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Soback
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Guest Grayfox

ok... then ill do it like this:

quote:

Socialism means a global system of social organization based on:

Common Ownership: All the productive wealth of the world will belong to all the people of the world. No more transnational corporations or small businesses and therefore nobody will own the world. It will be possessed by all of its inhabitants.

Democratic Control By All: Who will run socialist society? We all will. There will be no more government and governed. People will make decisions freely in their communities, in regions and globally. With the existing means of information technology and mass communication this is all possible.

Production For Use: Instead of producing goods and services for sale and profit, the sole reason for production will be to satisfy needs and desires.

Free Access: A society in which everyone owns everything, decides everything and only produces anything because it is useful will be one in which all will have free access to what is produced. Money will cease to have any function. People will not work for wages or salaries, but to give what they can and take what they need.


wow that sounds really cool on paper (sic). yet i have yet to see any signs of this coming to fruition.

wait dont tell me... the capitalists are opressing it in some strange conspiracy theory to keep us like sheep in a herd right?

the problem i see is the part about being governed... it says that we will make our own decisions in our own communities, regions and globally (in theory). but someone has to have a say on what goes and what stays right? i mean what i want to do might upset or offend what my neighbor might want. who settles the dispute and makes a ruling? wouldnt the settling body be government-esque? does everyone vote on it? and who enforces the vote? and who oversees the vote? are we going on the honor system here?it contradicts itself. so basically i can make my own decision and not give 2 shi%s about my neighbor. who does he go to with a grievance against me??? the community? what are they going to do? wouldnt they then turn into a governing body if only for a short time? do we go out in the street and settle it old-west style? or do we make peace and smoke a bowl?

like i said... it contradicts itself and couldnt hold water if it was in the middle of a lake.

now about the part with money having no function, people will work for no salaries or wages but give what they can etc etc... again this doesnt hold water either, as it is in human nature to be greedy and want more than his neighbor.its been like that since BIBLICAL times. if this is supposed to be an equal society, how does one combat that? and you will have those who are lazy and will not want to do any work but leech off those that do. what do you do with them??? exile them to some desert island? work extra to support them? again... *shakes head*

the only thing i dont have a beef with is the common ownership, but like i said, people are inherently greedy. you might catch the rare few that arent, but the majority are, and like i said its been like that before christ.

*dusts off chair so Jag can have a seat*

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My genetically inferior comments were underexplained. My point is that total morons are either:

1. Have DNA strands that make them unable to comprehend certain concepts, thus they are of less value to society in jobs that are typically well paid (management, sciences, etc). I think this is most likely true since some people are stronger than others physically.

2. Are raised at an early age in a fashion that makes them total morons later in life.

3. Don't work hard because they just don't care.

The genetically inferior (now defined) gain from the rich in a socialist country, while in a capitalist country, the inferior can gain from CONTRIBUTIONS and KINDNESS from people that feel that way because of religion or just an innate feeling of compassion, as opposed to advocating the government STEAL from the rich and give to the poor.

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quote:

If I am say, a grunt that assembles machinery, in a sucessful company in a capitalist system, I am, by definition, being rewarded less than the income I actually produce for the company I'm working for.

Actually, you are paid a wage determined by the market value for your work, your credentials, and other similar things. If I'm selling screws to a company that makes widgets and they make money off of said widgets your reasoning would argue that I'm not selling my screws (as well as other raw material) for enough.

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What makes that fair exactly?

NOTHING, ITÔÇÖS NOT FAIR! But it does work and that counts for a lot more then fair. Would it, pray tell, be fair to stick people in some dumb job that they hate where they suffer from bureaucratic mismanagement that is engendered by an economic system in which skill or competency are neither rewarded nor really required?

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If I own x compay because my daddy died and left it to me, I'm not on top because I worked harder, or better, or am superior (as opposed to genetically inferior as the scary neo-nazi guy mentioned) it is a result of chance.

