linux! Long live Windows! HORRAH!

I remember a time when such a statement,made in the presence of hard core gamers, would get you banished to the Abyss,never to be heard from again.......

I guess Microsoft should go with "Resistance is Futile" as a corporate motto. By the end of this generation the assimilation will be complete. *sighs*

[ 02-09-2002, 22:50: Message edited by: Stormshadow ]

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linux is not a gamming platform it was origionaly unix which was a (server) os, i dont get why poeple try to play games on os's that were never designd to run them, linux is designd for database etc the only version of linux which is even remotely geard towards graphics is irix, and you need a sgi system to run it, further more the win drivers are more optimised then the unix counter parts, now lokis closeing just showed us all how good linux is with games, besides i dont think you would want a developer getting forced to make a game work on two operateing systems not only would it take longer the quality of the game would generaly be lower because he has to worry about a morrid list of issues, im not flameing unix just i beleave it should what it was designd to do be a server!

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quote:


Originally posted by Menchise:

On the 30th of January,
Lokigames Software
closed down.


Yeah, and?

Linux gaming will NEVER come of age and anyone foolish enough to think otherwise, is going to end up down the same path.

There are VERY few hardcore gamers running Linux, who don't already have a Windoze box (or even a dual-boot one), so, WHATS the point?!?

In fact, back in October 2001, at the prompting from an industry friend of mine (who wanted to see BCM on Linux), I contacted Gavriel State (10/26) at Transgaming. He responded (10/27) and I replied to his email (11/1) and never heard from him again.

Their loss, not mine. Considering the reception of BCM, one would call that a tragic case of dropping the ball.

I'm never going to attempt that again. Ever.

Hi Derek,

We have not tried BCM on WineX as yet, but have just downloaded

the E1 demo. Unfortunately, right now WineX only supports DirectX 7,

so the DirectX 8 based E2 demo will certainly not work at this point.

We'll have a look at it and let you know how much work we think

would be necessary.

At TransGaming, we do two kinds of things: fully optimized 'ports',

such as The Sims for Linux, where we modify the game source to

work better with WineX where appropriate, and pure runtime work

that allows boxed Windows games to be run directly out of the box,

but often with several quirks and difficult to solve issues.

Once we have a better idea of how well BCM E1 works under WineX

we'll be able to have a better sense for the potential business

opportunities.

Thanks for your interest!

-Gav

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quote:

Originally posted by Stormshadow:

Gentlemen,

I think you miss the point. Anytime gamers are deprived of a choice on the method and medium in which they game,It is a sad day for us all.


I'm not saying that linux is crap, I personally like linux. But xierxior is right, linux was not created for gaming, it was created for business. If a gamer wants linux installed on his computer he can do a dual boot system (although I think a Linux/Windows Dual Boot may require 2 HD). Personally, I'd like to see a good competitor come out of the rubble that Microsoft has created of other buisinesses through the years and beat the pants off of Windows, which I'm sure can be done. To all linux gamers out there, if you really want to play games then go get a copy of Windows 98se, because it is the current gaming industry standard OS and I know for sure that it is compatible in a Linux/Windows dual boot system. (God that was one helluv'a runon sentence ) It really is a pity that loki closed down, really, but in a market that is based on Windows its kind of hard to compete.

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Guest Grayfox

i really dont see it as being deprived of a choice. they just couldnt make it in a market where a larger company has hold. its sad yes, but hey, this is the computer industry, companies go under daily.

the writings on the wall

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Guest Hellbinder[CE]

Linux is way over rated in my opinion.

It about as far from a user friendly mainstream OS as you could possibly get.

Any OS that makes you set the vertical refresh rate of your monitor before you can install it is a WASTE of time and resources.

Personally I am glad its dying. Now less companies will waste valuable time and resources to support it. More power to Windows and the MAC enviorments. (mac is not all that great either)

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Guest Hellbinder[CE]

quote:

Personally, I'd like to see a good competitor come out of the rubble that Microsoft has created of other buisinesses through the years and beat the pants off of Windows, which I'm sure can be done

I am amused when i see comments like this.

Exactly how could you improve on say Windows 2000/XP?? In an x86 enviorment there is simply no other way to approach an OS IMO. Sure you could make it more stable, more secure ETc. AS far as the core concetps behind windows or the MAC OS they cannot be improved upon with todays technology.

There is no, nor likeley ever will be any other "suprise, look at this cool now and origional OS".

Remember the concepts behind windows were thought up by the brightest minds in the world. Starting back at Xerox where the point and click enviorment was born.

