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ballistic fingerprinting


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I don't see what's discriminatory about not expecting somebody who lives outside the United States to understand the U.S. Constitution and Legal system. I certainly imagine that Canadians wouldn't expect me to understand how the Canadian government works as well as they do. He didn't say, "Canadians are morons", but was referring to the fact that in U.S. driving a car and owning a gun are vastly different under the law, with the latter being a constitutionally protected right. He said he didn't expect Ep5 to understand this because he's Canadian... just like he wouldn't expect him to understand if he was German, Brazilian, Finnish, Russian, French, Argentinian, Cuban, Japanese, or from any other country. I don't see where Jaguar was out of line, especially since Ep5's post that he was responding to had demonstrated a lack of understanding of the difference between owning a gun and driving a car under U.S. law.

[ 11-06-2002, 09:18 AM: Message edited by: Litvyak ]

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First I just want to point out that as I understand it, you can own a car and drive it without a license of any sort provided you do it on your own property.

Now before I touch the topic of gun control, ballistic fingerprinting while interesting isn't going to help with anything at all in my opinion. Why? First, it is easy to change the fingerprint of a gun as other have stated earlier. Second, the only guns that'll get fingerprinted are legally manufactured, and legally owned. So all you have is a list of legal gun owners, their names, the type of weapon, and the fingerprint for that weapon. Which is all well and good if the legal owner goes and committs a crime, but the fact that they registered means they're either a really *really* stupid criminal, or they're a law abiding citizen.

Next I'm going to state a hypothetical situation where ballistic fingerprinting could be detrimental, so remember this is hypothetical. Lets say a gun owner's gun is stolen(and he has registered it), and used in crime. The owner is innocent of the crime committed, yet he'll get dragged into court and tied up in the legal system because it was his gun used(although not necessarily for a long time). The criminal being decently intelligent decides to melt down the original barrel and pin or otherwise dispose of it and purchases a replacement. So assuming there was no other evidence, the criminal goes free and the citizen is detained and entangled in the legal system wasting everyone's money and time. However this doesn't mean that a good situation can't come from the use of ballistic fingerprinting, just that it won't necessarily.

The only way I can see ballistic fingerprinting having a possibility of working is if manufacturers were forced to register *every* barrel produced(and pin I suppose), and even then you aren't going to get all the manufacturers, because there are lot of smaller outfits making custom barrels etc.

Now onto gun control, what Jaguar is trying to make clear is that all it will provide is a list of legal gun owners, thats it. It won't help stop crime because if need be you can manufacture your own weapons from scratch or bring them into the nation illegally. That and there already exist a lot of unregistered guns that you can get your hands on. Criminals will have guns regardless of control, and if they don't then they'll have something else. Columbine wouldn't have been prevented by gun control, actually, it probably would have been quite a bit worse if a strong form of gun control was in effect. Instead of using guns on their fellow students Harris and Klebold probably would have used home made explosives and killed a lot more people.

The largest problem with gun control as I see it, is the slippery slope effect. You might say "you'll just be registered, you can still use your gun". Wait 20 years, you won't be able to use your gun anymore. With any regulation you *cannot* think merely of the short term effects, because the more rights you restrict now the quicker they can restrict more in the future. It has always been that way, people in control want more control, and people are willing to give it to them in exchange for a false sense of security because that is part of the nature of humanity. No one wants to fear for themselves and they especially don't want to fear for their offspring. Personally, it is not gun control thats worrying, it is what action the government will take next.

Anyway, so ends my rant, I'm sure I have some inaccuricies which I will go back and fix later when I reread what I've posted. Oh and Ep5 you shouldn't take Jaguar's comments too seriously, its just his way of arguing(although personally I think you should retract that statement Jaguar it is a rather gross generalization). So moral of the story, no one's right, we just all have differing opinions. Which is the way it should be, things would be very boring without some good natured debates.

Edit: Cripes! I wrote it rather stream of thought and totally forgot about formatting, it should be more readable now, sorry about that.

Second Edit: Cleaned up some of the text, got rid of some redundant material. I'll probably go through it once more later.

