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One Nation, Under God....


Guest $iLk
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JIMINY CHRISTMAS ! ! !

Here we go again! More people taking offense. It's getting to the point of being sickening, which is way past ludicrous.

Anyone care to wager that this person, who finds the verbage in the pledge offensive, has no problem whatsoever accepting twenty dollar bills as payment for his services?, Nor does he have any problem spending said monies?

Yup, that's absolutely correct, U.S. currency has the words In God We Trust tattooed on every bill. (GASP!)

I'm sure our atheist friends are working diligently to get that changed too.

Believe it or not, (it's up to the individual perusing these words, you're mileage may vary) it has been, and always will be this nations steadfast belief in God that has made it the nation it is. The minute we toss God into the garbage can the tribulation will follow. World government. Loss of freedom. Etc. Etc.

I have always tried to live with this philosophy...

"Offense can not be given unless taken "

So, if you find the use of the word God in our everyday lives offensive-IGNORE IT OR MOVE! Your choice. Ahh Freedom. Ain't it great?

There are plenty of oppressive countries more than willing to tell you what to do and how to live. And I guarantee the very second you start bellyaching about the way they are running your life, they will send a nice little goon squad to your house to persuade you to see their point of view.

At least in the good ol' U.S.of A. you have the right to voice your opinions. But the minute you start forcing it down everyone elses throat, then you are as wrong as you can possibly be!

If you don't want to hear it, siddown, shaddup, and put your fingers in your ears.

[ 06-27-2002, 05:19 PM: Message edited by: Wolferz ]

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quote:

Sorry, Socialism, Communism, and Fascism killed millions in the 20th century. Atheism has always been a part of those, but it is not the root cause of the actions of those political views.

Atheism is not a political affiliation, it's about religious belief (or lack thereof) This quote makes it sounds like Atheism was related to capitalism as much as capitalism is related to communism.

quote:

I heard on the radio today that Atheism is what killed Millions in the 20th century

Err ok... sure right.

[ 06-27-2002, 05:27 PM: Message edited by: Epsilon 5 ]

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Strictly speaking that little line should indeed not be there, but I think it's a bit blown out of proportions. Here's a simple solution:

Revised Pledge of Allegiance

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under --insert favorite diety here (to taste), if atheist remove under--, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

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Guest MIKE113

I feel sorry for the guys little girl. She will be the one who suffers needlessly, the guy could have waited until she was a little older!

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I don't know if you guys are aware of this yet, but the same judge who was in the 2-1 ruling, just put the ruling on hold indefinitley.

He voted for it, and then puts it on hold, so it cannot be enforced. Hilarious, what a bunch of goofballs.

He has his principals until the people have a cow, interesting how that works. We need to have a cow MORE often, maybe these judges will quit trying to legislate from the bench.

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quote:

Originally posted by DREADA:

quote:

Originally posted by Jaguar:

The great thing about that is, they are moral because they wish to be, not because of some punishment that will be meted out to them after they die.

Geez Jag, is that really why you think christians try to live by moral standards??


What about this answer: because it just is the right thing to do.

But if you say that, then from who's standards is it the right thing to do? Where did mankind get the idea/concept of morals in the first place?

I know the answer, do you?

[ 06-27-2002, 11:56 PM: Message edited by: LordDavid ]

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What about this answer: because it just is the right thing to do. But if you say that, then from who's standards is it the right thing to do? Where did mankind get the idea/concept of morals in the first place?

Let me put it this way.

Suppose you're in a bar and you see a big person beating up another person because he was smaller. Do you say to yourself, "This is wrong because God says so", or do you say to yourself, "This is wrong because that big guy is a sick f***head"?

Suppose it was written in the Bible that smaller people should be beaten up. When you see it happening, do you say to yourself, "This is right because God says so", or do you say to yourself, "This is wrong, therefore God is a sick f***head"?

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Guest Remo Williams

quote:

Let me put it this way.

Suppose you're in a bar and you see a big person beating up another person because he was smaller. Do you say to yourself, "This is wrong because God says so", or do you say to yourself, "This is wrong because that big guy is a sick f***head"?

Suppose it was written in the Bible that smaller people should be beaten up. When you see it happening, do you say to yourself, "This is right because God says so", or do you say to yourself, "This is wrong, therefore God

So what was the moral of your little story here Menchise? I for one don't see one at all. Or did you post this just to start a flame war?

If any ones really interested in the separation of church and state issue heres an interesting article.

[ 06-28-2002, 12:45 AM: Message edited by: Remo Williams ]

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Suppose it was written in the Bible that smaller people should be beaten up.

