Menchise Posted October 11, 2002 Report Share Posted October 11, 2002 quote:I don't see how might makes right can be viewed as a philosophy of lawlessness. Might makes right is the cornerstone of enforcing law in any nation... that's why there are millions of police officers in the United States, after all. They are the 'might' that enforces what the majority of people feel is 'right'.'Might makes right' argues that the usage of more powerful force is right simply because the force is more powerful. It's a circular argument, hence it's illogical. What makes the enforcement of morals right is the morality, not the force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWells Posted October 11, 2002 Report Share Posted October 11, 2002 quote:'Might makes right' argues that the usage of more powerful force is right simply because the force is more powerful.That's the way the world works, whether you choose to see it or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 11, 2002 Report Share Posted October 11, 2002 Might makes right? I think that in the case of the US, it is true. We do not use our might easily. We have been attacked, so we fought back, and destroyed the government that was helping the terrorists who attacked us. This tells other countries that if you support such terrorists, we will do the same to you, so stop, or be destroyed. Saaddam is involved up to his eyeballs in terrorism and Al Quaeda, the evidence is there, you just have to see them, and not ignore them because they are not what you want to see. If one of the terrorist cells that Saddam is supporting gets hold of a WMD from him, then all bets are off, we HAVE to stop him before that occorus. Might makes right in this case, we have the might, and we have the right to destroy him. You may like to talk about your conmspiracies about oil, and how it is all about big business etc. BUT it is NOT!! Iraq, by taking down Saddam will bring the price of oil down to such a point where most of the oil companies are not going to make a lot of profit because oil will glut the market, and bring the price WAY down. This is another reason that Russia is so upset about us attacking Iraq, Russia cannot afford oil prices to drop to $19 a barrel, and niether can the oil companies. If it were all about oil, we would leave Saddam alone and make sure the sanctions stayed in place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted October 11, 2002 Report Share Posted October 11, 2002 quote: The first reason why 'might makes right' is hypocritical: It's easy to say 'might makes right' when you happen to be on the side with more might. If that were not the case, the argument wouldn't be so appealing. And read my response again darling. This specific argument against might makes right is invalid, because the inverse is true as well, when you donÔÇÖt have sufficient might the argument of might makes right is unappealing. ItÔÇÖs just a matter of which side youÔÇÖre on, nothing more. quote: In what way does your response indicate that it's hard to say 'might makes right' when you happen to be on the side with more might? Better yet, in what way does your response indicate that that's not hypocritical? ItÔÇÖs just as hypocritical as arguing that might doesnÔÇÖt make right when you are on the side without might. Anyway, I donÔÇÖt care much about hypocracy, everyone is a hypocrite at some level, and I see no reason to pretend this isnÔÇÖt the case. quote: Can you be more specific? That sounds like the EU to me. The EU? Not at all, IÔÇÖm not well versed with whatÔÇÖs on with the European Union at the moment, but if anything that is not what IÔÇÖm talking about. Rather, IÔÇÖm referring to all of the nations as being a relatively small group of entities (especially when you consider how truly pathetic most of them are), and thus they can successfully function with the premise that might makes right. quote: Catch-22. 'Might makes right' is contrary to moral law. You believe that 'might makes right' is possible within the boundaries of moral law, but one needs morals in order to make those laws. If everyone supports the concept of 'might makes right', then there would be no moral lawmakers to set those boundaries. The result is lawlessness and self-destruction. Well, yes, that is possible, but I donÔÇÖt think it would happen. A government that recognized might as making right would be well within its rights to create laws so as to maintain order and keep things working well. This would include laws against killing, and theft, and all of that, but because such activities are detrimental to society (and thus the government) rather then because of morality. IÔÇÖm not certain it would work, a test would be required, but it seams functional. quote: Explain how it would be bad for minorities, or how it would be "more infeasible" in large groups. Darling, please, how could you ever hope to implement that kind of system? I canÔÇÖt think of any way of objectively determining how much impact something has on someone, and running a government with some kind of subjective measure of voting power is ridiculous, not to mention a wide open pathway for corruption. As for the potential harm to minorities, well, if the aggregate affect on the majority group was greater then the aggregate affect on the minority (however this is calculated) then it would allow the majority to harm the minority. If you need an example, darling, imagine the government wanted to put a highway through the land of a bunch of hick farmers, only the farmers (being hicks) didnÔÇÖt want to sell, and so the government wants to evict the farmers. Ok, letÔÇÖs decide this democratically. The