[ 11-06-2002, 10:25 AM: Message edited by: Friez12 ]

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The ballistic fingerprinting would only accomplish letting the government know where all guns were located, who had them, and where to pick them up when confiscation begins.

If a criminal was going to commit a crime, I'm fairly certain he wouldn't use a "fingerprinted" gun, just as I'm certain he would more rather use gloves than leave a fingerprint at the crime scene.

If he knew he wanted to use his weapon in a criminal act, he would take the 15 min necessary and replace his barrel, swapping it back when needed.

It would not work, and the cost outweighs any conceivable benefit.

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quote:


Originally posted by Grayfox:

ep5 has every right to be pissed off... jesus youre a friggin moderator for christs sake!!!!!!!!!! what you said is discriminatory... VERY


Thats pure and utter RUBBISH

What's discriminatory about his statement? EP5 is Canadian. As such, he is NOT expected to know about US specific laws.

Heck, I'm American, grew up in the UK mostly (one parent is American, the other British) and I couldn't interprete the constitution if my life depended on it. I could'a sworn that Moses ripped Thou Shalt Not Kill from the US constitution. Go figure.

Heck, I can barely mumble the oath of allegiance without mixing it up with something from GALCOM.

Better yet, I don't even know if the constitutional right to bear arms means I can go out, buy a gun and run around downtown with it. Of course not. I'd like to explain that one to the cops.

Jaguar didn't call him names. He didn't call him stupid. He didn't call him a one-eyed illiterate space hoping Canadian masquerading as an Insurgent etc etc

NOTE: I usually don't get involved in these debates because I don't know enough about the subject, have no interest them etc etc. But Jaguar's post was sent to me using the report post feature of the board.

His post stands as it was originally written and I don't find ANYTHING wrong with it. People with thin skins should NOT engage in heated topics and debates.

ps: Friez, if you don't break that up into paragraphs, I swear I'm gonna delete it. Whats with you? How MANY times do you have to be told to make your posts READABLE?? What? Did you lose your way between pre-K and high school?

[ 11-06-2002, 09:55 AM: Message edited by: Supreme Cmdr ]

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According to studies by the BATF and the DOJ the vast majority of guns used in crimes are obtained through street sales and theft. Ballestic fingerprinting would be useless in any gun obtained in this manner.

Some 86% of crimes committed with firearms involve never firing a shot, simply using the weapon to threaten the victim. If no shot is fired there is no bullet or shell casing to try and match finger prints with and ballastic fingerprinting is useless.

Shot from shotguns cannot be ballistically finger printed. Assuming no shell casing are left behind (not hard to do... a double barrel shotgun gives a criminal two shots without ejecting any shells) then ballastic fingerprinting is completely useless in these crimes.

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You guys are a bit touchy aren't you?

EP5 is canadian, I do NOT expect him to know the US constitution. I did not expect him to get it because he is NOT a US citizen.

No put down intended.

Thank you SC for knowing EXACTLY what I was stating.

Please think before you jump on the abuse button.

Thank you

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Hello all.

I had pretty much decided to just remain here in lurker mode after partipating in many discussions along this vein and realizing that, in spite of logic, common sense, and statistical evidence, seemingly good, intelligent people still support this type of assault upon our constitutional liberties.

I remain as proud to be a member of this community today as I was the first day I joined. This forum has continued to attract the best and brightest people from all walks of life, all ages, and many different countries. We come together here and share ,not only our joy and pleasure in gaming, but also our views on politics, theology, morality, science and just about every other thing under the sun.

We come here because the vigilance and integrity of the SC, the moderators and the community as a whole, have made this a place where we can voice our opinions, thoughts and beliefs, secure in the knowledge that somebody out there will force us to refine, focus, and yes, maybe even append or disregard those viewpoints by exposing us to new information, different points of view or differing personal experience.

Here we are challenged to look at ourselves and our beliefs and decide whether they are based on fact, logic, and common sense and not just some legacy of unanalyzed social programming that we picked up along the way. Here we are encouraged to seperate the chaff from the wheat.

