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Mandatory Military / Civil Service


Lotharr
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Originally posted by Charles Lindsey:

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Oh yes you can! It worked marvelously in Vietnam, remember?

Way too much of an inside joke. Care to explain?


Not really an inside joke. Soldiers in Vietnam were mostly draftees. They found themselves fighting each other constantly, going so far as to toss fragmentation grenades in the tents of officers and soldiers who weren't well-liked. That's where the term "frag" came from, by the way.
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no i just find it slightly amusing that you hash on a capitalist system when you live in one and are successful in it...

It's what I would need to do in order to continue succeeding in it that offends me. There are two choices in capitalism (and any other class-divided system): exploit or be exploited. Neither of these choices are appealing to my conscience or dignity, especially when they are the foundations of war, poverty, and state-sponsored prejudice. I don't understand why looking beyond one's own self-interest is amusing, especially when you claim that such a behaviour is a reason why military service should be a requirement for citizenship.

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move to a socialist system and try to be as successful, or even a communist system... guarenteed you wont be so quick to mention the "shortcomings" of a capitalism...

Depends on the socialism. I equate success with balanced happiness, not the accumulation of excess.

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perhaps ungrateful is the word im looking for.

I am grateful that I have not been crushed underfoot by the system or screwed over too much, but I'm not that grateful, especially when I have to claw my way over others to stay that way.

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now as for the military service thing... once and for all. im gonna quote from an author who pretty much nailed the emotion right on the head. "through voluntary and difficult service, the soldier places the welfare of the GROUP ahead of personal advancement" also there is the sense of pride one has in actually having the cajones to stand up and voluntarily defend the state. with his life if need be.

Keyword: Voluntary.

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i will look upon a fellow veteran with more esteem and respect than some college book worm who has no practical experience in what the hell is going on around him.

I'm getting sick of the idea that university students live in a bubble. Everything that happens out there happens on campus. There are workloads, deadlines, sleepless nights, laws, media, a crime rate, political conflicts...the only thing that's missing is overt business interest, and even that's creeping up these days. So don't tell me that I have no practical experience! Universities are just microcosms of the real world with bigger libraries.

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It stayed on topic?

LOL!

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Guest $iLk

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Depends on the socialism. I equate success with balanced happiness, not the accumulation of excess.

I call this self-inflicted guilt at having over-achieved others and attempting to project your self-guilt as culpability for society as a whole.

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I don't understand why looking beyond one's own self-interest is amusing, especially when you claim that such a behaviour is a reason why military service should be a requirement for citizenship.

I find forcing someone to look beyond themselves is less than amusing.

When you talk about changing society to fit this perfect little mold in your head, exactly what you are talking about is FORCING someone to do what you think is best for them, and some of the greatest tyranny in history has been wrought by leaders deciding what is best for their people, against their people's wishes.

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I am grateful that I have not been crushed underfoot by the system or screwed over too much, but I'm not that grateful, especially when I have to claw my way over others to stay that way.

So you would rather be able to stay slothful like the underachievers and still be able to maintain your lifestyle?

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I'm getting sick of the idea that university students live in a bubble. Everything that happens out there happens on campus. There are workloads, deadlines, sleepless nights, laws, media, a crime rate, political conflicts...the only thing that's missing is overt business interest, and even that's creeping up these days. So don't tell me that I have no practical experience! Universities are just microcosms of the real world with bigger libraries.

Delusions of grandeur. You aren't going to save the world with your "intellectualness". Once you get out of your university, and have to earn your own living, I forsee that you will hate having to work to stay ahead, and come to one of two conclusions:

1. Capitalism is hard, it would be better to let others do the hard work and me benefit.

2. Although it is hard, I feel a sense of pride and accomplishment, and find it unfair that I'm having to carry along underachievers with my taxes.

Let real life experience bite you in the @$$, and then you'll know what you are talking about. Everything you spout is purely philosophical, and has no basis in reality of the way things actually work. You hate having to work so hard, and feel so bad about it, that you are whining like a little kid who realizes that his parents won't buy him a toy every time he goes to the store, and want to change the entire concept of world reality in order to fit some grand scheme of "fairness" that exists in your mind - and which surely must work because YOU thought of it.