Life isnÔÇÖt fair, some people are smarter, stronger, faster, more charismatic, more dedicated, or richer. Being born rich is like being born with an above average IQ, itÔÇÖs the luck of the draw and thatÔÇÖs the way it goes. Like I said, itÔÇÖs not fair, but what in life is?

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as opposed to genetically inferior as the scary neo-nazi guy mentioned

That is bloody rude and no more accurate then the rest of your opinions.

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If I, for the sake of argument, pay some guy to run the company for me, and he vastly improves the profitability of the company, he is still getting the same salary, I, who do nothing, am making vastly more money... This can and does happen in capitalism.

If he is worth his beans as a manager he is getting some type of stock option, or at least buying stock, if you are worth beans as an employer your giving the man a raise. If he doesnÔÇÖt get stock, thatÔÇÖs his problem, if he doesnÔÇÖt get a raise he should probably quit, thatÔÇÖs your problem (or his if he doesnÔÇÖt quit). Someone with the skills to succeed at such a job is very valuable and no doubt knows that.

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A socialist system could be set up so that the ammount of income my labour actuall produces is actually given to me.

After, of course, paying for the stupendously large (and inefficient) bureaucracy that decides how much your labor is worth, me, I would rather just get the money at market value.

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This isn't how the communist manifesto explains things, but no one said it was the bible.

The communist manifesto should be filed right next to the necronomicon.

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Of course, people can, and do, build their own companies. I have nothing but admiration for these people. They do not however make up the majority of the population. Why should the system be set up to benefit a minority?

The system will always benefit a minority, always. Either it will be the rich elite, or the politically powerful elite, or the criminal elite (something of which there will be a lot of in any socialism). Most people would prefer that itÔÇÖs the rich and powerful rather then the criminal, do you feel otherwise?

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And who says production is the primary objective of life? What did John Milton actually produce? He is the perhaps the greatest figure of english literature, but did he make anything you could sit on, or eat? No.

No one, but it is the primary factor in determining pay. Will your socialist regime pay authors and artists for there work or will they have to do it in there spare time? If the latter is true, will they then be able to sell the books or will they simply have to give them away? This is, of course, assuming that the authors arenÔÇÖt locked up and the books banned; thatÔÇÖs known to happen in socialism you know.

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Capitalism, also, is not a the end all and be all of economic theory, and social systems.

YouÔÇÖre right, there is always feudalism.

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Just because it is the current system, doesn't make it the best system, and even if it were, it doesn't mean it can be improved/limited/ revised.

No, but it is the best system anyone has come up with yet.

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Lets all sit on our asses, secure in the belief that the world will continure on its happy way because we all believe in capitalism. A system based on the principle of infinite expansion, in a world of finit resource and space. Surly it'll never cause problems. Inflation doesn't exist. Oh, and just as capitalism encourages the best in people, it'll encourage the best in social conscience, and environmental concern. Surly it'll result in the best option for out environment (and our continured existence) even if it isn't the most profitable course of action... Ignorance IS bliss isn't it?

BAH BAH! BAH! BAH! I cant believe I really heard that! Absolutely BAH!

If you havenÔÇÖt figured it out yet, that is the biggest crock of maggot ridden fecal matter I have heard in a good long while. There is no reason to believe that a large and clumsy bureaucracy lead by a democratic system that encourages selfish voting and mob rule will be any better at handling the environment then capitalism. The solution to pollution exists with technology, and everything I know about socialism says that while it is good for heavy manufacturing it is crap for the sciences and for high tech applications.

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I did see the "I lived under socialism" statment... And I don't know the exact circumstances, but I imagine that's where you get your irrational fear of socialism, which is understandable.

If I hit you over the head with a brick does that make you want to be hit again? I should hope not. Is this because you have an irrational fear of being clobbered with a brick or because it rather hurts?

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I don't doubt that capitalism looks pretty damn good when compared to whatever was labeled capitalism or socialism there... However taking the particular and making it the rule, the generality, is innapropriate and silly.