(Oh yeah, Almost forgot......We come here also because BCM is a KICKA$$ game)

I've abstained from many of these discussions because there are many here who offer the same viewpoints that I have and are more than willing to engage in the thrust, parry and riposte. So, as much as I hate to admit it.....my posts would probably be very redundant.

However, this morning I felt compelled to offer my .02.

There are several things in this thread that disturbed me this morning.

quote:

ep5 has every right to be pissed off... jesus youre a friggin moderator for christs sake!!!!!!!!!! what you said is discriminatory... VERY

this topic has gotten to the point where i never intended it to go... i meant it to be a discussion about one thing, and it got sickly perverted into an insult fest...

therefore i move this topic be closed.

Fox, I was really puzzled and surprised to see this post under your name.

Ep5, no matter how much knowledge he aquires about the U.S., It laws, and the U.S. Constitution, Is still only an observer.

Like the military historian who knows all the details of all the great battles of history down to the smallest minutiae, and can rattle off the specs to every weapon ever made. He might tell of comraderie and valour on the battlefield but unless he has been in the military, he can not tell you what it is to BE a soldier......No matter how many orders of battle he knows or how many military manuals he memorizes.....he is an observer.

Of course there is nothing wrong with that....it's just the way things are.

I think it is pretty apparent that Jaguar's statement was more along that line of thought than a put-down or slur about him being a Canadian.

Moving along.............

It is this post by Race that really disturbed me.

quote:

Are you living in the right country? You seem to take issue with the very existence of any system of government. Perhaps you would be better suited somewhere else.

I am somewhat disappointed and angered by not only the tone of this post but also the thought process behind it. and although it seems Jaguar didn't take offense to it, I'm afraid I have to.

To suggest that Jaguar should leave this country because he Believes wholeheartedly in our constitution and vocally denounces an attempt by our government to pervert or Illegaly change that document and the liberties guaranteed therein, is indeed an insult.... not only to him, but to me as well, because I agree with him wholeheartedly.

What, I think, Jaguar takes issue with is any system of Government in the UNITED STATES that is NOT completely based on the Constitution and that is constantly trying to assault the inalienable rights given us by that Document.

Our forefathers bled and died to afford us this freedom and it is our duty and resposibility to maintain the integrity of that sacrifice against ALL enemies DOMESTIC and foreign.

It is inconceivable to me that, In light of the corruption, Immorality, and Greed in our government today even with those rights still in place, that you could believe that were they removed,we wouldn't be crushed under foot.

History has shown us a very different picture.

Just my thoughts.

I have really enjoyed reading these debates people....keep up the good work.

And to a few of you I've never spoken with before.

LITVYAK:

I like your style.

DRAGON LADY:

You, my dear, are a rare Gem.

[ 11-06-2002, 04:16 PM: Message edited by: Stormshadow ]

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quote:


Originally posted by Stormshadow:

(Oh yeah, Almost forgot......We come here also because BCM is a KICKA$$ game)


ooooohh, nice save!

quote:


Originally posted by Stormshadow:

It is this post by Race that really disturbed me.

quote:

Are you living in the right country? You seem to take issue with the very existence of any system of government. Perhaps you would be better suited somewhere else.

I am somewhat disappointed and angered by not only the tone of this post but also the thought process behind it. and although it seems Jaguar didn't take offense to it, I'm afraid I have to.


You're right. I didn't notice that one before. And thats probably because, as I said, I don't get involved - nor do I read - these types of debates. I know when I'm outgunned.

Post deleted.

Race, govern yourself accordingly.

[ 11-06-2002, 03:14 PM: Message edited by: Supreme Cmdr ]

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Is it okay to suggest someone is cowardly or stupid or unpatriotic in these threads but not okay to question other things? I simply pointed out that Jag seems to be in a constant state of indignation that indicates to me he isn't happy here. I didn't ask him to leave or tell him he should but simply questioned whether or not the way this country exists now fits his beliefs and temperment. I refuse to believe that is somehow wrong. It is also interesting to note that the person who felt insulted sides politically with the point of view I disagree with(or at least thats how it appears to me)

In various threads I've read a number of things I've found offensive personally to me as a man of color but refrained making of issue of them. It is a practice I will continue as I refuse to marginalized by race,however I am having a hard time knowing where the line is drawn when it comes to what is offensive and what is not. Eps was offended by Jag's statement not based on the one statement alone but by a number of similar ones made in the past that I thought waere over the line , but we're all grown ups here and when we discuss hot button topics sh*t happens. In this case the person who was offended was in effect told he had no right to be. In my case the post was deleted.