highway would be beneficial to hundreds of people, cutting thousands of man hours off of travel times every month, thatÔÇÖs a big benefit for a lot of people (never mind trying to decide who is affected, and who will never use the highway in there lives, itÔÇÖs near impossible), and the hic farmers will be put off of there land, a major affect, but nothing they couldnÔÇÖt survive (whether or not there was compensation), so the people who want the highway have a massively greater aggregate affect simply because of there numbers. This is another form of might makes right, this time political might rather then military (though should the farmers decide that they werenÔÇÖt giving up there land, it would get violent). Admittedly better then Athenian democracy, but none the less a potential for taking advantage of minorities. Rather hypocritical wouldnÔÇÖt you say darling? quote: By the way, my name is not darling. It's Nick. Oh dear, IÔÇÖm so sorry darling, I didnÔÇÖt know. quote: 'Might makes right' argues that the usage of more powerful force is right simply because the force is more powerful. It's a circular argument, hence it's illogical. What makes the enforcement of morals right is the morality, not the force. And who, pray tell, decides what is moral and what is not. I have my own version of morality, and it isnÔÇÖt anything like the social norm, so who decides whether or not to use my sense of morality? Why, the people with the most might of course, in this case both political might (because there are so many of them my vote counts as nothing in comparison) and more physical might (because there are more of them, and thus I canÔÇÖt really do anything to stop them). And darling, if I may turn your attention to your earlier point where you were berating the concept of might making right because it was hypocritical, you will note that by arguing against hypocrisy you simply become more of a hypocrite. quote: That's the way the world works, whether you choose to see it or not. Exactly right darling, though a lot of people would like to pretend otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Trotter Posted October 11, 2002 Report Share Posted October 11, 2002 News Flash! The Democratic party taken over by "dumb hobos" and welfare recipients! quote:..A lot of liberals are liberal because they are getting money from the government... Dragon Lady That's beneath you . Do you really expect me to believe someone who writes as well as you would really utter such a stupid remark? Quantify your remark. For example " a lot of the liberals I know" or "the liberals around here.." something to that effect because in truth you are proably don't know " a lot of liberals" Progressive political thought is not monolithic. quote:I can't really blame somone who is benefiting from welfare for not objecting too hard Did I hurt your feelings? I must have and if thats the case my apologies. Why else would you accuse someone with opposing views of being a welfare recipient? I have a good job and my wife is even more well heeled and even if I was on welfare , it is nothing to be ashamed of. You right wingers need to read up on the cost of welfare. It accounts for less of your tax dollar than you have been lead to believe , a lot less. And if you have ever been to college and recived a Pell grant YOU TOOK MONEY FROM THE GOVERNMENT! You don't get to choose where your tax dollar goes or else I would insure so much of mine wouldn't end up in some corporate exec's golden parachute after his company goes under or in the pocket of some rich guy begging the public to pay for his football stadium. Tough Ti**y! If you don't like it run for office , campaign for a candidate or move. But please no more stupid remarks that can't possibly be representative of the agile mind and sharp tongue I had come to respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted October 11, 2002 Report Share Posted October 11, 2002 quote: Dragon Lady That's beneath you . Do you really expect me to believe someone who writes as well as you would really utter such a stupid remark? Quantify your remark. For example " a lot of the liberals I know" or "the liberals around here.." something to that effect because in truth you are proably don't know " a lot of liberals" Progressive political thought is not monolithic. You got me on this one darling, I would never do anything as crude ask someone if they were on welfare, and I donÔÇÖt usually discuss politics face to face often, so no, I donÔÇÖt really know many liberals (or donÔÇÖt know if I do). Anyway, IÔÇÖll concede the point for the moment as I donÔÇÖt really have any solid evidence to back me up. quote: Did I hurt your feelings? I must have and if thats the case my apologies. Well thank you darling, though I wasnÔÇÖt more then a little miffed. quote: I have a good job and my wife is even more well heeled and even if I was on welfare , it is nothing to be ashamed of. You right wingers need to read up on the cost of welfare. It accounts for less of your tax dollar than you have been lead to believe , a lot less. First of all, I wonÔÇÖt trying to say that you were on welfare, and no, itÔÇÖs not really something to be ashamed of, after all who could blame someone for taking advantage of such an obvious resource. WhatÔÇÖs shameful is that itÔÇÖs available to begin with. I donÔÇÖt have any evidence on way or the other on cost, but that really isnÔÇÖt the main point for me anyway, the simple idea of being made to pay for someone else is disgraceful, and whether that it is a lot of money is immaterial. If someone canÔÇÖt manage for themselves (and they donÔÇÖt have someone willing to help