But it is the rule, and I donÔÇÖt see any sign of that changing either. There have been a number of socialist societies so far, and while they have not been truly communist they HAVE in fact been socialist.

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Whatever label it had, doesn't make it socialism, and there is no rule saying that all socialist setups must be designed and implemented that way.

I'm not sure exactly which socialism Soback lived in, but I have little doubt that it was socialist.

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Your problem is that you fail to look beyond your immediate environment, and you make the erronious assumption that all other discomfort, disorder, pain, suffering and bad luck is the result of laziness and stupidity.

I make no such assumption, and I am still a strong supporter of capitalism. As far as looking beyond my environment, at least I donÔÇÖt argue that I should gain by legitimized theft.

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This, in itself, is the height of inhuman, stupidity and narromindedness.

ItÔÇÖs very human, and as I am extremely intelligent (if my writing doesnÔÇÖt tell you then perhaps my IQ of about 140 will) so you stupidity argument is completely void. As far as narrow-mindedness goes, with the generally inaccurate assessments that you have been giving everything else I'm inclined to dismiss this as just another such statement for though I have no real way of arguing against it, you have not really brought forth any evidence either.

It might, however, be the height of stupidity and narrow-mindedness to think that successful people owe you money because of your failings.

[ 05-28-2002, 17:35: Message edited by: Dragon Lady ]

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Let me tell you what socialistic system I lived in. I lived in CCCP, or translated to English = Soviet United Socialistic Republics, in America it had a governmet system known as comunism, as you can see however, it has word SOCIALISM in the countrys name, and it was EVERYTHING that you are describing that socialism should be, EVERYTHING. Pretty much "equal" pay, everyone should love each other, common property with no insanely rich people or poverty. What a bunch of bull. What it really was is high officials had their private land outside of cities, huge 5 bedroom appartments with 8" ceilings, and cars. While the common worker, even if he had a university degree with a doctorate was living in a 2 bedroom appartment (if he was lucky, a family of 3 people usually had a 1 bedroom) had to stay in food lines for an hour just to get some food for the week, and use public tranportation for his whole life (a car was just unatainable). Oh yea, I know what you are going to say, it wasn't socialism or the system got hijacked by the government. Well here's my answer, IT WAS SOCIALISM, we were taught from kindergarden exactly the same things that you are talking about, and saw those things implemented, HOWEVER, we also saw how the greedy and criminal people took advantage of the system, got themselfs in top positions (didn't even need to be a high school graduate to get there, hmm.... what a surprise) and lived off the sweat of the workers, enjoying themselfs.

So, my point is, I came to America, and yes, IT IS the best governmet system in the world (for now, while it's not fully overrun yet). I can go to school that I can't afford (costs more than my whole family makes in 2 years), own a car (SINCE 16) and have plans for a succesfull future life (something I would NEVER EVER have in Russia or ANY OTHER SOCIALISTIC country). So when I hear people like you talk about socialism, or those bastards who talk on TV, or Radio about changing American ways, be more CONSIDERATE of the poor, and increase social programs, it makes me want to....... That's not what I came to this country for, I didn't come here to rape it of it's economy/resources, but to make a better life for myself and my kids (when I will have some). Makes me sick looking at all those who don't belong here strip this country of everything that would make it great for those who actually want to have their family generations here.

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Guest Grayfox

quote:

Originally posted by Dragon Lady:

The communist manifesto should be filed right next to the necronomicon

LMFAO!!! oh man i almost fell out of my chair i was laughing so hard

Soback: most people are narrow minded in their beliefs. You have experienced both sides of the coin. you know the bad and the good. thats why i respect your input on this matter.

as for me, i was born in a capitalist system, so yes, maybe i am a bit biased. but after seeing the "fruits" of socialism in other countries that tried it and a lengthy 3/4 poli/sci term discussion on socialism (complete with paper)im GLAD i live in a capitalist system.

