America's role, PART 2!!

[Lotharr]

In the end it comes down to belief....most will fall back on what they have been told is correct by society....others will not....in the end who really knows....I don't...but I would rather be defined by actions rather than shiny things....and I don't think I am alone.

DL you have my pity...maybe one day you'll meet someone or see something that will make you think again.....more importantly maybe these recent tragic events and vicious assaults on this country will make everyone think a little more....or perhaps it will take more....

[Raven]

Well darling, I have no problem being defined by my actions, I see nothing wrong with the way I think and act, but as you no doubt know, not everyone shares this belief. Having others decide who I am by my ÔÇ£shiny thingsÔÇØ (a lovely way to put it, I must confess) tends to cause fewer problems. After all, I rather be viewed as ÔÇ£that attractive young lady with the nice ÔÇÿshiny thingsÔÇÖÔÇØ then as ÔÇ£that heartless young lady with her cruel and antiquated philosophyÔÇØ. I donÔÇÖt know, maybe you value honesty more then I do.

As for changing, sure darling, itÔÇÖs possible, but how many people like me ever really change? And truly, I donÔÇÖt know how it is elsewhere, but on the west coast the destruction of the twin towers and the resultant retaliations are not often discussed anymore.

And darling, no need to pity me, I will doubtlessly be vastly more successful then you.

[AWells]

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After all, I rather be viewed as ÔÇ£that attractive young lady with the nice ÔÇÿshiny thingsÔÇÖÔÇØ then as ÔÇ£that heartless young lady with her cruel and antiquated philosophyÔÇØ.

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I don't know, they both sound sexy in thier own way

[Lotharr]

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And darling, no need to pity me

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All the same you have it....and I believe I'm already more successful than you...but good luck...I'm sure you won't hesitate to do what it takes to get to the top...whatever that may be...God bless America....

[ 10-13-2002, 09:25 PM: Message edited by: Lotharr ]

[CommanderJohnson]

Ok, first off, i'm going to start with an interesting editorial that I read in the AJC last week that applies perfectly to every liberal position on here. BE SURE TO READ THIS. ITS A REALLY GOOD AND APPLICABLE ARTICLE.

Anti-Intellectualism=Most of the Posts on Here

Secondly, that I finally have a little bit of time to post, i'm going to REPOST something that I posted on the first America's Role thread MULTIPLE TIMES which I *KNOW* no one has responded to yet, because it makes TOO much sense. It may be a little bit out of context since I was referring to one of Jaguar's old articles, but i'm sure it won't be too hard to find the last time I posted this. I'd appreciate it if I heard a response, since at the point my arguments are conceded, the whole issue of "The United States being evil" becomes totally IRRELEVENT to our ROLE, especially in regards to IRAQ:

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Your also failing to recognize he is oppressing his own people. Regardless of the *PERCIEVED* intent of the attack, a few facts remain that justify an attack:

Saddam is:

1. Oppressing his people/Violating their rights/Has no problem killing them

2. Violating UN Resolutions/Agreements

3. Storing/devloping/has chemical and biological weapons

4. Anti-America

5. A totalitarian dictator

6. Irrational in terms of international actions

7. *WANTING* Nuclear Weapons

8. Supporting Radical Islamic causes (Israeli suicide bombers)

Saddam is probably:

1. Developing Nuclear Weapons

2. Supporting terrorism against the United States

I don't care if the administration is doing it because it'll help their oil or not. An invasion will STILL solve the above problems, and that's what we should care about.

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Would you please ANSWER the above argument (slight edit to #2, HAS historically ignored UN resolutions)? You keep talking about the Bush administration being evil, but you ignore the above, and you ignore the analysis in Jaguar's article about the Leftists position on a war on Iraq. You ALSO fail to respond to the argument that if Saddam is against letting inspectors into civilian facilities, he is OBVIOUSLY hiding something, since he doesn't allow property rights, and it'd be a perfect opportunity to blame the US for another "atrocity" if people's homes are searched. He also doesn't care about his people, so he wouldn't care about letting civilian facilities to be searched. You keep repeating leftist rhetoric while ignore the facts.

[Charles Lindsey]

THanks for taking the hint Dredd. Now on to maliciously attacking you.