That's two absurd analogies in 24 hours. You can do better than that.

It's okay to use extreme positions to make a point, but those extremes still have to based in some kind of reality.

You're losing it, Nick.

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quote:

Originally posted by Steve Schacher:

quote:

Suppose it was written in the Bible that smaller people should be beaten up.

That's two absurd analogies in 24 hours. You can do better than that.

It's okay to use extreme positions to make a point, but those extremes still have to based in some kind of reality.

You're losing it, Nick.


Wait, you just have to look at Islam, and there's your example... I'm not against muslims, but IMO their religion doesn't seem to promote tolerance, forgiving and equality much. A pretty much extremist religion which seems to promote oppression, superiority, and punishment.
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So what was the moral of your little story here Menchise? I for one don't see one at all. Or did you post this just to start a flame war?

My point is that human beings are capable of having an intrinsic sense of morality, even if it's just a basic one. In this case, human beings have moral standards even if they've never been preached by religion.

And no, I'm not trying to start a flame war. I was using strong language to make the point more succinct. I'm sorry if I offended anyone.

quote:

That's two absurd analogies in 24 hours.

Absurd, but to the point. If a religious teaching is in direct conflict with one's intrinsic sense of morality, then how does one react to the application of that teaching in practice, even if one is religious?

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I believe that human nature is an instinct for humans to do what is in their best interests, a survival trait.

I believe that morality is not inherited, but learned.

A human beings basic instincts do not include a comprehension of any moral code. Morality is instilled through values. In the case of the pledge of allegiance, it is those values that are sought to be upheld. Americans aren't born with the knowledge of what it means to be a US Citizen.

The purpose of the Pledge, and of our currency, is to firmly establish that this is a nation that was founded upon certain values, and seeks to uphold those values for future generations.

Otherwise, the USA would cease to be.

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quote:

A human beings basic instincts do not include a comprehension of any moral code. Morality is instilled through values.

I agree that moral codes that are as sophisticated as those instilled through values are not intrinsic. What I'm saying is that there is an intrinsic sense of a basic morality, which originates from human empathy. That is why I kept asking the question, "How would you react?", when I mentioned the scenarios.

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quote:

Originally posted by Menchise:

What I'm saying is that there is an intrinsic sense of a basic morality...

Indeed, if basic morality was a learned behavior, moral standards throughout the world would vary wildly. But that is not quite the case. Murder is almost universally frowned upon, for example.

quote:

Originally posted by $iLk:

I believe that human nature is an instinct for humans to do what is in their best interests, a survival trait....

In addition, a basic, intuitive morality is a significant evolutionary advantage (e.g. reciprocal alturism), so there is no reason why it wouldn't be innate.

[ 06-29-2002, 04:27 PM: Message edited by: Sunanta ]

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Morality:

Ok, morality is simply learned. In the United States, as widely varied as religious affiliations and lack of them are, it's tradition that prostitutes, murders, rapists, and other criminals and *marginalized* groups are frowned upon, as are their actions, and in addition, Christianity is upheld as the moral framework. Before people start arguing with that, immediately after the 9th Circut Court's ruling, almost ALL representatives and senators moved to pass a bill condemning the ruling, and they all recited the pledge including GOD in it. Christianity is popular, the laws of our country are based around Christianity, and actions that are counter to the moral code of Christianity are either frowned upon or CRIMINAL. Going back to previous analogies about atheists, the person isn't going to stop the guy in the bar from being beaten because he's afraid of God, or because the beater is some sick person. He's either NOT going to do it because he doesn't wanna get hurt, or he's gonna do it because he's afraid of being looking down upon by the girlfriend or wife or group of friends he's with for NOT doing anything.

If there was no common norm about morality, people would act like animals and do whatever they want to get whatever they want. It's a learned behavior since people mold to fit society's expectations. Just like the holocaust was obviously immoral to everyone NOT in Germany, it was perfectly moral to them since they were living in a society, somewhat delusioned by the information they were getting from their government, that by wiping out Jews it was a GOOD THING. "Morality" as we think of it, did not exist there.

The Court Decision:

The declaration of independence, the preamble to the constitution, and a number of patriotic songs (GOD BLESS AMERICA, AMERICA THE BEAUTIFUL) all have "God" in them. The constitution forbids the establishment of a specific religion as a STATE religion and the forcing of anyone to follow a particular religious belief. If you don't want to say "God" in the pledge, then DONT SAY IT. Also, just to end any debate over this, go on msnbc.com and read the fact that 3 justices on the Supreme Court stated that if it came to the court that it WOULD be overturned. (aka, the pledge would stay the way it is now). Do you all really think that having God in the pledge is somehow oppressing someone's right to worship a religious entity freely? They just need to keep thier mouth shut.