but we can discuss this till we are blue in the face, because no one NO ONE has offered up any evidence that socialism works. none, zero, nada. its all a bunch of crap written down to fool people to work their asses off to support the higher echelon of govt. nothing like having the common worker work his ass off so some politician can kick it in his dacha paid for with the money made by said worker. socialism at work eh ash?

at least in the system I work in, i can work my ass off and live off the fruits of my labor. I work hard, get promoted, get a pay raise, move into a nice house. note the key is WORK.you have to want to WORK for this to be available to you. where as in socialism, the same amount of work i do now would not get me said benefits. instead id be living in some slum paying 250 bucks for a loaf of friggin bread and some worn out shoes, while some lazy bastard who doesnt want to work gets the same thing. why??? he didnt work for it. why should i have to support his lazy ass? at least here, if youre too lazy to work for your benefits, you wont make squat.

talk about narrow mindedness... makes me want to vomit.

[ 05-28-2002, 10:51: Message edited by: Grayfox ]

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Grayfox,

You must be living in Wonderland, then?

Have you ever worked for a large corporation? If you work hard and contribute in a positive way helping raise the companies profits you will not see any rewards for this labor.

In todays large corporations, profit is the motive. They understand that anyone less than an executive or their top R&D guys can be replaced easily- usually with cheap foreign labor- and is unimportant. You will always have a supervisor or manager (use any title you want) that you report to who will take credit for your hard work, find excuses to post low review scores and crappy raises to as many employees as possible- if they even let you have the raise they promised within the next year.

I KNOW socialism doesn't work, but neither does capitalism. I have seen this country detroy the family unit, teach us our parents are disposable and market products directly to children who don't understand what money is (and learn that money and things ARE happiness). All the while, the elite rich and politicians (and those that aspire to be) make lying and cheating the most often rewarded skills in the US. If you've ever talked with executives, you'd know that unless they know they've been recorded, they'll always deny promising that raise or promotion. Hell, look at Clinton- he made a mockery of our entire system when he was allowed to squirm around the sex scandal by denying that oral sex is 'sexual relastions'.

And we bought it. And most of us keep buying it and always will. We've been made so comfortable in life that we are afraid to go without that AC or TV, the video games and the internet. The more technology we get, the worse society becomes. More greedy, more dishonest, more bloodthirsty. Most will do whatever it takes to make sure they get the leg up and you get the shaft- most of them are bullshit artists and thieves with PHD's, no common sense and a knack for taking credit for the hard work all the little guys under them have done.

Capitalism doesn't work either. In the end, we will consume ourselves and each other in our lust for more and more of all this crap we don't NEED anyway. We know better, but screw it- as long as we're comfortable we'll let the next generation deal with it. Why sacrifice? This is capitalism!!

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quote:

In todays large corporations, profit is the motive.

ThatÔÇÖs pretty normal for corporations, and not just todayÔÇÖs.

quote:

They understand that anyone less than an executive or their top R&D guys can be replaced easily- usually with cheap foreign labor- and is unimportant.

ThatÔÇÖs a bit of an exaggeration, there are a lot of technical jobs that cheap foreign laborers simply canÔÇÖt do.

quote:

You will always have a supervisor or manager (use any title you want) that you report to who will take credit for your hard work, find excuses to post low review scores and crappy raises to as many employees as possible- if they even let you have the raise they promised within the next year.

Gods, and people call me cynical. Well, what can I say, if people fall for it then thatÔÇÖs there own problem.

quote:

I KNOW socialism doesn't work, but neither does capitalism.

I donÔÇÖt know about that, capitalism has been working for the past few hundred years just fine.

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I have seen this country detroy the family unit, teach us our parents are disposable and market products directly to children who don't understand what money is (and learn that money and things ARE happiness).

Made parents disposable, how is this?

As far as marketing to children, well if they donÔÇÖt understand what money is then itÔÇÖs there parents job to oversee them. And I wonÔÇÖt argue that money is happiness, itÔÇÖs not, but it does play an important roll in achieving happiness.