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Anti-Intellectualism=Most of the Posts on Here

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Another poorly constructed article. Please explain it to me. He went off on so many of his own tangets it's not even funny. Best I could tell he was calling the author of a comic strip bad names.

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Would you please ANSWER the above argument

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I would but it seems to be directed at Lotharr.

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State law said Gore was screwed

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But this was a federal election. State shouldn't have any say in it. In fact now that I think about it there needs to be federal standards governing state elections for federal positions.

It just coulda gone better ya know? The state should have demanded a recount perhaps. Seems to me I just saw another article where it quoted Florida's recount thresh hold. Something like 2 or 3 percent. I forget what the margin was in Fl but it was close.

I guess what I am miffed at is the hijacking of procedure. It was fast heading towards the secondary process then everyone started getting worried and sued all over the place.

I don't care who would have won but this was a fiasco and a debacle. Had they allowed due process to operate there would be no question.

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Democratic ... country...it's the peoples choice.

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Not when you are pres, your two brothers are governors of two important states, your cousins are senators of three others. It provides too much of a power and control base. Our government was specifically designed with checks and balances of power in mind. That all goes out the window when nepotism is involved to a large degree.

There are anti-nepotism policies in place thoughout this country. In my place of employment you cannot supervise a direct relative. Many companies do not allow fraternization. Why not for the pres? Let us stop building an American Royal Family.

But all that is off topic and my own little gripe.

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, just too long to type out Constitutional Democracy all the time

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And that was shorter? hehe.

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1. It didn't fail. It got rid of an oppressive regime and it caused the people to be free.

1b. Dying free is better than living oppressed.

2. The starvation is attempting to be taken care of.

3. The new "brutal regime" is not brutal. What you referring to is the outer areas and cities of the country being ruled by warlords, which is currently trying to be resolved.

3b. The new regime is an elected regime, and regardless is much more fair than the Taliban.

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I thought much the same thing.

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Anyway, Bush has war power now

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After finally realizing due process. Too bad it was a poll of the public opinion feeling he needed to go trough congress when him having to go through congress is mandated anyway. Maybe that was from an opinion piece I read.

Well that's enough for now. Thanks for bringing this back on topic Dredd.

[AWells]

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Not when you are pres, your two brothers are governors of two important states, your cousins are senators of three others. It provides too much of a power and control base. Our government was specifically designed with checks and balances of power in mind. That all goes out the window when nepotism is involved to a large degree.

There are anti-nepotism policies in place thoughout this country. In my place of employment you cannot supervise a direct relative. Many companies do not allow fraternization. Why not for the pres? Let us stop building an American Royal Family.

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All six of those positions are elected by the people. It's not like Bush was elected and appointed his family all over the government. And the two Governors aren't even Federal officials.

[Charles Lindsey]

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All six of those positions are elected by the people.

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And that makes nepotism OK because...?

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It's not like Bush was elected and appointed his family all over the government.

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Now that WOULD be wrong and I do believe there are rules in place to prevent that. Seems I do remember some official trying to do just that. I forget whether it was local or national.

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And the two Governors aren't even Federal officials.

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Your point?

My point is that nepotism is recognized as "bad" throughout the country be it private industry or the government. It's just bad. It paves the way for shady deals. So then, since it is bad for most positions throughout the country why is it OK for the fed?

Those two governors might do something to benefit the pres later. No telling what. No need to find out what. Fix it now before it breaks.

Our current president was declared to have won the election based on the outcome of the votes of a state governed by his brother. Very bad form. It would have been much better had Florida not been the crucial state. Bush should have manuevered for Florida to be a non crucial state since his bro was guv. But that would have been nepotism huh?

Fix nepotism. The 2000 elections will go down in history.

Edit in. Bugger I hate editing posts. It makes them look bad. You never can tell what someone meant to say. For what it's worth I fixed some quote formatting. And one horrendous misspelling.

[ 10-14-2002, 12:48 AM: Message edited by: Charles Lindsey ]

[AWells]

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And that makes nepotism OK because...?

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It doesn't make it ok or not ok... it simply means you can vote against if you don't like it.

[Charles Lindsey]

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It doesn't make it ok or not ok... it simply means you can vote against if you don't like it.

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Sneaky basturd. Much like me. Been fun.

