Guest $iLk Posted April 6, 2002 Report Share Posted April 6, 2002 goaliejerry, let me address your post. In order to get to the "root causes" of all of this, let's realize why they hate us. Okay first off let's dismantle Israel, and "push all the jews into the sea" since that seems to be one root cause. Another is the fact that we are not a Muslim theologically run country, let's alleviate that. You definately don't stop terrorists by doing *nothing* or by giving in to their demands. I could care less about "why they hate us" because it doesn't matter how they feel about us. One thing I do care about is things that they *do* to our citizens. I don't care what they feel, but I don't regret letting them know that to put their feelings into action means immediate death, or life imprisonment. They can hate all they want to, but they had better think twice about picking up that AK47 or suicide belt. Emotional decisions are pointless and won't happen if we stimulate their mental thought pattern with the "facts of life". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 6, 2002 Report Share Posted April 6, 2002 GoalieJerry, I am sorry, but that is some of the most naive stuff I have heard in a while. Change the world and everything will be better, you sound like some of the stuff Menchise says, but Menchise is a socialist and admits it. The only way to stop terrorism in it's tracks is to destroy it whenever it is found, PERIOD. Israel does NOT occupy that territory, THEY WON IT, fair and square. The land they took was used to stage the massive attack on them in the 6 day war. They hold it for thier own protection. If they give it back, I know exactly what will happen, the Arab nations, Iraq, Syria, and possibly Jordan will once again, attack Israel and bowl under the Palestinians, just as they did in the 6 day war. The Palestinians are a nomadic peoples, a mixture of Jordanians, Syrians, and others, who have been kicked out of thier own countries to be tossed to Israel as a pain in thier side. The Arab nations have NO compunction about killing the Palestinians to get to Israel, and that is exactly what they did in the 6 day war, and that is exactly what they will do again. The only way to fight terror is defeat it whenever it pops up it's head. Not to reward it, but to DESTROY it. The world has poor, the world has rich, the world has middle class, that is the way of human nature, and that will NOT change, no matter how much people wish to ignore that fact. No one is created equal, we have equal opportunity in this country, and that is all other people have as well. Equal opportunity is a lot different then EQUAL everything. Equal everything is Socialism and will fail, EVERY time. And has failed, EVERY time it is tried. THe Palestinians had the opportunity to work in Israel, to earn a good living, because they do NOT know how to do that in thier own territories. They do NOT start business's, they do NOT farm, they do not CREATE things, unless building belt bombs is creating something. They work in Israel, because Israel does ALL of these things, then they BOMB the Israeli's who created jobs for them, brought up thier standard of living for them. etc. Israel has done far more then enough for the Palestinians in the past, and now it is time to put them back in thier place, after a few years of peace, maybe, just maybe the Palestinians will be trustworthy enough to be granted thier own country, but they aren't trustworthy now, so they should be put down and put down HARD. They need to be put in a position where they are no longer capable of terrorising Israel, and Israel is doing EXACTLY the right thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Grayfox Posted April 6, 2002 Report Share Posted April 6, 2002 i swear jag... we must be long lost brothers or something... we think exactly alike... i just get tired of discussing this topic because theres nothing to talk about at work but this... i work graveyard hours and its slow... sue me nuff said bub Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menchise Posted April 7, 2002 Report Share Posted April 7, 2002 quote:The only way to stop terrorism in it's tracks is to destroy it whenever it is found, PERIOD.Stopping terrorism with terrorism doesn't work, and make no mistake, war is also terrorism. terrorism: 1. the use of terrorising methods. 2. the state of fear and submission so produced. 3. a method of resisting a government or of governing by deliberate acts of armed violence. war: 1. a conflict carried on by force of arms, as between nations or states, or between parties within a state; warfare (by land, or sea, or in the air). - The Macquarie Dictionary The popular definition of terrorism that is used in the media has been narrowed down to a definition of a "poor man's war" (when someone is incapable of directly challenging the military), and any form of counter-terrorism (fighting terrorism with more terrorism) by a favourably recognized state is defined as justice. If these definitions were true, then it can be argued that the 'founding fathers' of the USA were promoting terrorism when they wrote about the need for people's militias to keep the government accountable, hence