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Are you jumping ship? - The nVidia vs ATI debate (again)

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As I said before, no need to apologize.

At any rate, you already know how people come to the site, take anything/everything we post, then take off and go twist it. Thats pretty much the sum of it all and why I like to make sure that whatever I said - on the record - comes from me and not someone's assumptions and/or fuzzy logic.

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Guest Grayfox

well, for some reason, ATI products are not compatible with my system... be it the drivers, or the hardware (probably drivers). im running an older radeon model (7000), and im still having major issues with certain programs. i use updated drivers with no luck, so i go back to the original CD drivers, with the same results.

so i leave today to blow some cash on a card that is more compatible with my system and is within my price range... hehe wonder what the swap meet has to offer

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Well, I took out my Ti4600 card and put in my brand spankin new Radeon 9700. After two days of struggling with the thing, it is now in the retail box and the Ti4600 is back in the system.

My Radeon 9700 would not even complete 3DMark2001SE (Build 330) without hard locking. It would lock in different, random places. I spent all weekend trying different things. I have all standard equipment:

Intel 2.53 (533)

Intel 850MVSE motherboard

Audigy Soundcard

I took out the Audigy card, did a fresh OS install with the latest CD 9700 drivers and the latest leaked drivers, but no luck. 3DMark would hard lock. The temperature was fine so it was not a cooling issue.

I tried the 9700 card on my other machine which is an Intel 845BG (DDR) motherboard and tried 3DMark and it worked great. So at least I know my 9700 card is not bad. For some reason, it does not seem to like my 850MVSE motherboard (maybe it is the 1066mhz RDRAM?).

I have been reading other posts over at Anand and Rage3d about lock up's during 3DMark with the 9700, but all of those seem to be related to AMD chipsets.

Oh well. I still like my Ti4600. I am just one of this crazies that like to have the latest and fastest thing out there. I guess now I will wait for the NV30.

One thing about Nvidia cards. I have never had an incompatible one ever. They work with whatever chipset/processor I throw at it.

Shawn

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Guest Grayfox

well i went and blew some cash on a Ti 4200. i am pleased to say the least. all the apps and programs i could not run with my radeon, worked well beyond expectations with my new nvidia.

quote:

I tried the 9700 card on my other machine which is an Intel 845BG (DDR) motherboard and tried 3DMark and it worked great. So at least I know my 9700 card is not bad. For some reason, it does not seem to like my 850MVSE motherboard (maybe it is the 1066mhz RDRAM?).


who knows? i had the chance to buy a radeon 9700 today, but passed it up. i apologize if i offend any ati owners out there, but after 2 products and minimal satisfaction, i thought it was time to spend my money elsewhere.

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The problems with 3DMark and the Radeon 9700 is probably related to the memory timing in the BIOS.

FWIW, My 8500 locked my machine solid, trashed the registry and everything, when I tried to run 3DMark on it when I first received it. I think it was the test after the car chase that did it. It was so bad that I had to restore the drive from a backup image because I couldn't fix the registry.

I never tried it again.

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Guest Grayfox

quote:

Originally posted by the Supreme Commander:

FWIW, My 8500 locked my machine solid, trashed the registry and everything, when I tried to run 3DMark on it when I first received it. I think it was the test after the car chase that did it. It was so bad that I had to restore the drive from a backup image because I couldn't fix the registry.


holy cow batman!

ok i have a rather low brow question... are things like that happening easy to miss during development??? i mean that sounds like a major problem. do they rush to get these things out? or do they just happen once they come across a certain system theyre incompatible with?

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quote:

Originally posted by Supreme Cmdr:

The problems with 3DMark and the Radeon 9700 is probably related to the memory timing in the BIOS..

Thanks for the tip.

quote:

Originally posted by Supreme Cmdr:

FWIW, My 8500 locked my machine solid, trashed the registry and everything, when I tried to run 3DMark on it when I first received it. I think it was the test after the car chase that did it. It was so bad that I had to restore the drive from a backup image because I couldn't fix the registry..

That is the same place my 9700 is locking. It is the dragothic test (after the car chase).

quote:

Originally posted by Supreme Cmdr:

I never tried it again.