[Raven]

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I don't know, they both sound sexy in thier own way

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Thank you darling, I canÔÇÖt help but agree, though most people wouldnÔÇÖt.

[Lotharr]

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2. Violating UN Resolutions/Agreements

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Your right Israel is in violation of resolutions 242 and 338. The land for peace agreements that are hindering real progress.

They are also in violation of 446, 452, and 465 that require Israel to rescind its annexation of greater Jerusalem.

Or do you mean the fact that daily Israel is violating Fourth Geneva Convention by using illegal deportation, demolition of homes, collective punishments and taking of private property....

Or you were talking about Saddam? Oh I wonder where he ever got the notion it was ok to violate UN resolutions and hurt people inside his borders...

On day the hypocrisy will have to end

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What makes human life valuable?

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You tell me.

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virtually surrounded by US supporting nations.

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Hee hee....US support is low and falling....what planet are you on?

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US attacks

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I will never support unilateral action. I certainly won't accept it from a regime that believes Pax Americana is a viable world order....claims a threat when they cant produce any real evidence, and bases its arguments on totally contradictory history.

The idea that we will attack if we think, one day, maybe, you may be a threat is the dumbest thing Ive heard.

I wouldn't be surprised if after the election the Bush crew somehow doesn't try a back flip and end the war drums....

They need to be thinking about the economy..then again why should theythe people losing their jobs and retirements arent the super rich..as I was.onward Christian soldier! Lets go kick some EnronerIraqi bad guy butt.they really cant hit back and damned if doesnt look like were getting something doneand were doing it for the little Iraqi childrenawwww..anyone smell that?

[Raven]

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The idea that we will attack if we think, one day, maybe, you may be a threat is the dumbest thing Ive heard.

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Nonsense, it is an excellent strategy. After all, if threatening the US (or appearing to do so) is unilaterally bad for a countries health, then it wonÔÇÖt happen too much now will it? Not very nice, but effective, and thatÔÇÖs what counts.

[Kevin Trotter]

Lothar has a point and I for one would appreciate it if some of the people who support this police action would admit that that the safety of American citizens isn't the sole or even primary reason the Bush Administration insists upon forcing it.

Still I am floored by the deafening silence when we ask where is the domestic policy? What are we doing to stimulate the economy? what are we doing to improve schools and educate our children. Where is the assurance that those of us who have worked and paid taxes for YEARS will ever see a dime of Social Security benefits? Working Americans who invest in our and our country's future are rooked by slick snake oil salesmen who levrage our childrens future by raiding the companies they have driven in the ground. Nobody's pissed about this?

No one will deny that Hussien is a world class a**hole who truly deserves a sea based Harpoon at his front door with the morning paper , but our number one priority? Please. If he was half the threat we build him up to be the Israeli's would have a plan on the table and planes in the air.

There's an old saying in my career field ,

" When your only tool is a hammer you see every problem as a nail" That's what we're dealing with here.

Our president lacks the patience and subtlety

to be a diplomat , the empathy and vision to be a domestic leader , and the perspective to see that this country is in a bad way and he is doing very little to right the ship. He can't raise a single issue that yields him any political leverage. Certainly not because the Democrats are holding the cards , their inability to forge coherent leadership or a message that people with common goals could get behind is painfully obvious even to me. But because it looks too hard to him. Beating the crap out of a country we could defeat with our reservist is much easier and makes him look the hero. Does anyone think he was anything but a single term president before 9-11? You better wake up and smell what the Bush is cooking

[AWells]

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I don't know, they both sound sexy in thier own way

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Thank you darling, I canÔÇÖt help but agree, though most people wouldnÔÇÖt.

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Oh well... apparantly most poeple don't have taste

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Lothar has a point and I for one would appreciate it if some of the people who support this police action would admit that that the safety of American citizens isn't the sole or even primary reason the Bush Administration insists upon forcing it.

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Does it really make that much of a difference what his motivations are? Many good things occur for less than noble reasons, and the elimination of Saddam certainly sounds like a good thing to me. Hell, if Bush wanted to invade Iraq for no other reason than fun I wouldn't complain.

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Still I am floored by the deafening silence when we ask where is the domestic policy?

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You mean like Clinton's excellent domestic policy of letting the ATF and FBI use tanks to crash through the homes of law abiding gun owners, or shoot thier families right down to the family pet?