the unpopularity of people's militias in the American media. It is a naive, hypocritical, and statist definition. It doesn't matter who is right or wrong and it doesn't matter whether it's necessary or unnecessary; terrorism is terrorism. To call it anything else because it's carried out by an allied military is naive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 7, 2002 Report Share Posted April 7, 2002 Sorry Menchise, but your definition of Terrorism DOES NOT fit mine. My definition of Terrorism is as follows. The Use of Force against Civilians in order to coerce or force a government to submit due to civilian casualties. That is terrorism, when you target civilians in order to intimidate. Israel used force in order to become a country, but they bombed and destroyed MILITARY targets, and gave fair warning when it was going to happen. To use fear and intimidation against a civilian population is immoral, wrong and just begs for reprisals. To say that the palestinians terrorist activity has the same moral standing as a declared war against another countries military is naive and just plain ridiculous. War is terror, YES, but it is NOT TERRORISM!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menchise Posted April 7, 2002 Report Share Posted April 7, 2002 quote:Sorry Menchise, but your definition of Terrorism DOES NOT fit mine. My definition of Terrorism is as follows. The Use of Force against Civilians in order to coerce or force a government to submit due to civilian casualties. That is terrorism, when you target civilians in order to intimidate.Are you saying that destroying a military force is not intimidating? If anything, it's more intimidating than killing civilians because soldiers are more heavily armed, which is why many groups who are not as heavily armed attack civilians in order to intimidate: they can't attack soldiers effectively. What would be more terrorizing? Lone bombers killing civilians because they don't like the way they live, or an army of soldiers taking control of how the civilians live? The Arabs tried it militarily and failed, so now they're resorting to attacks on civilians. quote:Israel used force in order to become a country, but they bombed and destroyed MILITARY targets, and gave fair warning when it was going to happen.Israel is capable of doing it without risking defeat. quote:To use fear and intimidation against a civilian population is immoral, wrong and just begs for reprisals.I agree, but I think civilians would be even more fearful and intimidated if their country was taken over. quote:To say that the palestinians terrorist activity has the same moral standing as a declared war against another countries military is naive and just plain ridiculous.A declaration of war has about as much moral standing as a pre-Reformation indulgence (in other words, none). Telling someone that they're going to be killed before killing them does not make killing any less terrorizing or immoral. The only difference between them is the level of confidence the killer has in succeeding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steffen Frey Posted April 7, 2002 Report Share Posted April 7, 2002 Originally posted by Jaguar: [QB]Sorry Menchise, but your definition of Terrorism DOES NOT fit mine. My definition of Terrorism is as follows. The Use of Force against Civilians in order to coerce or force a government to submit due to civilian casualties. That is terrorism, when you target civilians in order to intimidate.[QE] So you say that bombing civilian targets is terrorism? Who said that to the Allied Forces as they bombed German cities to ashes or the cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were annihilated by the US with the Bomb? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duncan Idaho Posted April 7, 2002 Report Share Posted April 7, 2002 Heh... I posted, but changed my mind about getting involved in this one. Idaho [ 04-07-2002, 08:16: Message edited by: Duncan Idaho ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 7, 2002 Report Share Posted April 7, 2002 quote: So you say that bombing civilian targets is terrorism? Who said that to the Allied Forces as they bombed German cities to ashes or the cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were annihilated by the US with the Bomb? I was not alive at that point, and have a few ideas as to the how's and why's of that situation. THe moral equivalency argument comparing these 2 TOTALLY different situations again is ridiculous. Americans did NOT strap bombs to themselves, find the most crowded area that they could and then BLOW themselves up in order to kill and maim as many civilians as possible. Women, Children and babies. And Menchise, are you saying that war is wrong? The use of force to cow or destroy an enemy that is bent on destroying you is NOT wrong. The Palestinians have had MANY opportunities for peace with Israel, but peace is NOT what they want. They wish to DESTROY Israel, NOTHING LESS. It is moral and right for Israel to go to war against the PA and the terrorists that they support. Sometimes war is NECESSARY, and in this case it is past necessary, it is a REQUIREMENT!