And I probably won't either. :-)

Shawn

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(edited for grammar)

I won't get the ATI either. The speed is a horrible temptation, but it's easy to fight the temptation since ATI's drivers never work as well as NVIDIA's.

It's exactly the same reason why I always used to buy 3DFX. Nvidia was gaining ground on them fast at the end, but 3DFX's drivers and game support was consistently better. I like top performance as much as the next guy, but not if it takes me hours to figure out how to make each game run correctly. Or if I have to wait weeks for a patch for new games to make them work.

[ 09-03-2002, 08:18 PM: Message edited by: Advil ]

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Guest Hellbinder[CE]

i simply disagree with most of your attitudes about ATI. I own an 8500 and a GF4. I have had various driver issues with both. Neither one stands out over the other. I even have games that hard-lock on My GF4 but not the 8500. (like the bridge level of Americas Army).

This incessent downplaying of ATi products do to *driver* issues is *WAY* out of control.

As for teh 9700 lockup issue... 99% of people are *not* expeienceing lockups with 3Dmark. It's clearly Not the drivers. It is most likely your AGP driver, or a power issue with your mobo.

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Guest Hellbinder[CE]

quote:

It's slower than I expected.

ANY kind of AA makes the screen stutter (even 2x / quality), at whatever resolution.

Many games have problems (such as stuttering in EnB and a few misc problems in BCM)

Using the wrong driver makes 90% of your games look all buggy (teehee in Flashpoint the "floor" changed "height" depending on my view pitch)

And it's not as powerful as I expected.

I haven'T updated my sys info, just change the vidcard to a ATI Radeon 8500LE 64mbm drivers 7.72 (if I remmeber well)


I pretty much have none of the above stated issues with my 8500. I find it plenty powerful (but not as powerful as my GF4). 2x FSAA looks great and is playable in many games. Being that it is SSAA it looks *much* better than the GF4's MSAA altough its slower.

I Find it very interesting that you say that *90%* Your games look buggy with the wrong drivers... um... which ones would those be?? the origional set? Especially since the Catalyst drivers started thigs are *very* good. I dont have any wierd driver glitches in any of teh games I own.. which are a LOT.

Just as one example my GF4 has had *more* wierd quirky issues with various games depending on the driver set used. Why just this new 40.41 DET release *totally* Fubared Asherons Call 2 Beta, messed up anarchy online... Completely disabled all texture filtering except point by default... has wierd screen tearing issues.... among other things... But *Damn* does nature ever run faster....

It was not till the 30.82 release that I really felt good about the Nvidia drivers fro the GF4.

Im just trying to be the voice of reason around here. the Nvidiocy is running pretty deep.. I need some hip waders for sure....

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Guest Fox__Trot

the last great thing ATI did was the rage fury maxx and lets face it that was what 2000? Nvidia usualy gets there first and are nearly always faster then the radeon cards (nearly always being on every card ive ever checked) of course if the new NV30 boards dont get out soon ... well nvidia might be hurting .... (Only because people well want the higherend card NOW even if the drivers suck of course)

my talk about nvidia being better then anything from ati is usualy dealing with the drivers and not the hardware

[ 09-04-2002, 01:41 AM: Message edited by: Fox__Trot ]

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quote:

Originally posted by Hellbinder:

As for teh 9700 lockup issue... 99% of people are *not* expeienceing lockups with 3Dmark..

True....

quote:

Originally posted by Hellbinder:

It's clearly Not the drivers.

I believe this also since I tried two different sets of drivers, and the card works flawless on my 845BG motherboard.

quote:

Originally posted by Hellbinder:

It is most likely your AGP driver, or a power issue with your mobo.

I don't see it being the AGP driver since the 845BG and 850MVxx motherboards use the same Intel AGP driver.

I also swapped out my power supply with two different ones (including the same power supply that I use for my 845BG machine) and this did not correct the problem. I don't think it is a power issue at all.

I think the problem is specific to my motherboard. Not the whole 850EMV2 series of motherboards, just mine. Anand over at Anandtech benchmarked his 9700 on the same motherboard with the same bios and same processor and his 3DMark worked flawless.