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what are we doing to improve schools and educate our children. Where is the assurance that those of us who have worked and paid taxes for YEARS will ever see a dime of Social Security benefits?

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Recycling children and the elderly would sovle that problem. Just remember to vote me for president in 2012.

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Working Americans who invest in our and our country's future are rooked by slick snake oil salesmen who levrage our childrens future by raiding the companies they have driven in the ground. Nobody's pissed about this?

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Not really... nope.

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" When your only tool is a hammer you see every problem as a nail" That's what we're dealing with here.

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I don't know... I have a hammer a few screw drivers and a socket set and I still agree with attacking Iraq.

[ 10-14-2002, 03:36 PM: Message edited by: Litvyak ]

[Kevin Trotter]

Not concerned about working Americans , schools and education ready to go to war at the drop of a hat..congratulations! you are officially Right-wing nut. I only hope you are the right age to go over and pull you own weight instead of having someone else do your fighting for you. Your responses are flip and given the seriousness of these issues inappropriate.

Can't you do any better than that? Oh wait that's just how The Bush administration deals with it..good show!

[AWells]

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Not concerned about working Americans , schools and education

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Really, school children these days are more interested in drugs and shooting each other than education so why be concerned about it?

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ready to go to war at the drop of a hat

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I prefer going to war before the hat drops, personally.

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I only hope you are the right age to go over and pull you own weight instead of having someone else do your fighting for you.

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I'm 24 so I'm the perfect age to go over should I be needed.

[ 10-14-2002, 03:37 PM: Message edited by: Litvyak ]

[Raven]

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Oh well... apparantly most poeple don't have taste

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Very true darling, very true.

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Working Americans who invest in our and our country's future are rooked by slick snake oil salesmen who levrage our childrens future by raiding the companies they have driven in the ground. Nobody's pissed about this?

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Not really... nope.

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Would anyone thing too badly if I agreed oh well, I agree.

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I don't know... I have a hammer a few screw drivers and a socket set and I still agree with attacking Iraq.

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Well I donÔÇÖt even have a hammer (just a snazzy screw driver and a couple of exacto-knives).

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Really, school children these days are more interested in drugs and shooting each other than education so why be concerned about it?

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Well, putting tanks and FBI personnel outside the schools might work

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I prefer going to war before the hat drops, personally.

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Yea, get the drop on them so to speek

War is good for a lot of things, and not just self defense or protecting our interests around the world.

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I only hope you are the right age to go over and pull you own weight instead of having someone else do your fighting for you.

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I'm 24 so I'm the perfect age to go over should I be needed.

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Damn, but I love being a woman

[ 10-14-2002, 04:18 PM: Message edited by: Dragon Lady ]

[AWells]

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Well, putting tanks and FBI personnel outside the schools might work

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Really, I've been thinking that the best to improve education is to rent firearms, body armor and drug paraphenalia in high schools. It gives children access to the fundamental school supplies they need in the high schools of the 21st century while providing a nice source of revenue.

[Raven]

lol

[CommanderJohnson]

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Originally posted by Charles Lindsey:

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Anti-Intellectualism=Most of the Posts on Here

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Another poorly constructed article. Please explain it to me. He went off on so many of his own tangets it's not even funny. Best I could tell he was calling the author of a comic strip bad names.

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Nah, what he is doing is pointing out that most leftist arguments are based in taking what the media and all legitimate authorities say, and turning around and saying "It's all wrong, it's all a conspiracy, and we should do the exact opposite". Evidence and facts supporting the opposing view aren't needed, the leftists just know that the traditional/acceptable/logical/rational view is wrong, and the opposite is right.

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I would but it seems to be directed at Lotharr.

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It's directed at anyone who can answer it, and so far, no one has.

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But this was a federal election. State shouldn't have any say in it. In fact now that I think about it there needs to be federal standards governing state elections for federal positions.

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I agree, there should be federal statutes. I thought it was stupid when the state courts were deciding a federal election.

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It just coulda gone better ya know? The state should have demanded a recount perhaps. Seems to me I just saw another article where it quoted Florida's recount thresh hold. Something like 2 or 3 percent. I forget what the margin was in Fl but it was close.