them out) then they shouldnÔÇÖt be able to do what is in effect stealing from others. That they do is not the problem, I canÔÇÖt blame them, but that they are allowed to is truly vile. quote: And if you have ever been to college and recived a Pell grant YOU TOOK MONEY FROM THE GOVERNMENT! A Pell grant darling? Oh please, the only conceivable way I could get a Pell grant is if I lied, Pell grants are rather hard to get as I understand it (admittedly I have never even been in the financial aid office of the college IÔÇÖm going to, so I donÔÇÖt really know with 100% certainty, but I doubt I could get a grant). quote: You don't get to choose where your tax dollar goes or else I would insure so much of mine wouldn't end up in some corporate exec's golden parachute after his company goes under or in the pocket of some rich guy begging the public to pay for his football stadium. Well, I wont pretend knowledge of such things, I donÔÇÖt care much for football (as in, I wouldnÔÇÖt care much if every single football player suddenly keeled over dead), as for the execs, I donÔÇÖt think that is exactly approved government spending. You may not always be able to decide where your taxes go, but that is no excuse for not trying (or at least complaining about it). quote: Tough Ti**y! If you don't like it run for office , campaign for a candidate or move. But please no more stupid remarks that can't possibly be representative of the agile mind and sharp tongue I had come to respect. I donÔÇÖt have much of a future in politics darling, I really donÔÇÖt, and as for my ideas, well, you simply misinterpreted some of what I was saying. I just reread my post, and yes, it does appear as though IÔÇÖm suggesting youÔÇÖre on welfare, my apologies, that wasnÔÇÖt my intent. The rest of what I had to say, however, still stands. It is still ridiculous to be able to take my money and give it to the poor and disadvantaged, and the US government is still in the right about raining hell of Afghanistan (and please, no more of your graphic descriptions, one was quite enough). If you want to make donations, be my guest, but I happen to be related to one or two of these disadvantaged individuals, and it really is there fault. [ 10-11-2002, 03:31 PM: Message edited by: Dragon Lady ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWells Posted October 11, 2002 Report Share Posted October 11, 2002 Now that I've spent the day working on my car (a quite relaxing past time), I'll come back to this argument... quote: What makes the enforcement of morals right is the morality, not the force. As Dragon Lady pointed out, it's the force of the majority that determines what morality is to begin with. Morality is not something that people are born with, it's learnt from parents, peers, teachers, and the media as a child grows and develops. The values instilled are the values of the society. If a child was raised to believe that murder was acceptable they wouldn't view murder as an amoral act. Take a look at the Middle East where in the most of the region women simply dressing the way they do in the Unitied States is considered amoral, or take a look at Africa where removing a girl's clitoris so she won't enjoy sex is considered socially acceptable and would be appalling to most people in the United States. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted October 12, 2002 Report Share Posted October 12, 2002 I donÔÇÖt know what to say darling, you came up with something even I find lothesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWells Posted October 12, 2002 Report Share Posted October 12, 2002 I think most people in the United States would find that practice loathsome (hell, I felt sick when I met somebody from Africa who had been through that and described how it was done... I won't repeat it here, though), but it's viewed on quite differently in many parts of Africa. It just goes to show how widely morals can vary. [ 10-11-2002, 09:07 PM: Message edited by: Litvyak ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lotharr Posted October 12, 2002 Report Share Posted October 12, 2002 quote: Well, some explanation might be nice, I truthfully am curious. As for something inside be having been excised, I havent a clue, I have never really felt much for others, though I do remember being more compassionate when I was younger, but honestly I have always worked to not care much about others."The fundamental source of all your errors, sophisms and false reasonings is a total ignorance of the natural rights of mankind. Were you once to become acquainted with these, you could never entertain a thought, that all men are not, by nature, entitled to a parity of privileges. You would be convinced, that natural liberty is a gift of the beneficent Creator to the whole human race, and that civil liberty is founded in that; and cannot be wrested from any people, without the most manifest violation of justice." Alexander Hamilton quote: First of all, I have to agree with Jaguar, its hard to really understand what youre talking about, be specific. I was talking about the privileged class that uses massive imbalances in wealth to keep a certain people one top and running things while everyone else is looking for crumbs, praying for a chance to sell out and be part of the tiny fold.... "Government is instituted for the common good; for the protection, safety, prosperity, and happiness of the people; and not for profit, honor, or private interest of any one man, family, or class of men; therefore, the people alone have an incontestable, unalienable, and indefeasible right to institute government; and to reform, alter, or totally