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soback Posted April 7, 2002 Report Share Posted April 7, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Steffen Frey: Originally posted by Jaguar: [QB]Sorry Menchise, but your definition of Terrorism DOES NOT fit mine. My definition of Terrorism is as follows. The Use of Force against Civilians in order to coerce or force a government to submit due to civilian casualties. That is terrorism, when you target civilians in order to intimidate.[QE] So you say that bombing civilian targets is terrorism? Who said that to the Allied Forces as they bombed German cities to ashes or the cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were annihilated by the US with the Bomb?Shame on your. You should know your history. In the begining of the war allies didn't carpet bomb cities and any area that was close to civillians. After the Axis showed no restraint in their bombing runs (they did bomb cities), only then the Allies started bombing population centers. Lesson: maybe Israel should do the same, and since palestinians seem to specifically target civillians, then what I would LOVE to see is Israeli armed forces taking out hundreds and thousands of palestinians untill the palestinian population overthrows their government, agrees to peace and to the land that Israel is WILLING to give them so that they can form their own country. And if you think that it's very bloody and harsh, then go ahead, talk about your "peace" negotiations for the next 50 more years (it has already been nearly 50 years since Israel was formed) and see how much more life will be lost. At least if palestinins overthrow their defunct government and get rid of their extreemists (shut them up one way or another) then, and only then will you have something resembling peace in the middle east. [ 04-07-2002, 14:19: Message edited by: Soback ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fractux Posted April 7, 2002 Report Share Posted April 7, 2002 I've been having debates about this on various discussion groups, and here's a short summary of what I can say now. What is happening now is a product of historical events that have happened and of political ambitions. While boths sides have done horrible things to eachother, this does not excuse either side to take actions to escalate the conflict. As things stand right now, the Israeli army has cut off any chance the Palestinian authori could ever have to resolve this crisis. The Israli intent is clear, and that is to wipe out the Palestinian State. The Israeli army is currently giving the Palestinians two options, either sit back and watch us destoy your state, or fight back. That is why people are upset. I don't know if peace in the middle east could ever have been, or be possible, but I can tell you that what is happening now is wrong, and what is being done is wrong. And I say this because this conflict has the possibility of eascalating. Look at all the protests going on, and all the tension building up. If this does not stop, something will burst and another country may jump into the fray. As soon as this happens, we will find a very nasty war on our hands. What some people thought would be small conflicts in the past, and that stated off as small local conflicts, have turned out to be some of the biggest wars this world has seen. [ 04-07-2002, 14:39: Message edited by: Fractux ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest $iLk Posted April 7, 2002 Report Share Posted April 7, 2002 Menchise I liked your last post. I don't agree with your position but it's a few interesting points you made. I can only hope that Israel continues it's policy of saying screw everything the UN and we say and we can let them take care of many of our middle east difficulties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 7, 2002 Report Share Posted April 7, 2002 "In the begining of the war allies didn't carpet bomb cities and any area that was close to civillians. After the Axis showed no restraint in their bombing runs (they did bomb cities), only then the Allies started bombing population centers." Actually, the British were the ones that started bombing cities. They bombed a city (which they claimed was an "accident"), the axis retaliated by bombing london.. and thats when it began. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 7, 2002 Report Share Posted April 7, 2002 Fractux, I so not understand what you are saying at all, what I see is that Israel should just sit back and let the Palestinians SLAUGHTER thier civilian citizens. I DON'T THINK SO, it is time, PAST TIME, for Israel to STOP this carnage and push the Palestinains back to a point where they cry uncle. The only thing that terrorists understand is OVERWHELMING force. And that is what they are getting, FINALLY!!! The Israeli's should destroy EVERY building that has had ANYTHING to do with a terrorist, if a terrorist hid there, DESTROY it, if a Terrorist lived there DESTROY it, if a TERRORIST visited there, DESTROY it. It will show the Palestinians that if they help terrorists, are friends with terrorists, or attempt to help terrorism in ANY way shape or form, THEY WILL LOSE EVERYTHING that they hold