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quote:

Any OS that makes you set the vertical refresh rate of your monitor before you can install it is a WASTE of time and resources.

I didn't have to do that. It didn't even ask me to. What Linux distro were you using?

quote:

Exactly how could you improve on say Windows 2000/XP?? In an x86 enviorment there is simply no other way to approach an OS IMO. Sure you could make it more stable, more secure ETc. AS far as the core concetps behind windows or the MAC OS they cannot be improved upon with todays technology.

You need to look into the OS architectures of both Windows and Linux and the effects of each design before making such a claim. Windows is bloated and less durable.

quote:

Remember the concepts behind windows were thought up by the brightest minds in the world. Starting back at Xerox where the point and click enviorment was born.

Since when did Windows have the only desktop environment with point and click? It wasn't even the first.

[ 02-10-2002, 20:59: Message edited by: Menchise ]

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first you gotta run xfree86 i beleave its called to setup your video card which takes forever, what happens if your video card isnt supported, you have to download most likely outdated nvidia drivers which have to be compiled, then most users will need to recompile their kernal which also takes forever, then your gonna wanna setup your internet connection only to find out plug and play modems dont work under linux, you need to go out and buy a legacy modem, not to mention alot of broadband isp's dont support linux, now we move on to say installing return to castle wolfenstein, first your gonna need to download linux patchs to get the multiplayer to work im not sure if the single player version is out yet, then your gonna need to extract all the files apply the multiplayer patch, and pray it detects the mounted modem, that right there would take days to setup all to what play a game? this is exactly why i think it should stay as a server, alot of poeple overrate linux as a workstation, and x is far more unstable then win2k/xp, you get alot of peopel who are pro linux because they want all software to be freeware they also have the whole anti microsoft think going on which if microsft didnt exist i most likely wouldnt be saying this right now.

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quote:

first you gotta run xfree86 i beleave its called to setup your video card which takes forever

Huh? It's part of the install process, I installed mandrake 8.1 and the only thing I had to do is choose the version I wanted to use (I took the recommended one) and that's it. Of course after I get to choose the resolution/color depth but that's stuff I always do after installing windows, so it's not a wastes of time.

quote:

what happens if your video card isnt supported, you have to download most likely outdated nvidia drivers which have to be compiled

I don't know about that, but my gf2 wasn't supported in the 8.1 bersion. I've been told that the 8.2 does (which just got out) support all gf2 and gf3s. Gotta download it still, will take a few days (gotta love ADSL)

quote:

then most users will need to recompile their kernal which also takes forever

The mandrake core is "plug-and-play", no need to recompile the core.

quote:

then your gonna wanna setup your internet connection only to find out plug and play modems dont work under linux, you need to go out and buy a legacy modem, not to mention alot of broadband isp's dont support linux

My friend who has the same internet as me got his Broadband internet access installed automatically, he just had to enter the username and password. I personally access the internet thru the windows ICS, and I had a bit of problems... didn't worked alot on it. But I'll make you note here that I had TONS of problems setting up my ICS in windows itself... and I was doing everything ok...

quote:

now we move on to say installing return to castle wolfenstein, first your gonna need to download linux patchs to get the multiplayer to work im not sure if the single player version is out yet, then your gonna need to extract all the files apply the multiplayer patch, and pray it detects the mounted modem, that right there would take days to setup all to what play a game?

I can't comment on that one.

quote:

this is exactly why i think it should stay as a server, alot of poeple overrate linux as a workstation

Maybe linux was designed to be a server thingy, but linux is not unix, it's only based on unix. And why shouldn't they try to make games run in linux? Afterall, win2k, the windows server OS does support games, it's even a very good gaming platform, which, if we follow your idea, shouldn't be.

quote:

and x is far more unstable then win2k/xp

I doubt it

quote:

you get alot of peopel who are pro linux because they want all software to be freeware

What's the problem with that? Because you make stuff for linux doesn'y mean it HAS to be free. But if a company want to make freeware stuff, then why shouldn't it?

quote:

they also have the whole anti microsoft think going on

Yeah so? They have the right to dislike a comany... and it's logical that if someone doesn't like some company's product, they would use another company's product (well here we aren't really speaking about "other companies")

quote:

which if microsft didnt exist i most likely wouldnt be saying this right now.