I won't apologise for the statement cause I meant it however I will folow the SC's warning on any future statements. i only hope we all follow suit.

For future reference,I am offended personally when it is implied I am stupid for disagreeing with a dissenting point of view. Take the hint.

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Originally I closed this topic and was about to give Jaguar a serious lashing via e-mail. However, after reading this thread after Ep5's response to Jag's Canadian I changed my stance.

Knocking people's just 'cause they are from a different country is not good. But I have noticed, here on this forum and elsewhere in the real world, that people that think they know this country - and try and knock it for what ever reason - do so using their country of origin's perspective. Don't come a knocking the US system expecting not to recieve some knocks in return.

There are many things good and bad wrt the gun issue here in the States. I dislike any form of gun control - no matter how sublimmital it is. To Wit: the original topic of this thread. Maryland has this ballistics fingerprinting smack. Hasn't reduced any thing IMO.

Keep the debate reasonable and refrain from personnal attacks.

TTFN and check six

[ 11-06-2002, 05:25 PM: Message edited by: Gallion ]

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Race,

The fact that I hold some political views in common with Jaguar has nothing to do with my stance here today.

Jaguar has, As many of us here have, are or will be putting ourselves in harm's way out of love for this country and it's Ideals.

It saddens me that you don't recognize that Jaguar's dissatisfaction with certain trends in government stem from his deep love for this country and the principles it was founded on, and that his passion is fueled by his desire to see that his children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren are able to enjoy those same rights and freedoms.

That does not mean that I think that you or anyone else is unpatriotic because they don't agree with everything that I believe or that Jaguar believes.

I would've thought it improper for Jaguar to tell you to leave this country under the same circumstances.

The beauty of this country is that we can disagree with each other but still find common ground in the fact that we are all Americans and that we have the freedom to disagree and to debate these weighty topics.

As for the instances that you have found offensive as a man of color. I think that perhaps it would be worthwhile to explore those cases with the members of this community.A Heated debate may insue, but I see nothing wrong with that.an earnest discussion of this type of problem may foster a deeper understanding and tolerance for all participants. I see this as much preferable to keeping silent and and perhaps harboring resentment for such statements.

Because of the limitations of this medium of interaction, it is often easy to misinterpret the correct intentions of statements because we are unable to gauge level and tone of voice and body language. I don't know if this might be the case in the instances that you mentioned but it might be worth exploring.

I have reread my post several times and can't find the spot where I implied anyone was stupid.....In fact I tried to be very positive about the high quality of the debates on this forum and encouraged them to continue.....

I did state that some viewpoints were inconceivable to me....but that just means that I don't understand how certain conclusions were arrived at.......it doesn't speak at all about anyone's intelligence level.........I'm not real good with quantum mechanics either.

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Gallion,

Not that it matters but while he frequently pisses

me off Jag in no way IMO deserves a tongue lashing. We can take care of ourselves and if I ever was really offended our mods have provided us with a means to report the offending post. We just like to kick up a ruckus now and again. Who knows ..one day I'll find something he and I agree on. Please lay off the big guy.

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Stormshadow I was referring to several of Jag's many liberals are stupid rants not your post. I agree with your take on the state of this community. If I didn't I wouldn't participate.

I too have a deep love of this country and have served it in the USAF and would do so again if needed and they were desparate enough to take 42 y/o fat guys. I am troubled by the way some characterize our government and its action. That is where Jag and I differ but as I have said before,, I disagree with some stances but support the right for people to believe and support them.

THAT is America. Thank you for a wel written and thought provoking post. I'm sorry if you misunderstood me.

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I think it could work but it would take forever for non fingerprinted guns to work their way out of service. Like a generation or more. I don't think guns are as disposable as cars that need replaced all the time.