dear. IT WILL BE DESTROYED, so let the terrorists burn, and do not attempt to help them and you will be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fractux Posted April 7, 2002 Report Share Posted April 7, 2002 Jaguar, take a look here... http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/mid...ast/default.stm Read through all the news articles. quote: I so not understand what you are saying at all, what I see is that Israel should just sit back and let the Palestinians SLAUGHTER thier civilian citizens. Now, firstly, nowhere did I say this, so I don't know why you're saying this. Note also that Palestinian civilians are getting slaughtered too. quote: I DON'T THINK SO, it is time, PAST TIME, for Israel to STOP this carnage and push the Palestinains back to a point where they cry uncle. The only thing that terrorists understand is OVERWHELMING force This implies that all palestinians are terrorists, which is not obviously not true. quote: The Israeli's should destroy EVERY building that has had ANYTHING to do with a terrorist, if a terrorist hid there, DESTROY it, if a Terrorist lived there DESTROY it, if a TERRORIST visited there, DESTROY it.Aply logic like that to the US.. I guess they'll have to blow up all those airfields where the terrorists were trained... and those hotels too... Hmmm, doesn't sound so rosy does it? quote: It will show the Palestinians that if they help terrorists, are friends with terrorists, or attempt to help terrorism in ANY way shape or form, THEY WILL LOSE EVERYTHING that they hold dear. IT WILL BE DESTROYED, so let the terrorists burn, and do not attempt to help them and you will be fine. Once again, just look at the facts. As soon as one side attacks, the other retaliates, regardless of who attacked first. This conflict is not just aout terrorism and routing out terrorists. My post was not there to start an argument, I though it was rather moderate. But you did not deal with the issues I stated. Notice that I said the following: quote: While boths sides have done horrible things to eachother, this does not excuse either side to take actions to escalate the conflict.I'm not taking sides here, but I am saying that Israel's current military operation is not going to solve anything. [ 04-07-2002, 17:06: Message edited by: Fractux ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 7, 2002 Report Share Posted April 7, 2002 bah, we should shove both sides into the ocean and build a Disneyworld in place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aramike Posted April 7, 2002 Report Share Posted April 7, 2002 quote:There is no excuse for tanks either.Read: Suicide bombers attacking civilians while the government looks the other way. Seems like more than an excuse; seems like a reason. quote:and the West sells tanks and attack helicopters to a state with nuclear weapons. No difference....tanks and helicopters to be used as defensive weaponry, and which have ONLY been deployed EVER in retaliation. Nuclear weapons are only a deterrent. Suicide bombers are OFFENSIVE weapons that target civilians. If you don't see the difference, that's just pacifistic ignorance.Both sides need to back off from their segregationist positions, which means abandoning the whole concept of a Palestinian state and an Israeli state and forming either an integrated state or a stateless association.By the very nature of defense, both sides don't need to back off. The aggressors need to back off. The agressors are the Palestinians. That is not disputed by any. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Schacher Posted April 7, 2002 Report Share Posted April 7, 2002 There is one indisputable fact (I hope): since Israel moved into the Palestinian territory, the suicide bombings have stopped. quote:As things stand right now, the Israeli army has cut off any chance the Palestinian authori could ever have to resolve this crisis. The Israli intent is clear, and that is to wipe out the Palestinian State. The Israeli army is currently giving the Palestinians two options, either sit back and watch us destoy your state, or fight back. That is why people are upset.I think you have this backwards. It has always been the stated intent of the PLO to wipe out Israel. The PLO wants a Palestinian state without an Israeli state. The Israelis want their own state as well as a Palestinian state. You can't give the Palestinians a chance to resolve a conflict that they started and escalated in the first place. The Palestinians have been kicked out of all the Arab countries that took them in because, once there, they start the rabble-rousing, rock-throwing, and bombing. They're like a bad relative who won't leave once invited in. Ask Jordan. Ask Lebanon. Ask Israel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duncan Idaho Posted April 7, 2002 Report Share Posted April 7, 2002 Kudos, Steve, That's actually the most intelligent post I've seen in this debate. Idaho Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Põdi Posted April 7, 2002 Report Share Posted April 7, 2002 I'm going to make a few points here, the probably run away. Very quickly. Firstly, the closest that Israel/Palestine came to an agreement, and the