I just purchased another 850EMV2 motherboard for another machine I am building, and I will reply with the results when I know if it works.

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Guest Hellbinder[CE]

quote:

the last great thing ATI did was the rage fury maxx and lets face it that was what 2000? Nvidia usualy gets there first and are nearly always faster then the radeon cards (nearly always being on every card ive ever checked) of course if the new NV30 boards dont get out soon ... well nvidia might be hurting .... (Only because people well want the higherend card NOW even if the drivers suck of course)

my talk about nvidia being better then anything from ati is usualy dealing with the drivers and not the hardware


Again.. I *TOTALLY* disagree with you. The Origional Radeon was Faster than a GF2 in several tests and included rudimentary pixel shaders. The 8500 after its initial driver release is Equal and faster than a GF3 Ti 500 and has noticable better IQ (texture clarity).. the best looking FSAA until the 9700 came out and the only card to support N-Patches, and PS 1.4... The GF4 offers no new features over the GF3 its just faster.

The 9700 offers Plenty of features and flat out the Fastest best looking FSAA+Aniso solution ever released. Its 6x FSAA scores are higher than the GF4's 4x SCores in nearly every resolution.... and its 4x Acores with 8x Aniso (its capable of 16x) are up to 5x faster depending on the game. There is simply no comparrison.

quote:

(Only because people well want the higherend card NOW even if the drivers suck of course)


This comment just ticks me off. You dont even own the card. SC told you the drivers are good. and you still insinuate That people are selling out for speed even though the drivers *suck*??? WEll guess what.. the card is AWESOME and the driuvers are AWESOME... Although I doubt that my statemet will impact you at all. You will still be telling everyone ATi sux, your a sellout for speed... their drivers suck.. no matter what anyone proves to you..

Nv30 will undoubtedly be a great product and in all likelyhood be faster than the 9700 in high res tests. Especially if its *rumored* 32GB bandwidth come through.

[ 09-04-2002, 03:00 AM: Message edited by: Hellbinder ]

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Guest Hellbinder[CE]

quote:

Intel 2.53 (533)

Intel 850MVSE motherboard


Now you have me gulping a little bit... that i think about it.. I have a i850MD2 and a P4 2.4B.... And a 350 wat power supply...

I guess we will find out if there is a real compatability issue with the 850 series in a few days when my 9700 gets here....

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Guest Fox__Trot

quote:

Again.. I *TOTALLY* disagree with you. The Origional Radeon was Faster than a GF2 in several tests and included rudimentary pixel shaders.

You cant disagree with me again that was my first post anyways... the GF 2 is a better card thanks to improved drivers and it IS faster NOW then the origonal radeons

quote:

The 9700 offers Plenty of features and flat out the Fastest best looking FSAA+Aniso solution ever released. Its 6x FSAA scores are higher than the GF4's 4x SCores in nearly every resolution.... and its 4x Acores with 8x Aniso (its capable of 16x) are up to 5x faster depending on the game. There is simply no comparrison.


Your right theres not but I put the 9700 as going up against the NV30 (when its out) and the 8500le/whatever else against the geforce 4 You cant compare a next gen card against an older generation its not fair

quote:

Although I doubt that my statemet will impact you at all.

yep

quote:

You will still be telling everyone ATi sux, your a sellout for speed... their drivers suck..

Ive plenty of freinds who own radeons and most of those regret it as ATI has forgone driver support where as most nvidia cards imrpove overtime (And no no one i knows currently owns a 9700)

quote:

Nv30 will undoubtedly be a great product and in all likelyhood be faster than the 9700 in high res tests. Especially if its *rumored* 32GB bandwidth come through.


Wasnt relly getting at the speed of the card earlyer

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quote:

Originally posted by Hellbinder:

quote:

Intel 2.53 (533)

Intel 850MVSE motherboard


Now you have me gulping a little bit... that i think about it.. I have a i850MD2 and a P4 2.4B.... And a 350 wat power supply...

I guess we will find out if there is a real compatability issue with the 850 series in a few days when my 9700 gets here....


Good News. I bought a new 850EMV2 motherboard and my Radeon 9700 works flawless on it. I have been running 3DMark all night long and not one lock up (using the default 9700 drivers).