I'm not going to deny that on paper it sounds good. In practice it is a statistical improbability, and completely unworkable. To work as you say it will is an impossibility.

Why you cling to an idea that cannot stand up to the irrefutable truth of real life common sense is beyond me, and to further compound your stubborness you think up arguments that attempt to explain away these common sense arguments so that they do not exist, so that the fairy tale of Karl Marx and the Seven Dwarves can continue.

If you think that you can convince every human being on the planet to pass up snatching a dollar off of the coffee table in your house if you were to let them walk in and you turn your back, that is the only way you can possibly convince yourself that human nature does not affect human actions and decisions.

You can not stop every person from trying to screw another person over. If you think that by instituting a system that relies on perfection is going to solve anything, you are a nutcase.

I see people arrested, get out of jail, repeat the same stupid crime, go back to jail, repeat again, etc. People don't change their nature. You can't change it with social institutions. The very fact that the world is so divided on mindset, and culture, means that they wouldn't simply erase social and economic lines and live in harmony.

It will not happen in our lifetime, maybe in a few hundred years, but not now.

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I call this self-inflicted guilt at having over-achieved others and attempting to project your self-guilt as culpability for society as a whole.

I don't feel guilty about doing what it takes to survive comfortably. My point is that there is a less destructive way of working for oneself.

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I find forcing someone to look beyond themselves is less than amusing.

So do I. I'm just pointing out why I don't support the system despite my favourable position within it.

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So you would rather be able to stay slothful like the underachievers and still be able to maintain your lifestyle?

I have no problem with productive hard work, and I completely disagree with your claim that 'underachievers' are invariably slothful. The 'underachievers' do most of the hard work these days while the exploiters receive most of the benefits.

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Delusions of grandeur. You aren't going to save the world with your "intellectualness".

I never said that I could. It takes a popular stand by the people to change things for the people.

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Once you get out of your university, and have to earn your own living, I forsee that you will hate having to work to stay ahead, and come to one of two conclusions:

1. Capitalism is hard, it would be better to let others do the hard work and me benefit.

2. Although it is hard, I feel a sense of pride and accomplishment, and find it unfair that I'm having to carry along underachievers with my taxes.

You need to clean that crystal ball of yours. University students are not the only people who are against capitalism, and many of these students are earning their living simultaneously.

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Let real life experience bite you in the @$$, and then you'll know what you are talking about. Everything you spout is purely philosophical, and has no basis in reality of the way things actually work. You hate having to work so hard, and feel so bad about it, that you are whining like a little kid who realizes that his parents won't buy him a toy every time he goes to the store, and want to change the entire concept of world reality in order to fit some grand scheme of "fairness" that exists in your mind - and which surely must work because YOU thought of it.

No need to get presumptuous or personal. This thread is hot enough without you accusing me of arrogance.

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I'm not going to deny that on paper it sounds good. In practice it is a statistical improbability, and completely unworkable. To work as you say it will is an impossibility.

The way I say it is not the only way. I'm just a newbie formulating from what I have learned so far (you may have noticed that I revise my proposals over time). There are many many socialists who are a hundred times more knowledgeable about the topic than I am.

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Why you cling to an idea that cannot stand up to the irrefutable truth of real life common sense is beyond me, and to further compound your stubborness you think up arguments that attempt to explain away these common sense arguments so that they do not exist, so that the fairy tale of Karl Marx and the Seven Dwarves can continue.

If you think that you can convince every human being on the planet to pass up snatching a dollar off of the coffee table in your house if you were to let them walk in and you turn your back, that is the only way you can possibly convince yourself that human nature does not affect human actions and decisions.

I'm not saying that crime would cease to exist, but there is no conclusive evidence that criminal behaviour is within the inherent nature of humanity.

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You can not stop every person from trying to screw another person over. If you think that by instituting a system that relies on perfection is going to solve anything, you are a nutcase.

Socialism does not require perfection to work.

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I see people arrested, get out of jail, repeat the same stupid crime, go back to jail, repeat again, etc. People don't change their nature. You can't change it with social institutions.