most peaceful period over the last decade or so, was when Rabin (excuse spelling) and Arafat were in continous negotiation, until Rabin was assassinated by a Jewish extremist. Secondly, IIRC, the current Intifada was sparked off by Ariel Sharon visiting a holy Muslim site, much against the wishes of Rabak's government. The straw that broke the camels' back? Thirdly, Sharon is detested by Palestinians as they hold him directly responsible for the massacres in the Beirut refugee camps in '82. I don't condone suicide bombers, neither do I condone the use of tanks, or the fact that wounded Palestinians must share an ambulance with the dead because the Israelis will only let one ambulance through at a time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dnoyeB! Posted April 8, 2002 Report Share Posted April 8, 2002 Wow. Who knew colonialization would destroy the world? How stupid Britian was for trying that foolishness. If we could hit "undo" enough times to get those British back in their bottles, the world would be a better place. I feel as if Israel has stirred the hornets nest with their actions. And now that the hornets are stinging, of course they are going to protect themselves. But I recognise them for stirring it the first place. If Israel can keep the Palestinians roused up and bombing, then they can maintain the moral authority necessary to continue to "clense" the area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 8, 2002 Report Share Posted April 8, 2002 Give me a FRICKING break, ALL OF YOU!! Sharon had the Palestinians PERMISSION to go to the Temple Mount, HE GOT PERMISSION FIRST!!!! HELLO!!! The fact that some extremists had a cow is NOT Sharons fault!! The Palestinians are the ones responsible for Israel striking back, no one elses. Israel is defending itself PERIOD!!! The Palestinians started this disaster, and now they are going to get thier butts kicked because of it!! They started it, Israel will finish it, END OF STORY!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goaliejerry Posted April 8, 2002 Report Share Posted April 8, 2002 I'd like to address if I may some replys to my post, and Jaguars rehtoric in general. To $iLk: Your Quote: "In order to get to the "root causes" of all of this, let's realize why they hate us. Okay first off let's dismantle Israel, and "push all the jews into the sea" since that seems to be one root cause. Another is the fact that we are not a Muslim theologically run country, let's alleviate that. You definately don't stop terrorists by doing *nothing* or by giving in to their demands. I could care less about "why they hate us" because it doesn't matter how they feel about us. One thing I do care about is things that they *do* to our citizens. I don't care what they feel, but I don't regret letting them know that to put their feelings into action means immediate death, or life imprisonment." First of all, your cleary stating your own feelings with out addressing ANYTHING I said. I never said lets dismanlte Israel, nor to "push all the jews into the sea." That is completely unrelated to the root cause of the conflict, which goes FAR beyond any recent actions. We cannot simply go around the world and say "screw everyone, only we matter." Self-centered ideas such as this, to impose our will on the world as we see fit, and is pure naivety, which I will address next. To Jaguar: Naive, lets examine the word. 1 : marked by unaffected simplicity 2 a : deficient in worldly wisdom or informed judgment b : not previously subjected to experimentation or a particular experimental situation ; also : not having previously used a particular drug (as marijuana) 3 : Self-taught, primitive Definition one, marked by unaffected simplicity, well the complexity of the issues we're dealing with rules that definition right out. Definition two, we can disregard b as it does not apply here, however a is the sense you attempted to use. Deficient in worldly wisdom or informed judgment. The second part; informed judgement; seeing as your decision that I was "naive" was based on less then a half a page of text rules out any possibility for validity of your claim, for to base a judgement of my base of knowledge or experiance with only a snippet to go by is like attempting to devine the plot line to a novel by reading one paragraph from the middle. The same logic holds true for definition a, for you have no idea what I know or have experienced or think. So it seems that your calling me "naive" is in itself marked by unaffected simplicity, or rather it was naive itself. Now on to your claims. It's quite obvious from reading your posts that you are reactionary in nature. A problem to you doesn't exist until it's directly in front of your face, or when the passenger liners stirke the sky scrapers. Believe me, I was and am horrifed, outraged, and wholly supportive and in complete agreement with our war on terror. I see the need for our killing members of al-queda and rounding up terrorists. Those are my ingrained beliefs. I'm in air force rotc and I love the art of warfare, I feel that the world in it's present form was shaped wholey by the phenomena of human organisations formed into groups with common