change the same, when their protection, safety, prosperity, and happiness require it." John Adams "If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. we ask not your council or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen." -- Samuel Adams There is a great hypocrisy infecting this country. One that will not go away by pretending it doesnt exist. It will only grow stronger as the evidence and casualties mount.... "No people will tamely surrender their Liberties, nor can any be easily subdued, when knowledge is diffusd and Virtue is preservd. On the Contrary, when People are universally ignorant, and debauchd in their Manners, they will sink under their own weight without the Aid of foreign Invaders." Samuel Adams We claim to be courageous and educated as Americans yet we are manipulated by fear in almost every way and have one of the worst education levels in the industrialized world.there is a pervasive lie going around. "They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin quote: This country was based on ME, ME, ME, you have responsibility for yourself, it is NOT my responsibility to take care of those that cannot take care of themselves, unless they were within my immediate family, otherwise they are their families responsibility not mine. Property was very important idea to insuring freedom and liberty...but it was a bit more than me me me.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted October 12, 2002 Report Share Posted October 12, 2002 quote: "The fundamental source of all your errors, sophisms and false reasonings is a total ignorance of the natural rights of mankind. Were you once to become acquainted with these, you could never entertain a thought, that all men are not, by nature, entitled to a parity of privileges. You would be convinced, that natural liberty is a gift of the beneficent Creator to the whole human race, and that civil liberty is founded in that; and cannot be wrested from any people, without the most manifest violation of justice." Alexander Hamilton I ask for an explanation and you quote this arrogant bastard. I know perfectly well what natural rights are, and I simply dont believe in them because that would require intrinsic meaning, and no meaning is intrinsic. I honestly would like it if you could at least try to explain how people can care about what happens outside of the group of people they know and like. quote: I was talking about the privileged class that uses massive imbalances in wealth to keep a certain people one top and running things while everyone else is looking for crumbs, praying for a chance to sell out and be part of the tiny fold.... An absolutely delightful system, I dont really see anything wrong with it. quote: "Government is instituted for the common good; for the protection, safety, prosperity, and happiness of the people; and not for profit, honor, or private interest of any one man, family, or class of men; therefore, the people alone have an incontestable, unalienable, and indefeasible right to institute government; and to reform, alter, or totally change the same, when their protection, safety, prosperity, and happiness require it." John Adams Well darling, that is a rather idealistic quote, not to mention rather inaccurate. The purpose of government is to create a framework in which people may work together (both in concert and in conflict), both to increase the standard of living of all and to allow some to rise to the top. quote: There is a great hypocrisy infecting this country. One that will not go away by pretending it doesnt exist. It will only grow stronger as the evidence and casualties mount.... Yes, you said this before, but what is wrong with a little hypocrisy? Or a few casualties for that matter? quote: "No people will tamely surrender their Liberties, nor can any be easily subdued, when knowledge is diffusd and Virtue is preservd. On the Contrary, when People are universally ignorant, and debauchd in their Manners, they will sink under their own weight without the Aid of foreign Invaders." Samuel Adams It makes sense, though I would like to see evidence before I believed this unilaterally. quote: We claim to be courageous and educated as Americans yet we are manipulated by fear in almost every way and have one of the worst education levels in the industrialized world.there is a pervasive lie going around. I am a vicious and educated American, which is better then being a courageous one. The masses though, well, it is for the better that there level of education is limited to what is necessary, and courage is highly overrated (besides being another trait that Im glad the masses do not have). quote: "They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin Benjamin Franklin eh? Wasnt that the chap who came up with daylight savings time? He had a lot of good ideas, but that only extends so far. Trading liberty for temporary for safety often does result in an absence of either, but that doesnt mean that they dont deserve safety. Perhaps Im just feudalist at heart, but I believe that if youre willing to take someones liberty in trade for there safety, then you are obliged to grant said safety in return. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menchise Posted October 12, 2002 Report Share Posted October 12, 2002 quote:That's the way the world works, whether you choose to see it or not.That is a worthless argument, because the way the world operates is always subject to change. There was once a time when slave societies made the world go 'round. Did that justify or even rationalize them? quote:Might makes right? I think that in the case of the US, it is true. We do not use our might easily.There's a book you should read called 'Rogue State' by William Blum. It provides details of remarkable ease of using force by the USA. quote:Saaddam is involved up to his eyeballs in terrorism and Al Quaeda, the evidence is there, you just have to see them, and not ignore them because they are not what you want to see.I have not seen any evidence of this, and I have seen more compelling arguments for why Saddam and "Al Quaeda" would be enemies of each other. quote:If one of the terrorist cells that Saddam is supporting gets hold of a WMD from him, then all bets are off, we HAVE to stop him before that occorus. Might makes right in this case, we have the might, and we have the right to destroy him.Circular argument. There is no hard evidence that Saddam has WMD, and any such evidence would support the need for inspections, not a military invasion, which would put Saddam in a situation where he would actually use such weapons if he had them. quote:You may like to talk about your conmspiracies about oil, and how it is all about big business etc. BUT it is NOT!! Iraq, by taking down Saddam will bring the price of oil down to such a point where most of the oil companies are not going to make a lot of profit because oil will glut the market, and bring the price WAY down.A price drop would be temporary; this is about long term oil interests. If the US takes control of Iraq, it would give American oil companies a monopoly (or the big slice of an oligopoly) on the world's second largest oil reserves. Such a benefit clearly outweighs a temporary price drop. quote:This is another reason that Russia is so upset about us attacking Iraq, Russia cannot afford oil prices to drop to $19 a barrel, and niether can the oil companies. If it were all about oil, we would leave Saddam alone and make sure the sanctions stayed in place.Russia is opposing the invasion because the Russian oil companies would be excluded from operating in Iraq, or at least lose the influence they currently have. That's why the US government is trying to make deals with Russia and France to get their support in exchange for a piece of the pie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWells Posted October 12, 2002 Report Share Posted October 12, 2002 quote:That is a worthless argument, because the way the world operates is always subject to change. There was once a time when slave societies made the world go 'round. Did that justify or even rationalize them?Slave societies were just another form of might makes right in action. Might makes right is always the way world works, though the forms it takes evolves over time. Are slave societies considered acceptable today? Of course not, because that's the people with the most power are against slaverly. At the time when slaverly was at its peak it was considered right because the people with the most power wanted slaverly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted October 12, 2002 Report Share Posted October 12, 2002 Very well said darling, I couldnÔÇÖt have done better myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWells Posted October 12, 2002 Report Share Posted October 12, 2002 What can I say? I occassionally find something intelligent sounding to post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted October 12, 2002 Report Share Posted October 12, 2002 More then just occasionally darling [ 10-12-2002, 01:41 AM: Message edited by: Dragon Lady ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lotharr Posted October 12, 2002 Report Share Posted October 12, 2002 quote: I ask for an explanation and you quote this arrogant bastard If I had to pick between his arrogance or yours I think I'd have to go with his... quote: It makes sense, though I would like to see evidence before I believed this unilaterally. Darling the evidence isn't that far at all.... quote: I am a vicious and educated American Lets not get carried away now darling... quote: A price drop would be temporary; this is about long term oil interests. If the US takes control of Iraq, it would give American oil companies a monopoly (or the big slice of an oligopoly) on the world's second largest oil reserves. Such a benefit clearly outweighs a temporary price drop. Yup... quote: because that's the people with the most power are against slaverly History would seem to suggest an ongoing struggle to improve....those in power usually resist this change because of fear, narrow-mindedness, and complacency. This struggle to promote the good in people is not just a way to keep people in line....that is true cynicism I would guess that seeking to improve as an individual and as a society is the ultimate challenge....more fulfilling then owning some new shiny thing or trying to play master of the universe in the ultimate foot ball game....but one wouldn't know it when barraged by propaganda that strokes the ego and promises "success" if you live only for yourself. I don't think we will ever reach perfection but if we do not try then we will most likely not survive. The idea of realizing our flaws and trying to encode this understanding into structures for governance..while promoting the individual to grow and be free of oppression is an on going process and a just ideal.... Now more than ever we have to try to remove the power from the corrupt and the greedy to insure the survival of our planet. There are only so many resources to be gathered in current forms and this planet can only take so much abuse. As an American I am not entitled to live at the expense of others and vice versa....to live so out of balance is not moral and in the end will ultimately prove to be self