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All the while, the elite rich and politicians (and those that aspire to be) make lying and cheating the most often rewarded skills in the US.

Survival of the fittest, nothing more to be said.

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Hell, look at Clinton- he made a mockery of our entire system when he was allowed to squirm around the sex scandal by denying that oral sex is 'sexual relastions'.

Only in the US would a high-ranking government official receive that kind of crap over a sex scandal. It was blown so horrendously out of proportion that you actually think itÔÇÖs a big deal. I personally donÔÇÖt give a crap about ClintonÔÇÖs minor sexual indiscretions, those are his problem and that of his wife, and to think that he would be taken out of office over something like that is ridiculous.

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We've been made so comfortable in life that we are afraid to go without that AC or TV, the video games and the internet.

Good, go become a hermit, cave out a domicile from the trunk of a tree using your front teeth and hunt for food by throwing rocks.

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The more technology we get, the worse society becomes. More greedy, more dishonest, more bloodthirsty.

Right, so does that mean we should go back to the cave? Back to the trees perhaps? ThatÔÇÖs preposterous.

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Most will do whatever it takes to make sure they get the leg up and you get the shaft

Once again, survival of the fittest. I would hate to live in a country that didnÔÇÖt promote personal competence.

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Capitalism doesn't work either. In the end, we will consume ourselves and each other in our lust for more and more of all this crap we don't NEED anyway.

How do you support this? You go on about greed and lying politicians but you never provide any support or evidence. And now your saying capitalism is self destructive, a little proof would be nice. Actually, an alternative would be nice as well, but as you no doubt know destroying is easier then creating.

quote:

We know better, but screw it- as long as we're comfortable we'll let the next generation deal with it. Why sacrifice? This is capitalism!!

Actually thatÔÇÖs human nature.

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Guest Grayfox

quote:

Originally posted by Remo:

Have you ever worked for a large corporation? If you work hard and contribute in a positive way helping raise the companies profits you will not see any rewards for this labor.


actually i do work for a large corporation Nationwide. AND i get rewarded for my efforts. so before you go off spouting half truths, you better know what the hell youre talking about.

again, what color is the sky where YOU live?

mines blue.

quote:

You must be living in Wonderland, then?


no, but then again i dont live in orlando either, so i wouldnt know what wonderland is about

quote:

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We know better, but screw it- as long as we're comfortable we'll let the next generation deal with it. Why sacrifice? This is capitalism!!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Actually thatÔÇÖs human nature.


exactly. but for some reason these people just dont seem to grasp that concept. they want to blame it on a social system, or color, or race, or religion. when instead its in our NATURE to be greedy sandy little buttholes. its been like that since before christ. but noooooo we have to find a scapegoat for our misgivings. i mean i know i work for my money... why the hell should i work to support someone who has no intention on working for themselves? screw that.

now for those who cant work ie: theyre physically/mentally unable to, then im all for supporting them. ill work for them. but those lazy bastards who think they can skate by by living off the work of others get no sympathy, or money, from me. and i dont want to hear that crap about "well maybe theyre on bad times, or cant find a job"... bullsh(^t. i was out of work 5 months. for those of you that dont live with mommy and daddy and pay your own bills, you know thats a long time to be out of work did i take handouts? no. i kept looking for a job and got one with the company im with. now im enjoying success. the key is, like ive said before, youve got to WANT to work.

[ 05-30-2002, 21:23: Message edited by: Grayfox ]

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Grayfox,

My main problem with the whole thing is simply put:

In the long run, neither system will work.

BECAUSE of human nature, the practice of capitalism and the pursuit of profit causes us to rationalize dishonest (even evil) behavior- as long as they result in profit for ourselves. In the end, our children learn from this example, morals are thrown away (seeing more talk of morals being a bad thing) and society degrades as the middle class disappears and the elite rich leech the lifeblood of the poverty stricken populace who still will do ANYTHING for money.