interests coming into conflict with each other. War is both nessecary and ultimatly benificial. It is important to me however, to be able to take a step back and view WHY I feel as I do, and REALIZE that everything I think is based wholly on the worlds relation to ME, and no other relation. Some of the things you say disturb me to think that there are actually people in the world like you. "Israel does NOT occupy that territory, THEY WON IT, fair and square. The land they took was used to stage the massive attack on them in the 6 day war. They hold it for thier own protection. If they give it back, I know exactly what will happen, the Arab nations, Iraq, Syria, and possibly Jordan will once again, attack Israel and bowl under the Palestinians, just as they did in the 6 day war. The Palestinians are a nomadic peoples, a mixture of Jordanians, Syrians, and others, who have been kicked out of thier own countries to be tossed to Israel as a pain in thier side." They won it. It's a large game with prizes? Paid for in blood? Winning implys a happy event, such as winning some money or a new car. Nobody in Isreal, I assure you, was happy when the war ended after six days. Elated yes, that the threat to the soverinty had be quelled, but in no way pleased, for anyone pleased with death, truly pleased, is simply immoral. Fair and Square? That phrase implies according to the rules, and the important part, uncontestable. If that conflict's outcome was uncontestable, we wouldn't be having this discussion today. Please friend, don't, as so many reactionarys do when I post on message boards, misconstrue what I am saying as support for the destruction of Isreal. THAT COULD NOT BE FARTHER FROM THE TRUTH. What saddens me is the perpetual cycle of death that exists in the region, and I only wish, (however COMPLETELY understand that it will never happen) that it would end. You read what I say and think and type "Change the world and everything will be better," as if your mocking me. But is it not true? Not gonna happen, but it doesn't hurt to contemplate, which is all that I am doing. I'm a realist my friend, I know that none of this will change, and no idealistic plan will ever cure the ails of the region. But to look deep into a conflict such as this reveals much about human nature itself. I agree with you, Isreal needs to possess that land for their security, however you claim that "the Arab nations, Iraq, Syria, and possibly Jordan will once again, attack Israel and bowl under the Palestinians, just as they did in the 6 day war." Unlikly, seeing as the sole super power in the world, the United States, would not allow that sort of escalation of conflict in the middle east, and besides, the Isreali military could defeat any conventional threat from any of those opposing countrys. Don't forget, worse comes to worse, Isreal has the bomb, those countries do not. The palestinians are nomadic not by choice but by circumstance. This is important to highlight, for your reference to it seems to be for the effect of reducing their value as humans, as if they are rats who plauge whoever they come in contact with. VERY DANGEROUS AND ALMOST SICKENING. "The only way to fight terror is defeat it whenever it pops up it's head. Not to reward it, but to DESTROY it. The world has poor, the world has rich, the world has middle class, that is the way of human nature, and that will NOT change, no matter how much people wish to ignore that fact." Who said anything about rewarding it? Whatever do you mean? Who has suggested or even hinted at such an idea? Your use of it here is to highlight your arguement, but a close look revels it's hollow. As to the remainder of your paragraph, I'm not implying any such thing, I'm not a socialist by any means, I love our country and her ideals more then you know or would care to admit. Poverty is not whats behind any of this, the imposition of our ideals on unwilling cultures is what fuels anti-American hatred, but people like you ignore the causes, paying attention only to the effects and the imediate and impermanant resolution of such effects. Pops it head up. You acknowledge that terroism pops up, but is it not logical that if the reasons used by terrorists to justify their actions were removed from their head, that they wouldn't commit terror? Thats really ALL I'M SAYING. NOTHING MORE. "No one is created equal, we have equal opportunity in this country, and that is all other people have as well. Equal opportunity is a lot different then EQUAL everything. Equal everything is Socialism and will fail, EVERY time. And has failed, EVERY time it is tried." Again, this is your rehetoric, and has nothing to do with anything I said. "THe Palestinians had the opportunity to work in Israel, to earn a good living, because they do NOT know how to do that in thier own territories. They do NOT start business's, they do NOT farm, they do not CREATE things, unless building belt bombs is creating something. They work in Israel, because Israel does ALL of these things, then they BOMB the Israeli's who created jobs for them, brought up thier standard of living for them. etc." Your grouping of an ENTIRE people into one tightly constrained catagory