Why do you assume that all criminal behaviour is within the nature of the people who are committing it? There is a variety of circumstances that can drive people to do things that are not within their nature. One example is when drug addicts steal to fund their habit.

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The very fact that the world is so divided on mindset, and culture, means that they wouldn't simply erase social and economic lines and live in harmony.

In every culture that has class division, there is a majority of working people. All working people, regardless of mindset or culture, have a common interest, even though most are unaware of it (usually because the state distracts them with prejudicial propaganda about other cultures). That common interest is the ending of class division.

[ 05-12-2002, 10:28: Message edited by: Menchise ]

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Thanks for the explanation.

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Soldiers in Vietnam were mostly draftees.

That I remember/knew.

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They found themselves fighting each other constantly, going so far as to toss fragmentation grenades in the tents of officers and soldiers who weren't well-liked.

That I did not know, thanks.

And here everyone is talking about mandatory military service like it will solve about half of society's problem by instilling a sense of teamwork, discipline, and responsibility upon young adults.

Sorry people, I really don't want Mr. Delusional Dementia knowing how to operate weapons.

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That's where the term "frag" came from, by the way.

Files away.

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Sorry people, I really don't want Mr. Delusional Dementia knowing how to operate weapons

Heh...too late....ever get a chance to talk to an infantry soldier from the 82 Airborne....just don't make any sudden movements and you should be ok....heh heh....

No...but really....between the NRA and the great gangland breeding grounds we are knee deep in it......

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Socialism does not require perfection to work.

And the very fact that Socialism wouldn't erase ALL social problems and human desires makes it work? If you instituted socialism TODAY, what kind of grand change do you think you would see?

I think you would see everyone attempting to do what they had to to survive in a capitalist system, and wonder why their hard work is in vain. They wouldn't automatically feel "liberated" simply because you decide you want to redistribute the income of the hard workers, to give to those who don't work.

If people don't earn anything, they DO NOT deserve to get ahead. You get ahead by EARNING, and if some people decide to waste their lives being "exploited" by trading hours of their life for minimum wage, so be it. Those who exploit are smart enough to avoid having to be exploited.

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In every culture that has class division, there is a majority of working people. All working people, regardless of mindset or culture, have a common interest, even though most are unaware of it (usually because the state distracts them with prejudicial propaganda about other cultures). That common interest is the ending of class division.

Class division is a natural occurence, because some people are : (Smarter, Stronger, Faster, etc.) than others.

By taking away the fruits of their labor, you are cheating those who strive, and rewarding those who just mill around.

Doesn't the fact you have to earn what you get make you appreciate it more? And seeing those who are too (stupid, arrogant, selfish) to work harder, simply make you glad that you chose to strive.

People are where they are in life by CHOICE. There isn't some grand exploitation scheme. People choose to work for themselves, or for someone, People choose to exploit stupidity, or be exploited by cunning. They aren't FORCED into either choice, simply they choose to take the EASY way which happens to be your average 40 hours a week at minimum wage, rather than working hard and earning MORE.

You can't feel guilty because some people are too lazy to work hard. If they worked as hard as you, they would be where you are. If you took a homeless man, transported him back in time to just after high school, I guarantee he would make the correct choices and become better.

People ARE different, and that is why there is class division. You have UNDERACHIEVERS, and you have those who EXCEL at what they do. Putting both into a system that takes away all benefit and loss is cheating both. It hurts the moral effort of those who underachieve, causing them to grow lazy, and it hurts the hard work of the achievers, because they suddenly have a glass ceiling placed over them.

Just because not everyone can cast a knowledgable vote, doesn't mean you abolish the RIGHT to vote.

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IÔÇÖm back

Sorry if I sounded negative Lotharr, I though your ideas were interesting, though I donÔÇÖt really agree with them.

Now, to make my little contribution to this socialism argument that is going on. I'm not going to try to cover everything, but there (invariably) are a few things I would like to comment on.

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I'm not saying that crime would cease to exist, but there is no conclusive evidence that criminal behavior is within the inherent nature of humanity.