destructive. Does that mean everyone has to be 100% equal? No, but the line has to be drawn somewhere....no person is worth a billion dollars annually....just because a person is born with a golden spoon up their arse doesn't make them fit to do much of anything but try to gather more spoons...fine...but I'll be damned if I'm going to sit back and let people be turned into exploitable assets because a small group of greedy sociopaths thinks their games are part of some manifest destiny....I picked up the notion somewhere that people were born equalnot just AmericansI dont know where.maybe all that liberal education [ 10-12-2002, 02:04 PM: Message edited by: Lotharr ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted October 12, 2002 Report Share Posted October 12, 2002 quote: If I had to pick between his arrogance or yours I think I'd have to go with his... Yes, well, the difference is that there is at least some basis for my arrogance, I dont just stand up on my pulpit and yell you will believe, which is ultimately what he was saying. quote: History would seem to suggest an ongoing struggle to improve....those in power usually resist this change because of fear, narrow-mindedness, and complacency. Well darling, for the last few centuries I would agree, but the same cannot be held true for the dark ages, and this is simply looking at western culture. Im not an expert on eastern culture, but I doubt we could say that china or Japan was striving toward the same ideals of equality for all and such not (in the case of china, that hasnt changed much). Now, lets look at Native Americans. Again, Im not an expert, but they had a very long time in which they accomplished very little as far as developing western ideals (which is basically what you are referring to). I agree that western ideals have been spreading in the last few centuries, but this is because the western countries had to power necessary to spread there ideals, not because of any natural development of mankind. quote: This struggle to promote the good in people is not just a way to keep people in line....that is true cynicism Of course not darling, it was possible to keep people in line centuries ago, on the other hand how many democracies spring up around the world for no purpose but bringing one group or another to power? Its not a way to keep people in line; its a way to use people to gain power. quote: I would guess that seeking to improve as an individual and as a society is the ultimate challenge The ultimate challenge eh? Darling, the ultimate challenge is to strive for ultimate personal gain. quote: more fulfilling then owning some new shiny thing or trying to play master of the universe in the ultimate foot ball game I dont know, I rather like shiny things, especially when I can wear them, as for playing master of the universe in the ultimate football game, well, that just makes no sense. quote: but one wouldn't know it when barraged by propaganda that strokes the ego and promises "success" if you live only for yourself. And how much propaganda is there to do what is best for society? In our youth, how many stories are we bombarded with about what great upstanding people the various historical figures of this country are, and how many films have you seen that promote the idea of doing whats best for humanity rather then for yourself, and how many books have your read with a similarly heroic plot? Sure, you see wealthy people and you wish you had that much money and such not and so fourth, but you also loath them because they have all that money and you dont. Its called envy, darling. quote: I don't think we will ever reach perfection but if we do not try then we will most likely not survive. Hogwash! Humanity has been successfully subjugating itself for thousands of years; nothing has changed except the scope. And if you are referring to WMDs, then yes, there is a danger of an apocalyptic war, but in truth that has more to do with common sense and less to do with humans striving for some ethereal perfection. quote: There are only so many resources to be gathered in current forms and this planet can only take so much abuse. Again, common sense, and nothing to do with striving toward freedom or any similar nonsense. quote: just because a person is born with a golden spoon up their arse doesn't make them fit to do much of anything but try to gather more spoons Oops I thought the point was to gather the whole silverware set quote: but I'll be damned if I'm going to sit back and let people be turned into exploitable assets because a small group of greedy sociopaths thinks their games are part of some manifest destiny Not manifest destiny darling, just a fair approximation there of. Anyway, how many people do you know that are good for much besides becoming exploitable assets (or was that expendable assets, so hard to remember) quote: I picked up the notion somewhere that people were born equalnot just AmericansI dont know where.maybe all that liberal education Yep, that must be it, all I ever got was that all American citizens are suppose to be equal in the eyes of the law, and only then if they happen to have enough money to pay for a good lawyer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWells Posted October 13, 2002 Report Share Posted October 13, 2002 quote: This struggle to promote the good in people is not just a way to keep people in line....that is true cynicism I'd have to disargee. The whole idea of trying to convince others of what qualities and virtues are actually good and what ones are bad is all about keeping people in line. quote: but one wouldn't know it when barraged by propaganda that strokes