is, again, disturbing. They don't start businesses, they don't farm; how do a people, who have lived in abject poverty for decades, do such things? How do people whose lives are restricted by an imposed government, whose freedoms are not equal to those that rule them, lay down and take it? History has shown that they won't, and that is what we are seeing here. It equates to the freeing of all the slaves by Lincoln, how does an entire population of uneducated completely impoverished people simply jump into society and be able to live with the same quality of life as the majority? We see TO THIS DAY that this has yet to be accomplished, and many problems remain HERE in America as a result of this massive influx of pennyless people with attached stigma. Isreal also does all of these things through the support of America, whose orgininal intentions in complete and total support of (and in some ways propping of) Isreal were motivated only by the desire to have a western foothold in the middle east to prevent the spread of communism during the cold war. You talk about Palestinians as if they are helpless children who are incapable of self sufficentcy. Your prejudice is glaring. "Israel has done far more then enough for the Palestinians in the past, and now it is time to put them back in thier place, after a few years of peace, maybe, just maybe the Palestinians will be trustworthy enough to be granted thier own country, but they aren't trustworthy now, so they should be put down and put down HARD. They need to be put in a position where they are no longer capable of terrorising Israel, and Israel is doing EXACTLY the right thing." You talk about Isreali and Palestinian relations as if they are one way, that Isreal does all the work and wonders why the Palestinians aren't grateful. And the one line I think clearly demonstrates your crooked bias here is "now it is time to put them back in thier place." Oh really? So oppression is the way to go? Make sure you cripple their ability to function independantly of Isreal to promote their eventual independance? I will not even begin to, for their is no need to, explain the absurdity of what you say. Your verbage implys that "thier" (i.e. An entire population of men and women) place is second class dependance on a government that clearly does not view Palestinians as equals, and no reactionary, not COMPLETE EQUALS BUT EQUAL IN THE SENSE THAT THEY ARE JUST AS ENTITLED TO THE RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS AS ANYOTHER HUMAN BEING. And yes reactionary, anyone who terror bombs deserves to pay whatever price society deems fit, I firmly believe that, and I also know that terroism has no positive effects FOR ANYONE. "The only way to stop terrorism in it's tracks is to destroy it whenever it is found, PERIOD." Thats just false, and I'm sad you can't see that. Remove the hatred and no one desires to kill anyone. Terror is carried out with simple tools, is Isreal to remove all pipes from Palestinian land and ensure that NO gunpowder gets through? Of course not. You have to change peoples minds to stop them from performing certain actions. "To use fear and intimidation against a civilian population is immoral, wrong and just begs for reprisals. To say that the palestinians terrorist activity has the same moral standing as a declared war against another countries military is naive and just plain ridiculous." I agree whole heartedly. It is important to realize however, and again THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REALIZE, that the retailiation imposed upon the perpetrators is ONLY for our satisfaction and re-affirmation of security. IT DOES NOTHING, NOTHING, TO DISUADE FUTURE TERRORISTS, AND MAY VERY WELL INCITE MORE TO THE CAUSE. Just as a life or death sentance does not disuade a murderer who kills in the heat of the moment, so to does the far less concreat possibility of military reprisals disuade a religious fanatic filled with fervor. "The Palestinians have had MANY opportunities for peace with Israel, but peace is NOT what they want. They wish to DESTROY Israel, NOTHING LESS." NOT TRUE. They want a self governed homeland. Their desire isn't to destroy Isreal, only to be free of Isreali influence. "I DON'T THINK SO, it is time, PAST TIME, for Israel to STOP this carnage and push the Palestinains back to a point where they cry uncle. The only thing that terrorists understand is OVERWHELMING force. And that is what they are getting, FINALLY!!!" How silly, isn't it an inability to challange the overwhelming force of Isreal's militray that pushed them to use terrorist tactics in the first place? "The Israeli's should destroy EVERY building that has had ANYTHING to do with a terrorist, if a terrorist hid there, DESTROY it, if a Terrorist lived there DESTROY it, if a TERRORIST visited there, DESTROY it. It will show the Palestinians that if they help terrorists, are friends with terrorists, or attempt to help terrorism in ANY way shape or form, THEY WILL LOSE EVERYTHING that they hold dear. IT WILL BE DESTROYED, so let the terrorists burn, and do not attempt to help them and you will be fine." You are a disturbing individual, and all I can say is that I