No more then working hard is inherent in human nature. Survival instinct is, however, quite clearly an aspect of human nature. In a relatively developed society an individual can work hard to survive (as most people do), they can prey on those who work, or they can be born rich. For those who are not fortunate to be born rich (and even for many of those) there is a choice between legitimate and illegitimate success, and while the former is a more likely choice for any number of reasons, the later is still allowed for in human nature. (By the way, this is a simplification, illegitimate success is not necessarily mutually exclusive with legitimate success).

Then, of course, we have those who are criminally insane, would someone please explain how we could remove this problem within the constraints of human nature?

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In every culture that has class division, there is a majority of working people. All working people, regardless of mindset or culture, have a common interest, even though most are unaware of it (usually because the state distracts them with prejudicial propaganda about other cultures). That common interest is the ending of class division.

Wrong, many individuals (though not all) would much prefer to become one of the upper class and leave the class division intact.

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People are where they are in life by CHOICE. There isn't some grand exploitation scheme. People choose to work for themselves, or for someone, People choose to exploit stupidity, or be exploited by cunning. They aren't FORCED into either choice, simply they choose to take the EASY way which happens to be your average 40 hours a week at minimum wage, rather than working hard and earning MORE.

That reads like propaganda.

First of all, while its true that dedicated and capable individuals can become rich (thus my previous comment), most never do. Its not a matter of choosing to take the ÔÇ£easyÔÇØ way out, simply of having what it takes and choosing the much more difficult rout.

Oh, there is a saying I heard a good while ago, ÔÇ£work smarter, not harderÔÇØ. Hard work is important to transcending class barriers, but it is never sufficient.

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Guest $iLk

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That reads like propaganda.

First of all, while its true that dedicated and capable individuals can become rich (thus my previous comment), most never do. Its not a matter of choosing to take the ÔÇ£easyÔÇØ way out, simply of having what it takes and choosing the much more difficult rout.

Oh, there is a saying I heard a good while ago, ÔÇ£work smarter, not harderÔÇØ. Hard work is important to transcending class barriers, but it is never sufficient.

Being successful in life does not necessitate becoming rich. By making the correct choices, and working towards goals, pretty much everyone would be able to have a rather comfortable lifestyle. It is impossible for EVERYONE to become rich, because then, capital has no value. There will always be failure, as there will also always be success.

However, no one can guarantee that someone's idea of a business decision based on inexperience will be fruitful. Failure is a part of life, we become successful by learning from others and our own mistakes and not repeating them. Those who fail and quit deserve no pity, nor do they deserve scorn.

They will simply retire to be "exploited".

I fail to see how it is exploitation also. You agree to set aside hours of your life for a dollar amount. Boo Hoo. If you don't like it, don't agree to it, do something about it. If the shoe fits however, wear it.

All people are different, and some are more capable than others. Fairness has nothing to do with it, it's a fact of life.

Just like common sense.

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I’m back

Sorry if I sounded negative Lotharr, I though your ideas were interesting, though I don’t really agree with them.

No, I didn't much expect anyone would....however if something like this could be pulled off correctly I think the social benefits would be amazing. I stand by my opinion of ethnic relations in the country. I still feel like if something is not done to try and bring people together, many problems will be addressed in a fashion consistent with bureaucracy . Slow and painful. But maybe that’s the way it has to be. But personally I’m sick of it.

I don't mind negativity, yours was constructive, I'm just glad you never attempted to make me look stupid....and, in my opinion, that is an easy thing to do when a person is in pure brainstorm mode.

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No...but really....between the NRA and the great gangland breeding grounds we are knee deep in it......


I'd really like a further explanation of this, what does the NRA have to do with Gangland Breeding grounds. The NRA teaches responsibility with firearms, they are a lobbying group for millions of gunowners around the country.

The following are TRUE statistics by the way, though it is worded like a joke.

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For the sake of public Safety...

Number of physicians in the US: 700,000.

Accidental deaths caused by physicians per year: 120,000 (AMA).

Accidental deaths per physician: 0.171 (U.S. Dept. of Health Human Services)

Number of gun owners in the US: 80,000,000.

Number of accidental gun deaths per year (all age groups): 1,500.

Accidental deaths per gun owner: 0.0000188

Statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.

"FACT: Not everyone has a gun, but everyone has at least one Doctor."