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Yeah, I agree. They shouldn't have had all the politics involved and they should have just followed the statutes and applied them across the entire state. I think the Democrats screwed their position over by not advocating a recount of the entire state, but that's just me.

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I guess what I am miffed at is the hijacking of procedure. It was fast heading towards the secondary process then everyone started getting worried and sued all over the place.

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The secondary procedure (congress deciding who wins), didn't seem much better. It would have just been putting a select group of politicians in charge of an election, which probably would have bugged even MORE people. I don't think the government can ever win.

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I don't care who would have won but this was a fiasco and a debacle. Had they allowed due process to operate there would be no question.

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It was funny what people in other countries were saying about our election process...at least it didn't result in civil war like in a lot of countries.

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Not when you are pres, your two brothers are governors of two important states, your cousins are senators of three others. It provides too much of a power and control base. Our government was specifically designed with checks and balances of power in mind. That all goes out the window when nepotism is involved to a large degree.

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I'm pretty sure the definition of nepotism is when someone in power APPOINTS someone in their family to another position of power. The people chose the Bushes to be in power. It'd be unfair to George W. Bush and his brothers if they COULDNT run for office because one of the others was in office.

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Well that's enough for now. Thanks for bringing this back on topic Dredd.

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I just want the anti-war nuts/pacifists to answer my arguments. All I keep hearing is "Bush wants oil".

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Your right Israel is in violation of resolutions 242 and 338. The land for peace agreements that are hindering real progress.

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Thanks for at least attempting to answer my arguments, but wait arguments is PLURAL, answering #2 doesn't mean that they are all wrong, not to mention you didn't ANSWER the argument, just pointed out another country that was violating UN agreements. Gee, that's nice, how does that prove we shouldn't attack Iraq for ALL of the reasons I listed? Your argument is equivilent to cops shouldn't arrest someone they see run a red light because they don't arrest EVERYONE who runs a red light. Tough luck for Iraq, but maybe after we teach them who is boss other nations will stop violating them too.

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They are also in violation of 446, 452, and 465 that require Israel to rescind its annexation of greater Jerusalem.

Or do you mean the fact that daily Israel is violating Fourth Geneva Convention by using illegal deportation, demolition of homes, collective punishments and taking of private property....

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Nations have a right to self-defense, as do the people in them. If Mexicans started crossing the border and blowing up buildings in our southern states with suicide bombings, and the government did nothing to stop it, i'm pretty sure it'd be justified to invade Mexico until the attacks are stopped and the government cooperates. Your assuming that the occupation is bad because people are dying. You fail to realize that ending the occupation won't change that.

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Or you were talking about Saddam? Oh I wonder where he ever got the notion it was ok to violate UN resolutions and hurt people inside his borders...

On day the hypocrisy will have to end

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1. All my points don't apply to Israel.

2. Kuwait wasn't inside his borders.

3. The Kurds weren't carrying out suicide bombings.

4. You can't justify evil actions "because other people get away with it".

5. The resolutions Saddam is violating constitute a threat to regional security and United States security, and there is no debate over the morality of Saddam. That ranks higher in priority than the ambiguous/hotly contested issue of whether or not Israel is justified in their actions.

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You tell me.

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I did, later in the post, I explained what makes human life valuable.

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Hee hee....US support is low and falling....what planet are you on?

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Look at a map. East of Iran is Afghanistan. West is Iraq. North is an ex-USSR dictatorship that doesn't care what we do as long as it makes us happy with them, and I think that they share a very small border with another country to the south. If I was in the Iranian government I would be extremely worried about doing anything supporting terrorism after we attack Iraq, since at that point we'd be able to invade Iran from almost any direction and remove yet another oppressive regime from power. Well, maybe that isn't what Bush is planning, but it seems interesting when you look at a map...

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They need to be thinking about the economy..then again why should theythe people losing their jobs and retirements arent the super rich..as I was.onward Christian soldier! Lets go kick some EnronerIraqi bad guy butt.they really cant hit back and damned if doesnt look like were getting something doneand were doing it for the little Iraqi childrenawwww..anyone smell that?