The point that there would always be some non fingerprinted guns out there is a valid one. Then the black market and foreign guns. And a good machinist could probably make one from scratch.

I got it all figured out. Fingerprint it at the factory and attach it to the serial number and the store it went to. That's it. The factory keeps those records.

Then the store keeps whatever records they keep. Then IF the police needed the info they could start the detective work.

No one is actually registered but it could be tracked.

Sounds good but don't know if it will work.

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quote:

Originally posted by Supreme Cmdr:

ps: Friez, if you don't break that up into paragraphs, I swear I'm gonna delete it. Whats with you? How MANY times do you have to be told to make your posts READABLE?? What? Did you lose your way between pre-K and high school?[/QB]

That seemed like a personal insult! Report post! Report post! Report post! *click* *click* *click* (imagines getting shoved out an airlock and stops)

quote:

His post stands as it was originally written and I don't find ANYTHING wrong with it. People with thin skins should NOT engage in heated topics and debates.

Agreed...goes with next quote.

And from Race:

quote:

In various threads I've read a number of things I've found offensive personally to me as a man of color but refrained making of issue of them. It is a practice I will continue as I refuse to marginalized by race,however I am having a hard time knowing where the line is drawn when it comes to what is offensive and what is not. Eps was offended by Jag's statement not based on the one statement alone but by a number of similar ones made in the past that I thought waere over the line , but we're all grown ups here and when we discuss hot button topics sh*t happens. In this case the person who was offended was in effect told he had no right to be. In my case the post was deleted.


I think that people on here are forced to a standard of defending their opinions and beliefs. If someone resorts to an attack that offends me, i'll be able to explain why the attack is unwarranted and probably turn it around into an insult to the person who originally said it. I think these forums should be as unrestricted as possible, with people being able to post what they want and having to deal with the consequences to the best of their ability. Censorship and "offensive things" being frowned upon should only happen if it becomes an organized strcture of insulting/oppression (aka, everyone on here becomes pro-KKK).

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quote:


Originally posted by Dredd:

quote:

Originally posted by Supreme Cmdr:

ps: Friez, if you don't break that up into paragraphs, I swear I'm gonna delete it. Whats with you? How MANY times do you have to be told to make your posts READABLE?? What? Did you lose your way between pre-K and high school?


That seemed like a personal insult! Report post! Report post! Report post! *click* *click* *click* (imagines getting shoved out an airlock and stops)


LOL!!! I'm sure he knows that I was kidding and trying to make a point.

[ 11-07-2002, 12:32 PM: Message edited by: Supreme Cmdr ]

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O.K., I haven't been able to read all the posts here, so disregard if this has already been pointed out: Finger printing ballistics is impossible.

First, the methods used to match fired rounds to weapons is at best spotty. No two rounds are ever the same. The only thing the forensic guys can do is assign a percentage of probability that the bullet/s came from the same weapon.

Why? Every time you fire a weapon you change some characteristic about that weapon. The barrel changes, the slide changes, the striking pin changes, and the case ejection mechanism changes.

Granted, the changes aren't extreme, but still, the first round fired from a weapon will not have the same markings as the 500th.

Also, there's no way to keep resourceful individuals from manually changing any or all characteristics of a weapon once its out of the dealer's control.

And finally, if you ask any police officer or forensic spec.(in my case I questioned an FBI agent and an OSBI agent about the testing methods) they will tell you that ballistics are a shot in the dark at best.

The only reason fingerprinting is being hyped is due to the media's insane need to report SOMETHING during the recent sniper rampage. They didn't have any real news on the subject so they grasped at the sexiest straw in the bucket and pushed it like they were the end all be all of experts.

Folks, if you believe 1/10 of what the media feeds you, you really need to turn off the television and spend more time in the library doing real research. Fingerprinting can't work. Period. However, the media can make you think it will work... and the media want you to think it will work... the media wants you to feel safe... the media wants you to think their your friend watching out for the common man... the media wants to spoon feed you so they can sway your opinion as they deem necessary.

If anyone chooses to disagree with me, fine. However, you must understand this single point concerning gun control: it only affects law-abiding citizens.