Please alert your friends to this alarming threat. We must ban doctors before this gets out of hand.

As a Public Health Measure, I have withheld the statistic on Lawyers for fear that the shock could cause people to seek medical aid.


I am a legal and responsible gun owner, I carry a gun at ALL times, I have never shot anyone while committing a crime, as a matter of fact, I have never comitted a crime, besides the auto ticket or 2. The fact of the matter is that 99.99999% of all legally owned firearms are NOT used in a crime every year.

To say that the NRA and Gangland have anything in common is irresposible as hell, and I take offense at such slander.

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To say that the NRA and Gangland have anything in common is irresposible as hell, and I take offense at such slander.

Actually, itÔÇÖs libel; slander is when itÔÇÖs spoken.

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Statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.

"FACT: Not everyone has a gun, but everyone has at least one Doctor."

Please alert your friends to this alarming threat. We must ban doctors before this gets out of hand.


Doctors accidentally kill people while trying to help people. A gun that accidentally kills someone is generally not in a situation where the victim was getting help.

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And percentage wise EP5 1500 accidental deaths with 80,000,000 gun owners is INCREDIBLE!! That number is so low to make it marginal in the extreme. There are almost 300,000,000 people in the US, so if you put it into the entire population, .00001, or the chances of you getting accidentally shot with a gun is 1 in 2 million, you have a better chance of winning the lottery then you do of accidentally getting shot with a gun.

As a matter of fact, statistically you are about 80 times more likely to get killed in a car accident then you are getting killed by a gun. and actually because only criminals have guns in Canada,the liklely hood of you getting shot during a robbery is higher in canada then it would be in the US.

So, you are 80 times more likely to get killed in a car accident, should we outlaw cars? "it would be for the children" right? Cars are FAR more dangerous then a gun, it is 2 tons of steel driving down the road at 60, I would much rather be shot with a gun then run over by a car. My chances of survival are MUCH higher.

Besides which there are FAR more irresponsible car owners, then there are irresponsible gun owners. obviously, looking at the statistics.

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And percentage wise EP5 1500 accidental deaths with 80,000,000 gun owners is INCREDIBLE!! That number is so low to make it marginal in the extreme. There are almost 300,000,000 people in the US, so if you put it into the entire population, .00001, or the chances of you getting accidentally shot with a gun is 1 in 2 million, you have a better chance of winning the lottery then you do of accidentally getting shot with a gun.

What about non-accidental deaths?

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and actually because only criminals have guns in Canada,the liklely hood of you getting shot during a robbery is higher in canada then it would be in the US.

Anything official about that? Link?

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So, you are 80 times more likely to get killed in a car accident, should we outlaw cars? "it would be for the children" right? Cars are FAR more dangerous then a gun

Car are made to go around. Guns are made to shoot and kill. And cars are everywhere.

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Besides which there are FAR more irresponsible car owners, then there are irresponsible gun owners. obviously, looking at the statistics.

You are right, and I know the justice system and driving evaluations are too weak / loose / far and few in between, and I do believe that should be corrected. But then again, people will start to accuse the police of power abuse

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What are the statistics for intentional deaths caused by guns?


And your point is what?

In criminal activity I have no idea, but I know about 99% of those crimes are made with illegally owned firearms. Either stolen or the carrier of said firearm is a convicted felon and therefore not allowed to carry a firearm.

But I do know that law abiding citizens in the US use weapons over 2 1/2 million times a year to protect themselves from criminals. I know, I happen to be one of those 2 1/2 million people that have protected myself from criminals with a firearm last year.

So, again, what's your point?

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Well whatÔÇÖs your point? I donÔÇÖt think anyoneÔÇÖs really concerned about the possibility for accidental deaths by guns. If I was interested in arguing for gun control I might also point out that getting a stolen gun is much easier if there are people who you can steal them from.

But when it comes down to it that is irrelevant. Criminals tend to get weapons, knifes, guns, or whatever. I donÔÇÖt know about everyone else, but when it comes down to it I would rather have a gun and be attacked by someone with a gun then have nothing (or mace, which is worse then nothing) and be attacked by someone with a knife.

Oh, and Jag, the chance of winning the lottery is about one in 7 million.

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