the ego and promises "success" if you live only for yourself. Well, it's my life why the heck would I live it for anybody but myself?? quote: but I'll be damned if I'm going to sit back and let people be turned into exploitable assets because a small group of greedy sociopaths thinks their games are part of some manifest destiny People don't need to be turned into exploitable assets, many people are quite content to be that way of thier own free will. Some people are wolves and some are sheep... it's just the natural order of things. I mean after all, there's plenty of people who believe in living for other people rather than living for themselves, right?? quote: I picked up the notion somewhere that people were born equalnot just AmericansI dont know where.maybe all that liberal education Equality for everyone... sure you didn't learn that from Karl Marx? Marxism, Socialism, Communism, etc is well proven to not work. Why? Because it goes against human nature. As I said there's wolves and sheep, and there always will be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lotharr Posted October 13, 2002 Report Share Posted October 13, 2002 quote: the difference is that there is at least some basis for my arrogance What basis? quote: I agree that western ideals have been spreading in the last few centuries, but this is because the western countries had to power necessary to spread there ideals, not because of any natural development of mankind. I guess that would be hard to correlate. I would argue that humanity has an inherent desire for "good". I would suggest that most people believe in fair play on various levels and have a sense of justice....not for the sake of order but because it draws upon the nobility of the human spirit...something that can define a person as nothing else can.... I would further suggest that history has demonstrated the human sprit in many different environments but none that seek to develop the more advanced potentials in the majority of its people....there is always an element that seeks to grab more than it's fair share while inhibiting the other sectors of the populous from developing.....but no matter how overt this repression, we always hear tales of the people who embrace the higher ideals of humanity and somehow manage to make something right out of a cruel and confusing world...often times against great odds....these tales stir the soul and speak directly to the human heart...people strive for "good". We've seen special people come forward and offer glimpses of these possible futures before being silenced.....these small glimpses will keep us moving forward...and perhaps one day we will learn to live together in a relatively peaceful and sustainable manner...I think to embrace the self gratification and ease of your position will, in the least, insure the needless suffering and dying of thousands of innocent peopleand the most, end in the destruction of our planet. There is the potential for good and evil in the human spirit....in this country forces move to keep people in a comfort zone of fear, materialism, and ego inspired competitive isolation all the while putting on the happy face and paying lip service to the higher ideals this nation was founded upon.....your up to your neck in themyou are them....I do applaud you for not just buying it like a coke....but I also pity you more..... We have got to move forward.this country should not fall to the wayside in global advancement..and we should definitely not seek to be the strong arm of the greedyto end a great legacy of progress as a two bit thug with a bunch of shiny thingsthat would be an epic tragedy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted October 13, 2002 Report Share Posted October 13, 2002 quote: What basis? That it bloody well works. Im not arguing that its the right way (Ill save that for my next point) simply that it works, and it always has worked. Natural rights are great, but declaring that simply understanding natural rights will make me a believer in utter nonsense. I have studied philosophy, I know what natural rights are, and I think that it is very clearly that I dont believe in them. Anyway, I was a little offended that you would think that quote would explain anything to me. quote: I guess that would be hard to correlate. I would argue that humanity has an inherent desire for "good". Yea, some people do have such a desire, but they tend to realize that theyll get farther if they dont waist there time trying to better all of mankind. quote: I would suggest that most people believe in fair play on various levels and have a sense of justice True, but that sense of fair play doesnt extend much beyond them and there immediate acquaintances. quote: not for the sake of order but because it draws upon the nobility of the human spirit Nonsense darling, theres no such thing. quote: something that can define a person as nothing else can You mean like a dictionary? quote: I would further suggest that history has demonstrated the human sprit in many different environments but none that seek to develop the more advanced potentials in the majority of its people The more advanced potentials eh? I imagine this is another reference to people as being something more then resources, but a bit more explanation would be nice. You tend to assume that everyone knows what your talking about, but I havent more then the vaguest clue. quote: there is always an element that seeks to grab more than it's fair share while inhibiting the other sectors of the populous from developing Fair share darling? You take what you can get and you get what you can take, and thats it. Fair share is the