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Ok, what exactly should they do about the economy? Why is it that there isn't an economic plan? Don't you think that if there was a way/easy plan to help the economy, the government would do it AND attack Iraq? That way they appease the people who want a war on Iraq and the people criticizing the administration for ignoring domestic issues. Oh look, maybe it's because THE GOVERNMENT CANT MAGICALLY FIX THE ECONOMY, OR EDUCATION, or ANY OTHER POINTLESS LIBERAL PROGRAM WE'VE BEEN POURING GOVERNMENT MONEY INTO FOR YEARS.

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Lothar has a point and I for one would appreciate it if some of the people who support this police action would admit that that the safety of American citizens isn't the sole or even primary reason the Bush Administration insists upon forcing it.

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So what is his intent? Evidence, please.

Even then, regardless of intent, refer to the arguements i've posted about 6 times on various forums that are IGNORED. Attacking Iraq is good, regardless.

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Still I am floored by the deafening silence when we ask where is the domestic policy? What are we doing to stimulate the economy? what are we doing to improve schools and educate our children. Where is the assurance that those of us who have worked and paid taxes for YEARS will ever see a dime of Social Security benefits? Working Americans who invest in our and our country's future are rooked by slick snake oil salesmen who levrage our childrens future by raiding the companies they have driven in the ground. Nobody's pissed about this?

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1. Education is a state responsibility, people just like thinking it's about the fed.

2. There's no cure all to all of these problems you keep listing, and there's no reason to think that attacking Iraq stops the government from solving them.

3. There may just be no solution that the fed can do, and if there is, you should post it here and then send it to congress.

4. They aren't going to let social security die, they'll probably just put it off awhile.

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No one will deny that Hussien is a world class a**hole who truly deserves a sea based Harpoon at his front door with the morning paper , but our number one priority? Please. If he was half the threat we build him up to be the Israeli's would have a plan on the table and planes in the air.

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Israel couldn't defeat the entire Middle East which would ALL attack them if they decided to attack Iraq. The only reason they've won in the past is we've helped em out...a lot.

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Our president lacks the patience and subtlety

to be a diplomat , the empathy and vision to be a domestic leader , and the perspective to see that this country is in a bad way and he is doing very little to right the ship. He can't raise a single issue that yields him any political leverage. Certainly not because the Democrats are holding the cards , their inability to forge coherent leadership or a message that people with common goals could get behind is painfully obvious even to me. But because it looks too hard to him. Beating the crap out of a country we could defeat with our reservist is much easier and makes him look the hero. Does anyone think he was anything but a single term president before 9-11? You better wake up and smell what the Bush is cooking

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What's he supposed to do? Talk about how he's going to fix the economy and then not be able to? For some reason we all assume that every problem we ever face it's the federal government's responsibility to fix. Yes, the federal government needs to establish trade with other nations, protect us from other powers, ensure the rights guarnteed under the constituiton to all American citizens, but that's IT. They aren't required, nor have the means, of solving every problem that the country faces domestically. Domestic problems should usually be handled by state governments that know what is needed, which is why we have federalism. If the national government has something it can do to solve all of our woes, please tell me what it is and how it would work, because all i'm hearing is "The government needs to fix it" although there are no reasons why the government would be able to.

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Really, I've been thinking that the best to improve education is to rent firearms, body armor and drug paraphenalia in high schools. It gives children access to the fundamental school supplies they need in the high schools of the 21st century while providing a nice source of revenue.

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The best way to improve education is to force parents to spend time with their kids, give teachers the ability to enforce morality on kids, allow kids who refuse to learn/work in schools to be sent to prisons where they will learn in isolation, and for parents to strip all privacy rights from their kids and have them under constant surveillence.

[Guest]

OK, I am going to jump in here on this one, Dredd, as usual you state the arguments very well and your reasoning is excellent. BUT!!!

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Really, I've been thinking that the best to improve education is to rent firearms, body armor and drug paraphenalia in high schools. It gives children access to the fundamental school supplies they need in the high schools of the 21st century while providing a nice source of revenue.

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The best way to improve education is to force parents to spend time with their kids, give teachers the ability to enforce morality on kids, allow kids who refuse to learn/work in schools to be sent to prisons where they will learn in isolation, and for parents to strip all privacy rights from their kids and have them under constant surveillence.

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The BEST way to improve education is to privatize it, PERIOD. The government SHOULD NOT be involved in the education of our children.