am glad you have no influence on the world stage whatsoever. DON'T YOU SEE!!!! RESENTMENT IS WHAT CAUSES PALESTINIAN HATRED OF ISREAL, AND ACTIONS SUCH AS THESE WOULD ONLY SHOW THAT ISREAL IS RUTHLESS AND THUSLY INCREASE RESENT TOWARDS THEM. "The Palestinians are the ones responsible for Israel striking back, no one elses. Israel is defending itself PERIOD!!! The Palestinians started this disaster, and now they are going to get thier butts kicked because of it!! They started it, Israel will finish it, END OF STORY!!!" So Isreal had nothing to do in Isreal's striking back? You say things that are completly contradictory with out even knowing it. It takes two to tango, and Isreal is not the helpless victim in all of this, rather there are two diametrically opposed cultures in direct conflict with each other whose conflict is so complex that greator minds then yours or mine have POURED over it and come up completely empty. When fighting a counter-insurgency, which is really what Isreal is doing, the problem lies in the nature of the conflict. In a counter-insurgency, the goal is to affect peoples minds and change their beliefs so that they will not oppose the government. Conventional war entails fighting using conventional tools, i.e. tanks and soldiers, to take and hold land, which is what Isreal is doing. Being superiour at one helps not in the least bit in the other. And I just want to clairify this, so please, if anything read this. I find it sickening that terrorists prey on civilians and kill innocent people indiscriminantly. The current conflict in the middle east is simply horrible, and Isreal is fullfilling her only real option, and I do not oppose it. The purpose of anything I say is not to lend sympathy to mass murderers, but simply to cause us to examine ourselves and our actions, because every action has a reaction, and nothing happens without a REASON. [ 04-08-2002, 02:12: Message edited by: goaliejerry ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 8, 2002 Report Share Posted April 8, 2002 not to mention the israelies have nukes. Any arab attack that overruns them (unlikely) before the US can intervene will result in israel lobbing them plutonium firecrackers at every arab nation attacking them and around them "just in case" (sort of like the US/USSR's plans of nuking the entire world if ANYONE lobbed a nuke.. you had to get rid of the aggressor and make sure everyone else got just as fukd up so they wouldnt be stronger than you after the dust settled). Israel was about to nuke iraq during the gulf war.. they fueled and deployed their missiles at iraq.. it was only because of the PATRIOTS and a hell of a lot of promises by the US that Israel did not launch them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menchise Posted April 8, 2002 Report Share Posted April 8, 2002 quote:And Menchise, are you saying that war is wrong?I have already written that war is also terrorism. In other words, yes. quote:The use of force to cow or destroy an enemy that is bent on destroying you is NOT wrong.To do what one must do to defend oneself is unavoidable. I don't blame anyone for that. I simply choose not to excuse the act with a euphemism that tries to make it sound less immoral. It doesn't matter whether Israel is defending itself or not, it is still fighting terrorism with terrorism. To say any different is to make it okay for the situation to continue. Force cannot contain a situation forever. quote:The Palestinians have had MANY opportunities for peace with Israel, but peace is NOT what they want. They wish to DESTROY Israel, NOTHING LESS.Of course the Palestinians want the State of Israel to go and they will not give up. However, most of them are still willing to make peace with the Jewish people. That's the key: with the exception of the extremists, the Palestinians only hate the State, not the People. Unfortunately, the extremists have the authority, and all they want is to replace the Jewish state with an Arab state. That's one of the two obstacles. The Israelis are willing to cease hostilities with the Palestinian people and to allow them to have a separate state, but the Palestinians don't want a partitioned Palestine, and the Israelis will not allow Palestinians who used to live within Israel's borders to return to their homes; not because of security, but because they want to maintain a Jewish majority in the population (in other words, a racial democracy) in an effort to preserve the State of Israel. That's the other obstacle: the Israelis are only willing to make peace as long as they are still the dominant power. Here is my position, and as far as I can tell, it's my final revision. This war will end in one of three ways: 1. Either the Palestinians or the Israelis or both are wiped off the face of the earth. 2. Israel and the Palestinian territories are absorbed into a republic with Arab and Jewish representation. 3. All states and centralized governments are abolished and replaced with an association of working communities (hey, I'm a socialist ). [ 04-08-2002, 09:45: Message edited by: Menchise ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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