mantra of those who dont have what it takes to succeed. And let me tell you something darling, if someone cant succeed then they deserve nothing. quote: but no matter how overt this repression, we always hear tales of the people who embrace the higher ideals of humanity and somehow manage to make something right out of a cruel and confusing world...often times against great odds Wow, very heroic, you should write a novel. Seriously though, what you mean by higher ideals is ideals that appeal to the failures and incompetents that make up most of the population. Promises of being able to equal those who can succeed, or government sanctioned theft of the resources such successful people have. A few people manage to succeed because of such changes, or perhaps they just scrape by, leeching off of the income of others, but some people will always succeed, and paying failures for being pathetic just encourages them to continue failing. quote: these tales stir the soul and speak directly to the human heart I dont know, I think it stirs my stomach more then my heart, rather nauseating really. quote: people strive for "good". Good being defined, of course, as the failing masses stealing from the successful and powerful few. Darling, thats good like being mugged is good. quote: We've seen special people come forward and offer glimpses of these possible futures before being silenced Yea, if someone was preaching about reducing me to the lowest common denominator I think silencing him would be a little kind. And thats what this is all about anyway, if you cant succeed, then you can at least make others fail. quote: these small glimpses will keep us moving forward Not forward darling, downward, for it is capitalism and self interest that have raised the average standard of living to what it is now. quote: and perhaps one day we will learn to live together in a relatively peaceful and sustainable manner Yea, right, all humanity reduced to peaceful and complacent cows. Im not a big fan of social change, but I like a little more dynamism and conflict then that. quote: I think to embrace the self gratification and ease of your position will, in the least, insure the needless suffering and dying of thousands of innocent people Good riddance. Some people will always succeed and some people will always fail, and failure comes at a price just as success comes with rewards. quote: and the most, end in the destruction of our planet. Im not an environmentalist by a long shot, but protection of our ecosystem is important. quote: There is the potential for good and evil in the human spirit....in this country forces move to keep people in a comfort zone of fear, materialism, and ego inspired competitive isolation all the while putting on the happy face and paying lip service to the higher ideals this nation was founded upon.....your up to your neck in themyou are them....I do applaud you for not just buying it like a coke....but I also pity you more..... Darling, I would tell you not to pity me and that Im happy being what I am, but I dont think that matters, you seam resolved to pity everyone. I shant tell you to save your pity for those more deserving, but rather simply to discard your pity, for surly there is no emotion that degrades both the person it is felt by and the person it is felt fore more. quote: We have got to move forward.this country should not fall to the wayside in global advancement If global advancement means bleeding out my hearts blood for everyone who suffers, then call me backwards and regressive. quote: and we should definitely not seek to be the strong arm of the greedyto end a great legacy of progress as a two bit thug with a bunch of shiny thingsthat would be an epic tragedy. I know darling, I should think we would at the very least be 128 bit thugs Anyway, our legacy of progress has been one of financial and military progress more so then social progress, and like I said before, I rather like shiny things, especially in the form of jewelry. And tragedies are nice too, I absolutely love reading, and tragedy is something that seams to be forgotten about these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolferz Posted October 13, 2002 Report Share Posted October 13, 2002 Well Commander Raven, now that you have Commander Lotharr in the airlock, just push that Open Outer Door button. I'll venture a different slant on the entire issue with one word.... Pre-destination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted October 13, 2002 Report Share Posted October 13, 2002 LMAO! Thank you for the wonderful advice Commander Wolferz, I knew this discussion was going somewhere I can only wonder what you mean by predestination though. IÔÇÖm a determinist myself, but only because I believe that the universe operates in a logical manner (no matter how chaotic it may appear) and that all of the events of the future are based on the matter and energy reacting in an orderly way, with only one possible outcome (and humans, of course, being chemical computers, have no more free will then a photovoltaic cell). IÔÇÖm guessing you mean something different though, would you care to explain? [ 10-13-2002, 12:13 AM: Message edited by: Dragon Lady ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Lindsey Posted October 13, 2002 Report Share Posted October 13, 2002 Meanwhile, back at the ranch; Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolferz Posted October 13, 2002 Report Share Posted October 13, 2002 I just figure we'll end up where we end up. It's a make your own luck kinda world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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