I'm so glad you have a great job. I work for a great company, but you apparently have to be pretty and able to lie at the drop of a hat to get ahead. Same as every other company I have worked for- you got the looks and the bs talk you move up. I'm not a socialite; I'm a IS Specialist. Also, if I were part of any minority group, my chances for promotion would increase dramatically even if I had no degree. It's all about lawsuit prevention. I guess the only thing holding me back is my dedication to giving the customer what they deserve, and my honesty. Those used to be the qualities that got you ahead.....

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Master Yoda on beer:

"Beer is the path to the darkside. Beer leads to drunkenness, drunkenness leads to beer goggles, beer goggles leads to dirty women. Once you get a dirty woman in your jock, forever will she dominate your destiny. Besides......Whiskey is the true Jedi drink."

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quote:

In the long run, neither system will work.

In the long run nothing works, we all die, and it doesnÔÇÖt matter.

quote:

BECAUSE of human nature, the practice of capitalism and the pursuit of profit causes us to rationalize dishonest (even evil) behavior- as long as they result in profit for ourselves.

Actually, we prefer the term ÔÇ£great funÔÇØ to evil and dishonest.

quote:

In the end, our children learn from this example, morals are thrown away (seeing more talk of morals being a bad thing) and society degrades as the middle class disappears and the elite rich leech the lifeblood of the poverty stricken populace who still will do ANYTHING for money.

Good for the kids, they will be better for it. As for the rest, a bit of an exaggeration to say the least.

quote:

I work for a great company, but you apparently have to be pretty and able to lie at the drop of a hat to get ahead.

Nothing new about this with capitalism, good looks and a quick tong have always been useful to say the least.

quote:

Also, if I were part of any minority group, my chances for promotion would increase dramatically even if I had no degree.

That is pretty dumb, but unfortunately very true. People trying to solve the problems of our society seem to be delightfully good at making new ones.

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I guess the only thing holding me back is my dedication to giving the customer what they deserve, and my honesty.

ThatÔÇÖs your choice, and I respect it, but how can you expect someone to succeed unless theyÔÇÖre willing to throw everything else out the window to do so.

quote:

Those used to be the qualities that got you ahead.....

When was this?

quote:

Master Yoda on beer:

"Beer is the path to the darkside. Beer leads to drunkenness, drunkenness leads to beer goggles, beer goggles leads to dirty women. Once you get a dirty woman in your jock, forever will she dominate your destiny. Besides......Whiskey is the true Jedi drink."

LMAO

ThatÔÇÖs too good, really, where do you get this stuff?

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And some people wonder where burning out the rich being a grand idea comes from

Drive on Remo you are making sense. But remember who you are talking to. Some people have no idea what morals can mean to life. They deserve the pity they will not give.

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Guest Grayfox

quote:

Originally posted by Remo:

I guess the only thing holding me back is my dedication to giving the customer what they deserve, and my honesty. Those used to be the qualities that got you ahead.....


USED to be. i agree. ive got released from many many a job for speaking honestly. youre right, its not like that any more. i just got lucky and found a job with a boss who has the same attitude as me... say whats on your mind, even if it will piss someone off, be honest, dont steal etc etc. i do have morals, and compassion for my fellow man... except the lazy ones so quit the generalization if you please lotharr.

customer service for me is pretty much non existent ( i drive an armored car so i dont get out much) but the company has to be doing something right to be nationwide. i agree people were probably stepped on and lives ruined, but i would rather be jobless here, than some poor starving sap working for beans in a socialistic society paying 200 bucks for a loaf of bread. at least here i have a chance to work my way out of the hole i dug. (which i did not too long ago).

however i now choose to ignore posts by people who A) think they know everything, but havent even left their country to experience different societies and cultures, B)read some book written by some single minded author who thinks he knows everything when HE hasnt been out of his country, and C) people who have absoloutely no idea what theyre talking about, but want to throw their 2 cents in because they think theyre cool and want to be noticed.

[ 06-05-2002, 06:26: Message edited by: Grayfox ]

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