Sure thing

[ 02-11-2002, 02:33: Message edited by: Epsilon 5 ]

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yeah but im saying not to many games are actually even made for that os, i dont see a point in trying to emulate windows based games either as they run slower and i dont even think theres a dx8.1 emulator out yet, look at bcm it would be a nightmar to port because it reads alot of data from windows, video codecs directsound direct3d fonts etc, now even if you could emulate that youd need a er 8/9ghz pentium 6 and gigs of ram, im saying it should do what its designd to do, and even tho microsoft says win2k isnt made for games in reality it is think of xp its just an upgraded win2k kernal 5.0/5.1 i dont even think they made any major changes probly just added theams few wizards ie6/dx8.1 tweakd a few things and called it a day

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Guest Hellbinder[CE]

menchise,

You did read the quote that you used form me right???

Its says in plain english. "the CONCEPTS behind Windows were born at Xerox".

we use Red Hat, and indeed it does require you to imput your vertical refresh rate.

[ 02-11-2002, 03:51: Message edited by: Hellbinder ]

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quote:

You did read the quote that you used form me right???

Its says in plain english. "the CONCEPTS behind Windows were born at Xerox".

I know that the point and click environment was pioneered by Xerox (more specifically by Doug Engelbart after he invented the mouse), so what's your point? Any desktop environment that includes a point and click GUI originated from that, not just the Windows desktop.

quote:

we use Red Hat, and indeed it does require you to imput your vertical refresh rate.

I've never used Red Hat so I can't comment on that.

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quote:

Originally posted by Hellbinder:

menchise,

You did read the quote that you used form me right???

Its says in plain english. "the CONCEPTS behind Windows were born at Xerox".

we use Red Hat, and indeed it does require you to imput your vertical refresh rate.

Hmm, so do I.

As far as I know, the latest RH version that asked me the refresh rate for the X server was about 5.2.

RH7.2 (and 7.0 for that matter) does not ask that question during the standard installation procedure.

EDIT: don't know about RH6.x, since we skipped those versions. we upgraded 5.2 -> 7.0

[ 02-11-2002, 06:38: Message edited by: Riga ]

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quote:

Originally posted by Cmdr. WeeGee:

Go get a copy of 98se out of the bargin bin. Or, if you have the money to spend, WinXP Pro if your system can handle it, otherwise Win2k Pro.

There is no such thing as the bargin bin, when Micro$oft is concerned. Win98se, as well as WinME cost the same at most places, and 98se costs more than ME at some others.

I commend you Derek for at least trying.

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quote:

Originally posted by Greg Miller:

There is no such thing as the bargin bin, when Micro$oft is concerned. Win98se, as well as WinME cost the same at most places, and 98se costs
more
than ME at some others.

I've seen it in bargin bins before, if you look hard enough you'll find one or two places that have it. Otherwise, (Some of my friends are gonna kill me for this, but its already becoming more and more popular) PriceWatch. This is the internets bargin bin.

EDIT: I just looked at pricewatch and saw 98 for $18.

[ 02-11-2002, 16:13: Message edited by: Cmdr. WeeGee ]

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OK, I've used both Linux and Windows and the blessing of Linux is its free open-sourceness that allows lots of potential customization. Including different distros.

Which is also its biggest drawback. You mention on some Linux distros you need to specify a refresh rate. On others you don't. I've seen both myself. However, this is a case in point of how the sword of freedom is two-edged and can cut both ways.

steps onto soapbox

I would argue that this should never happen. Within an OS, there should be ONE universal environment, with ONE programming interface, under the control of ONE committee/group (similar to how OpenGL is governed). Pick KDE or Gnome as standard and toss the other. Pick a 3D API like OpenGL and toss out the rest. Pick a single sound API to implement and toss out the rest. Offer some standard utility dialog box screens (screen display properties, file open/save, printer setup) to discourage temptations to have others write duplicates of the same.

The benefits of having the above ONEness is unification of development effort. You start diluting the field with multiple APIs that can and do conflict, you dilute development effort and increase cost. Yes, you sacrifice diversity and some freedom when you do this. I would argue the diversity should be in the application software, not in the desktops or within the OS.

Gaming is an expensive business that doesn't seem to always have big returns on the investment, unless you be fortunate to write a great game. Modern Windows gaming already has that ONEness in devlopment. It therefore makes more sense to make games for Windows from a business standpoint since your development effort can stick to a single standard. Finagling out hardware oddities within a single API standard is hard enough without having to worry about umpteen different API interfaces to hardware drivers as well.

