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Socialism Vs Capitalism (round one)


Lotharr
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Maybe unions will get wind of this kind of stuff and try to implement it.....I hope they get the word.

What about assembly lines, mass production, automation. Do you have any idea how much it would cost to custom build cars rather then mass produce them? This would be a nightmare, never mind the sheer quantity of people whose whole purpose would be to organize meetings and plan all this, never mind that mass produced goods are just fine under all but a few circumstances, forget about all this, and it would still be a disaster. Hours would be spent planning individual cars for some hack who has no idea how a car should be put together, then it would take time to either reprogram the robots (or do we get rid of robots because they steal jobs?) or to build the thing without robots, and what for? So some hack can have a unique car? On the other hand, what if a consumer wants something made and negotiates with the workers only to find that they are simply unwilling to spend the amount of time it will take and no compromise is possible? You do know that compromising doesnt always work dont you?

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blah!

eight pages and counting

Pretty bad isnÔÇÖt it, and the number of new arguments is pitiful too boot.

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Do you have any idea how much it would cost to custom build cars rather then mass produce them?

Items don't need to be custom-built in Parecon. I used that example to keep with the analogy and because we were debating about free choice. It is completely acceptable if, for the sake of reasonable costs, the consumer and worker councils reach arrangements for the development of mass items, especially if there is a large number of consumers who are not willing to pay for the cost of custom items or if there are a large number of workers who are not willing to put in the labour to produce custom items. The point is that the decisions are made in proportion by the people who are effected by them: the consumers and the workers.

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So what you are saying is that the organization would be different but the end result would be the same. In capitalism I can buy mass produced items or I can get them custom made at a greater cost, same with ParEcon. Thus an argument based off the claim that capitalism takes away your choice (which is untrue, you can still have things custom made) while ParEcon (and thus socialism) provides said choice (when in fact it does so in a manner parallel to capitalism, by charging more or some equivalent).

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The difference is who decides. In capitalism the options are determined by owners and managers in the interests of maximizing profit, while in parecon the options are determined by the people who are going to produce and use the stuff: workers and consumers.

It's the same as arguing between parecon and feudalism. Even if the options determined by the monarchy and aristocracy match what people want, the fact remains that the people have no control over it, and the wealth benefits of production go to the monarchs and lords instead of the people who worked to create the product.

Even if the choices in feudalism or capitalism match those of parecon, the freedom is still missing. Freedom of choice is not just about the freedom to pick whatever option is available: it's also about the freedom to create one's own choices, both on the consumer side and the worker side.

In terms of clothing, the only production avenues in capitalism that remotely match this relation are the sole trading tailors, because they are both owner and worker. But, like you said, it's impossible to have all clothing production in the hands of sole trading tailors, because the costs are too high.

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Businesses will make more profit if they give the people what they want, so people do have the choice. One person produces what they want, another doesn't. They buy what they want, the other guy will go out of business or produce what he wants. I fail to see the distinction, except your advocating a system where it's inefficient mob rule.

P.S. You are still failing to respond to my last post which points out that your system requires everyone to buy into it, otherwise abuses of power will happen to a very high extent.

[ 07-06-2002, 06:07 PM: Message edited by: Dredd ]

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Businesses will make more profit if they give the people what they want, so people do have the choice. One person produces what they want, another doesn't. They buy what they want, the other guy will go out of business or produce what he wants. I fail to see the distinction, except your advocating a system where it's inefficient mob rule.

Actually, it's more efficient than capitalism, because consumers directly input their wants to the workers in advance of production, thus making competition redundant. This minimizes overproduction, which in turn minimizes overwork and waste. Therefore, more demand is satisfied with less effort and fewer resources.

quote:

P.S. You are still failing to respond to my last post which points out that your system requires everyone to buy into it, otherwise abuses of power will happen to a very high extent.

I'll get to yours in time. I'm still looking at other posts earlier in the thread.

[ 07-06-2002, 10:44 PM: Message edited by: Menchise ]

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With the number of posts you have to look through, you should be screaming "Remember the Alamo!"

And to stay on topic, even though a lack of overproduction may be good, having direct input would just cause every person's smallest suggestion to be heard, and thus inefficiency shows up again because of extra work needed, and then it wouldn't work logisitcally cause whose needs are met first would always be an issue, and with a world with this many people, it'd be impossible to keep everyone happy.

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