My new motherboard, and my other one are the same Bios, same model, everything. I still don't why it did not work with the 9700. But at least I feel better because the visuals (and 2D) of the 9700 are awesome when comparing them to my Ti4600.

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Guest Fox__Trot

For the record: Im not totaly against ATI I just belive nvidia is a better company of course im still thinking about a matrox parheilia what with surround gameing

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Guest Grayfox

wow, people really get upset if you disagree about what vid card you prefer...

damn take a pill and go lie down for a bit hellbinder, fox didnt say anything about selling out, and your going off the deep end.

just chill out. no one here is selling out. its just a difference of opinion. ati had a track record of producing crappy drivers. they dont now and thats fine. im happy for them. ive owned 2 ati cards, and just plain got tired of the incompatibility with the programs i was trying to run. i think it is good for ati to now improve their drivers. it should be good business for them.

me? i went to nvidia because 3dfx is out of business (i was a long time voodoo fan) and i was tired of spending money on a product that was incompatible with MY system. i want a piece of hardware that is compatible with my system, and im not going to build my system just to accomodate 1 piece of hardware. i mean cmon, why should i blow some cash on a mobo just to accomodate a vid card??? thats ridiculous. if you want the vid card bad enough to buy a new mobo and all the trimmings then thats YOUR choice and you are entitled to it.

that is why i switched. the ti4200 may be slower thatn the 9700 and i dont care. it gets what i want done without lockups or crashes or any other problems and its within MY pricerange...(im not saying the 9700 would crash and lockup)and i think that is whats important. as long as YOU think it was worth the purchase. who cares what anyone else thinks.

i just wish 3dfx didnt go out of business...

[ 09-04-2002, 03:47 PM: Message edited by: Grayfox ]

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quote:


Originally posted by Grayfox:

wow, people really get upset if you disagree about what vid card you prefer...

..


heh, you think?

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quote:

Originally posted by Supreme Cmdr:

quote:

Originally posted by Grayfox:

wow, people really get upset if you disagree about what vid card you prefer...

..

heh, you think?


That's because nVidia cards are the best now that 3dFX is gone. Go ti 4600! YEAH!!!

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Guest Hellbinder[CE]

quote:

damn take a pill and go lie down for a bit hellbinder, fox didnt say anything about selling out, and your going off the deep end.


No I dont care what video cards people like.. What does bother me is..

[begin scinario]

*Brand X sux*

Why?

*because their hardware and drivers suck*

But what about this list of 100 awesome things

*I dont care.. Brand x Sux and I am going to tell anyone who askes me that their drivers are crap so dont buy one. It you do your a sell out for speed, becuase the quality sux*

Buuut.... Wait a sec... A premier Developer just told you that the drivers have *NO* problems.. and are a HUGE difference from a year ago... not to mention its the fastest card ever made, and has the best IQ ever..

*I dont care.. brand x Sux and I am going to tell anyone who askes me that their drivers are crap so dont buy one. It you do your a sell out for speed, becuase the quality sux*

[/end scinario]

Sure you are free to think what you like.. but dont expect to not be called out on the carpet for blantant unjustifird Bias.

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Guest Hellbinder[CE]

quote:

Your right theres not but I put the 9700 as going up against the NV30 (when its out) and the 8500le/whatever else against the geforce 4 You cant compare a next gen card against an older generation its not fair


Funny last time I checked the 8500 was designed to compete agaisnt the GF3.. Not even the Ti 500... and the GF4 came out 8 months later... The Nv30 is going to have to compete with the 9700XT a 400mhz core DDR II chip... Nv30 is not going to be released till late December at the earliest. It was not even taped out till about 2 weeks ago.

[ 09-04-2002, 08:25 PM: Message edited by: Hellbinder ]

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Nvidia seems to have the great idea of waiting for a little bit AFTER Raedon's top-of-the-line card comes out, and then coming out with their own that always ends up being better (giving the impression that you should never buy ATI, just wait for Nvidia cause they will always be better) I don't know, it may just be me, but it looks BAD when one company releases a good product and then their competetor keeps beating them...

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