I predict that Linux gaming could take off if it matures to the point where there comes to be a high-level governing committee similar to what OpenGL has that has the right and authority to dictate high-level standards as in: "Thou shalt have X desktop. Thou shalt implement Y sound programming interface. Thou shalt implement Z 3D programming interface. Any further extensions made by individual distros are unofficial and must be submitted for cataloging to prevent conflicts, but may be considered for future addition to the standard." Sort of like a consensus-driven committee version of OpenGL for Linux. Call it "Linuxsoft".

quote:


Originally posted by Supreme Cmdr:

Linux gaming will NEVER come of age and anyone foolish enough to think otherwise, is going to end up down the same path.


I'm afraid I agree (hence the "could" in my words above). Linux missed the boat, and it may be too late.

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Possible hope for a future resurrection of Linux gaming: Ximian's "Mono" project

IF game development on Winboxen switches to use Managed C++ or C# as the language with NO funky Win32 API (P/Invoke) calls,

AND there is a .NET API for sound and 3D graphics (dunno if there is, haven't looked),

AND the Mono project succeeds,

THEN there maybe possible a direct means of porting Windows games to Linux, with little or no work done.

Dollars to donuts the first game portable in .NET/Mono will be Minesweeper.

[ 02-11-2002, 17:19: Message edited by: Joel Schultz ]

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Guest Hellbinder[CE]

Menchise the "point and click" envornment were used by only 2 major players. Apple and M$. (Amiga had a great OS and system also but made very poor business decisions)

Linux only recently included support for it and even that still totally *sucks* IMO.

The point being the point and click concepts followed by Plug$Play architecture and Object oriented enviornments lead us to Windows XP. Coupple that with the very sound multi tasking capabilities of Windows XP and Linux is a complete waste fo time.

Weather people like it or not the industry cannot thrive or even crawl forward in a Multi OS enviornment. There HAS to be one standard or the house of cards falls. Windows is that standard and in only 7 years of development(starting at win95/NT) has matured into a fantastic, Stable, dependable, EASY TO USE, Developer friendly, multi-tasking,multi-user system.

This is Something that Linux, with all its "free love" has not even come close to. Free anything will never achieve the quality or support it needs. If there is no drive behind it, no pressure, no goals, no accountability, no vision.....

what do you have?

Going back to Amiga. They were the only real company that could have and Should have overtaken Microsoft. It is sad that they went by the wayside.

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quote:

Within an OS, there should be ONE universal environment, with ONE programming interface, under the control of ONE committee/group (similar to how OpenGL is governed). Pick KDE or Gnome as standard and toss the other. Pick a 3D API like OpenGL and toss out the rest. Pick a single sound API to implement and toss out the rest. Offer some standard utility dialog box screens (screen display properties, file open/save, printer setup) to discourage temptations to have others write duplicates of the same.

First of all, Linux already has an openly adopted desktop environment standard: XFree86. KDE and GNOME are X-based, thus any software package that works in X will work in KDE and GNOME. Secondly, OpenGL is already an openly adopted standard. Finally, as long as you have the latest kernel and an X-based environment, you can potentially run just about any program written for Linux. That's what makes the system so great: as different as each distro is on the app level, they all have the same kernel, so you can customize as much as you like without sacrificing compatibility.

quote:

Linux gaming will NEVER come of age and anyone foolish enough to think otherwise, is going to end up down the same path.

Linux gaming is not as popular because it takes less effort to run games in Windows, which is a consequence of Linux being oriented toward computer savvy users. It's the same reason why Windows is not as popular as the gaming consoles, which is why Microsoft made the X-Box. However, that doesn't mean that Linux is bad for games; it just means that Linux game developers need to recognize their target user more clearly and adjust their model accordingly.

quote:

Menchise the "point and click" envornment were used by only 2 major players. Apple and M$.

Not anymore. So what's your point?

quote:

Linux only recently included support for it and even that still totally *sucks* IMO.

Linux has had support for it since 1994.

Which environments have you tried?

quote:

Windows is that standard and in only 7 years of development(starting at win95/NT) has matured into a fantastic, Stable, dependable, EASY TO USE, Developer friendly, multi-tasking,multi-user system.

Windows will never be as stable or dependable as Linux, regardless of its feature set. It's a simple fact of OS architecture (bloatware vs modularware).

I'm not familiar with XP's multi-user system, but if it features roaming user profiles in a network, you can bet that it sucks (hint: if it takes more than five seconds to log out, it has roaming profiles).

quote:

Going back to Amiga. They were the only real company that could have and Should have overtaken Microsoft. It is sad that they went by the wayside.

Commodore Amiga was oriented towards the home user. Businesses didn't like it. That's why it fell (although I think it's still used in some parts of Europe).

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