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Going back to previous analogies about atheists, the person isn't going to stop the guy in the bar from being beaten because he's afraid of God, or because the beater is some sick person. He's either NOT going to do it because he doesn't wanna get hurt, or he's gonna do it because he's afraid of being looking down upon by the girlfriend or wife or group of friends he's with for NOT doing anything.

I'm not asking what one would do about it (that depends on more than just morals), I'm asking what one would think or say to oneself in reaction to seeing it happening. I believe that regardless of one's religious beliefs or lack thereof, one would recognize that what's happening is wrong.

quote:

Just like the holocaust was obviously immoral to everyone NOT in Germany, it was perfectly moral to them since they were living in a society, somewhat delusioned by the information they were getting from their government, that by wiping out Jews it was a GOOD THING. "Morality" as we think of it, did not exist there.

It was not moral to the German people either, especially the civilians. When Hitler initially spoke of the extermination of Jews, the people did not seriously believe that he would do it. When they knew what was happening, they couldn't do much about it and expect to stay in one piece, so most of them tried to cope with the issue by simply denying it. Another point worth mentioning is that the Nazis were Christian.

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Do you all really think that having God in the pledge is somehow oppressing someone's right to worship a religious entity freely? They just need to keep thier mouth shut.

I think the point was that it imprinted on young minds the existence of god (though I have to admit it didnÔÇÖt work well on me), and thus is part of a process to remove from a child the ability to choose no religion. Furthermore, it is the act of hearing it that is as much the problem as is the act of speaking it, so keeping there mouth shut as you so elegantly put it isnÔÇÖt really a solution. That said, I donÔÇÖt really care, I just think that it is inherently cool that someone would sue over this.

As far as all of this nonsense about the origin of morality I have to agree with Menchise and Suanta, the complex set of ideas that we call morality is learned, but is none the less based in biological imperative. ItÔÇÖs not universal, or necessarily all that strong, but it does exist.

quote:

I believe that regardless of one's religious beliefs or lack thereof, one would recognize that what's happening is wrong.

Unless, of course, one thought it was amuseing. Just because the seed of morality is biological doesnÔÇÖt mean that it sprouts in everyone.

quote:

Someone who goes around trying to get away with everything at everyone else's expense would not get very far.

Well no, not if they are as obvious about it as you are suggesting, there is a certain finesse to doing that kind of thing well. That said, it is not so much that reciprocal altruism is good for each individual, indeed it is more of a burden then anything else, but rather it is beneficial for society as a whole that individuals act in a moral manner.

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It's important that people see this as a good thing!! Lets face it; children have little awareness during youth. Who is ANYONE too bring someone up in a religion, when they don't really have a choice in opting out.

That point goes much deeper into society than just the pledge.

It needs to be a choice later on in life, where an intelligent being can decide if the bible (or any religious literature, for that matter) is fact.

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I am so tired of this, if your child cannot think for themselves enough not to be brainwashed by under god in the pledge of allegiance, the kid needs to be in a mental hospital, not a public school.

Sorry folks, this country has a majority of christians in it, there is NO SUCH animal as the "separation of church and state" as said by the SCOTUS. There is no place for the government to tell us what religion we need to be, but to NOT allow religion within a public school or within public property is so far beyond reasonable, it is unreal.

You do not have right to be free of religion, you do not have the right NOT to be offended.

If you wish to be free of religion, then go find a NICE cabin in the middle of the woods and lock yourself down, otherwise, DEAL WITH IT!!

If you are offended by "Under God" in the pledge, then DON'T say it, skip the "under god" part.

You do NOT have the right to NOT be Offended, sorry folks, I can offend you all I want!! I have the right to offend you, it's called free speech, but you can either A: tune me out, B: or leave.

Pretty simple, this decision was a crock, and will be thrown out on its little liberal behind.

That's the wonderful thing about liberalism/socialism in the US, they want to control the way we think, they want us to believe that the constitution says something that it has never said. They want to be able to punish us for thinking or saying something, because it MIGHT offend someone. THIS PC CRAP had better be over real fast or it will destroy this country from within. Who needs terrorists when you have idiots in the courts that will do the job for them.

Hate crimes, separation off church and state, it goes on and on, once they control how and what you think, they can do just about anything.

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quote:

Originally posted by Jaguar:

Who needs terrorists when you have idiots in the courts that will do the job for them.

Hate crimes, separation off church and state, it goes on and on, once they control how and what you think, they can do just about anything.

Agree totally

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