ALL public schools should be privatized, and the property taxes that are collected for education should be put into an account and EVERY parent should be given a voucher for a given amount every year. Say $5000 just for grins, and that money is specifically for the parent to pay for their childrens education that year, to be used at ANY institution of learning of their choice, INCLUDING homeschooling, private religious school, whatever school THE PARENT chooses.

THAT is how you fix the education system in this country.

[Raven]

Yea, I had forgotten about vouchers myself, but I imagine they would work swimmingly.

[AWells]

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ALL public schools should be privatized, and the property taxes that are collected for education should be put into an account and EVERY parent should be given a voucher for a given amount every year. Say $5000 just for grins, and that money is specifically for the parent to pay for their childrens education that year, to be used at ANY institution of learning of their choice, INCLUDING homeschooling, private religious school, whatever school THE PARENT chooses.

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My only problem is the idea that non-parents have to pay for the children of parents. Why should I pay for the baby factory on welfare that wants to send her 13 kids to school? Privatize education and make the parents pay the costs, don't hand them vouchers at the expense of taxpayers.

[ 10-14-2002, 09:21 PM: Message edited by: Litvyak ]

[Charles Lindsey]

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Nah, what he is doing is pointing out that most leftist arguments are based in taking what the media and all legitimate authorities say, and turning around and saying "It's all wrong, it's all a conspiracy, and we should do the exact opposite". Evidence and facts supporting the opposing view aren't needed, the leftists just know that the traditional/acceptable/logical/rational view is wrong, and the opposite is right.

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Then why didn't he say so? And you actualy saw that from that article? Sheesh I'm getting old. You rewrote his article in two sentences with the proper introduction, reasons, and summary. Must be that new math.

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The secondary procedure (congress deciding who wins), didn't seem much better. It would have just been putting a select group of politicians in charge of an election, which probably would have bugged even MORE people. I don't think the government can ever win.

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But at least they can be smart enough to do it right and cite due process. Was it a democratic congress at that time or a republican congress? No doubt in my mind there was tomfoolery on both sides.

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I'm pretty sure the definition of nepotism is when someone in power APPOINTS someone in their family to another position of power.

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Nepotism is simply favoritism due to kinship. It is mostly considered to be applicable to appointments but once the appointment is made there is room for more favoritism. Hence my argument against it with regards to senators, governors, and the like.

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It'd be unfair to George W. Bush and his brothers if they COULDNT run for office because one of the others was in office.

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Tough. Life ain't fair.

Glad we agree on the rest though.

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I just want the anti-war nuts/pacifists to answer my arguments. All I keep hearing is "Bush wants oil".

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You already said it. He wants to avenge his father. But there is no doubt in my mind big oil is pushing for every advantage they can get from the situation. Does it make this war bout oil? No. But it ain't gonna be pretty.

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It's directed at anyone who can answer it, and so far, no one has.

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Because your points are bogus.

Saddam is:

1. Oppressing his people/Violating their rights/Has no problem killing them

Cuba, China, lots of other nations. Why Iraq? Why now?

2. Violating UN Resolutions/Agreements

So? It's the UN's problem. Of which we are part.

3. Storing/devloping/has chemical and biological weapons

So?

4. Anti-America

Lamest one. So is Iran and most of Islam though the some of the governments are officially our allies.

5. A totalitarian dictator

Castro

6. Irrational in terms of international actions

Dunno this one pretty lame too.

7. *WANTING* Nuclear Weapons

So?

8. Supporting Radical Islamic causes (Israeli suicide bombers)

This is tougher. I don't think his rewards started as incentives but now that everyone knows about them yes it is now an incentive.

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The BEST way to improve education is to privatize it, PERIOD.

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Dumbest thing I have ever heard.

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the property taxes that are collected for education should be put into an account

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The government is not going to let go one one red cent it has already wrangled out of the populace.

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to be used at ANY institution of learning of their choice

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Who sets the standards?

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Say $5000 just for grins

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Wouldn't help much I don't think.

I think the current system is ok. A let's call it a partial voucher if you wanna send your one to private school. Since you (your brat) are not in public school and not a drain in the system this partial voucher helps defray the cost of the school of your choice.

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My only problem is the idea that non-parents have to pay for the children of parents.

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That I can agree with. But don't privatize the whole system.