So, knowing that any measure made law will only affect those that abide by law, why do you think it would become law? Because politicians/government want power taken from the people and placed solely in their hands. And they're right. None of us normal citizens have enough sense to practice our freedom. We deserve to have it taken away.

I love being a sheep. Don't you?!

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This is an article written by someone who knows.

This has NOT been put on a website yet to put a link to, so I am just putting his name on it and we'll take it from there.

quote:

The Heart, the Mind, and "Ballistic Fingerprints"

Joe Brower

October 26, 2002

With the advent of the "Beltway Sniper" shootings, there has been the predictable hue and cry for more gun control, mostly in the form of a so-called "ballistic fingerprinting database" for all firearms. Simply put, the idea is that bullets recovered from shootings could be matched to images stored in a computer, the owner of the weapon could then be determined, and an arrest could be made. Sounds good, doesn't it?

Unfortunately, in the real world, it doesn't work. The federal government has been working on such a system for a decade. Since 1999, its advocates like to proclaim, it's made over 12,000 matches. But it has yielded no convictions. Why? Because the "fingerprints" are nowhere near distinct enough to provide matches that are truly viable as evidence. Maryland has had a similar system in use for the last two years. Number of convictions: zero. California has reviewed the feasibility of this idea and deemed it "unworkable".

The term "fingerprint" is a deliberate misnomer. Real fingerprints cannot be changed. A firearm's working parts can all be altered in five minutes with tools commonly found in any garage. Don't think that criminals don't know this; they most certainly do. Even normal use will change the so-called "fingerprint" in time. So why is such an ineffective measure even considered?

"Ballistic fingerprinting" is just a facade for what is truly desired by its advocates: a national gun registry. A list of every gun owner in the United States, where they live, and what firearms they possess. Hardly a concept befitting a nation that professes to be "the land of the free". Who would even want such a thing? Need you ask?

The voices that have immediately sought to capitalize on this tragedy are the same ones who attempt to use every abuse of firearms to further their goal of restricting guns or banning them outright. Charles Schumer (D-NY) in the U.S. Senate, the appointed bureaucrats of the ATF, and groups like the Brady Campaign and the Violence Policy Center, among others.

Even so, is a national firearms registry a bad thing? Absolutely. Why? Because all registration schemes lead to eventual confiscation. This is readily verifiable. This inevitable progression is currently ongoing in Britain and Australia. In the twentieth century, it preceded much of the conflict in Europe and Asia. Those who state "it can't happen here" are whistling past the graveyard of history. It's simply not worth the risk.

Thankfully, the truth of this is obvious to many, and is the primary reason why "ballistic fingerprinting" proposals have gone nowhere. The whole scheme violates the 2nd, 4th, 5th and 10th Amendments to the Constitution, as well as the concept of prior restraint and the prohibition of ex-post-facto laws. We still live in a nation where people are considered innocent until proven guilty. If the police have probable cause to suspect our involvement in a crime, they have the right to fingerprint us, take a DNA sample or check the ballistic identification of our guns. If they don't have probable cause, they don't. It's that simple.

Of all the articles in the Bill of Rights, the Second Amendment is the one that specifically states "shall not be infringed", but is, ironically, the most infringed upon. Any honest man could simply look up the word "infringe" in the dictionary and go from there. Over 20,000 laws now hinder this fundamental human right -- the right to self-defense.

Human beings, for all our technology and civilization, are creatures that still feel more quickly and more strongly than we think. The heart betrays the mind; gun control is primarily an illogical response to fear. Impelled by the need to "do something", we are misled into actions that do more harm than good. The truth is that no law is better than a bad law, and knee-jerk concepts like "ballistic fingerprinting" are bad law.

Every time a crime is committed involving firearms, there invariably follows the usual demands that we surrender even more of our freedoms, all for a false promise of safety that politicians know can never be delivered. It is a siren call that rational, thinking people can not, will not heed.


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Here's a fun link that takes issue with BFP, terrorism and the American gun market, with a quick blurb on your big brother who is about to get a tad bigger....this link should not alarm any current gun owners as we all realize Congress is only seeing green on this issue...however, anyone who may be interested in these topics should take a look.

http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/gunland.html

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