Lotharr Posted November 23, 2002 Report Share Posted November 23, 2002 We need to get this topic out of Anti-war...while I believe McDonalds and McDonalds Douglass go hand in hand we should separate these issues. quote: Frankly, i'm sick and tired of this constant "coroporations bad" rhetoric. Boo hoo...and I'm sick of conservatives who base their information off of paid for science info channeled through entertainers using monopolized mass media that plays at distributing objective assessments. quote: The whole reason corporations have formed and SURVIVED is because *the people* which your so fond of saying will "rise up" SUPPORT THE CORPORATIONS. A few people didn't suddenly say "lets get a lot of money so we have influence over everything". What happened was there were simple people, with good ideas and good businesses, who had THE PEOPLE buy their products or services. Tell that to Rockefeller....are you kidding?!? It seems to me that since the rise of capitalism commercial interests have always tried to influence policy making....a long time ago the social order was not so complicated and easily manipulated. With the rise of "communism" we had a boggy man. Today we don't. We feared the totalitarian nature of the Soviet Union because it was so blatant in its repression....could it be possible that tyranny can manifest itself in new forms? Well I suppose it is okay as long as we keep oppression overseas and we believe that American and Christian values end at the boarder..... quote: They made a lot of money off of it. When they overstepped their bounds, anti-trust legislation happened. Monopolies of the were broken up and people STILL SUPPORTED these companies/corporations. The corporations have a lot of money, gained from THE PEOPLE supporting them. So they use that money to make more money, by using their wealth to buy air-time on TV and support networks so that THEIR CORPORATION/COMPANY is portrayed in a good, money-making light. And guess what? It's the PEOPLE who made it this way, and are keeping it this way through their monetary support, not some evil entity called "the corporation". Clearly you do not understand how much money is funneled into Washington. The cost of election are staggering and the inherent restrictions created are inhibiting....not to mention the huge amount of time thoroughly wasted by officials scrambling to raise more funds for the next election....but that's ok, while our elected officials are busy trying to get reelected other sources of governance will fill the void. It would seem that since the founding of the country it has never been about "the people", i.e. all white men were created equal etc. In fact it would seem that the incessant "whining" of the people only get in the way of "progress" (tips beer dispensing hat to DL). Do you find it at all strange that during the turn of the century in order to outlaw child slavery activists had to quote animal cruelty laws....against...*gasp* corporate profiteering?!?! So really the answer is by export the jobs to create misery (or opportunity depending on who's talking) and leave Americans without work and looking for a handout? quote: 1. How, EXACTLY (how it should be/how it is now), is the media being manipulated from the truth in order to support a war? To question the motives of the administration would lead to embarrassing moments of an administration run by people who come from the oil industry and have questionable motives in general. Lets look at the big picture. Journalists in corporate media ultimately work for CEOs who have vested interests in issues, which if examined, would draw attention to certain disturbing realities of globalization in current forms. Main stream journalists do not really do any investigative reporting. They have a boss and that boss understands what is acceptable and what is not.that is how they got the job. Most disturbing is that research often used is being conducted by personnel in organizations funded by parent institutions that have a vested interest in some product. From pharmaceuticals to the ozone, big money players understand they are under attack and are fighting back the way they have been trainedsand in the eyes or whatever works. However, rather than take appropriate action or reproach themselves they pay for elaborate deceptions that distort reality, displaying the true nature of their game. So the journalist (supervisors mostly) are supposed to sort out the nonsense.but they cant.even if they wanted to the slick segments and stylized press releases are tailored to fit perfectly within broad cast formats..these programs are generated on a level that make it like swimming through a sea of sh*t.its called noise and entire companies are dedicated to making it. quote: 1b. How you think it SHOULD be portrayed is any LESS BIASED than the "corporation biased news"? what? quote: 2. Why does a war on Iraq UNIQUELY benefit CORPORATIONS? (explain why a war on IRAQ as opposed to one on Iran or North Korea BENEFITS corporations...there are plenty of "GOOD" reasons a war on Iraq is best) It benefits in two major ways off the top. One: There are vast oil deposits that equal profit by selling to other countries (or not selling thus insuring control over any would be dissenters of future US actions). Two: Reinforcing the idea to the world that America (when not making deals with) will stomp any dictator that threatens us militarily or economically. So if you screw with GE you deal with the Marines. quote: 3. How EXACTLY do you propose the system should be changed so that there is no "evil manipulation"? Corporate interests have to be systemically removed from media, politics, and science. A good step towards funding these ideas would be to end the 30 billion spent annually on corporate socialism and stop cutting these companies tax breaks that dont serve anyone but those who already have a ton of money. Expanding participation by differing opinions that have been traditionally shut out by one dollar one vote ideologies never hurt anyone accept those in power. If those currently elected today had to serve the people we might actually get results rather than rhetorical BS that leaves policy makes gridlocked until the only answer is to privatize everything. The only problem with that is whats left to govern? Some would say themselves and that is a great idea.but those notions are fantasy in the reality of institutions that have no master or ambition save the bottom line and wield real power over peoples lives. quote: Yelling that your right won't change minds.... Ultimately we have to realize that people are not disposable and liberty is not for sale. But drive on with you post hoc equations of power and legitimacy.it is a familiar notion that defines mainstream American thought. Deny the problem all you want.but our democracy (republic) is declining. I would rather ask the tough questions to get the real answers. [ 11-23-2002, 12:47 AM: Message edited by: Lotharr ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted November 23, 2002 Report Share Posted November 23, 2002 quote: It seems to me that since the rise of capitalism commercial interests have always tried to influence policy making.... And this is a surprise because why? Commercial interests have a very legitimate reason to be attempting to influence policy making. quote: Well I suppose it is okay as long as we keep oppression overseas and we believe that American and Christian values end at the boarder..... Well darling, we're certainly not responsible for dealing with foreign problems unless it's in our best interest to do so. quote: It would seem that since the founding of the country it has never been about "the people", i.e. all white men were created equal etc. In fact it would seem that the incessant "whining" of the people only get in the way of "progress" (tips beer dispensing hat to DL). Quite frankly darling, the people are rather stupid, complacent, and all in all bovine in the extreme, how can you honestly expect them to be able to have more then a minimal hand in government. quote: Do you find it at all strange that during the turn of the century in order to outlaw child slavery activists had to quote animal cruelty laws....against...*gasp* corporate profiteering?!?! Well, what can I say; children arent really people anyway so it's rather fitting. quote: So really the answer is by export the jobs to create misery (or opportunity depending on who's talking) and leave Americans without work and looking for a handout? I would suggest removing some regulations and killing the minimum wage, then we wouldn't export half so many jobs, but until this is done exporting jobs is the logical course of action. quote: One: There are vast oil deposits that equal profit by selling to other countries (or not selling thus insuring control over any would be dissenters of future US actions). Which is very good, both for our economy and for our influence abroad, what exactly is the problem here? quote: Two: Reinforcing the idea to the world that America (when not making deals with) will stomp any dictator that threatens us militarily or economically. So if you screw with GE you deal with the Marines. This is perfectly fine. If a dictator decides to threaten us militarily or economically, and if there is no reason not to, then stomping them is perfectly acceptable. As for the marines, well, they are a perfectly acceptable way to protect our economic interests and should be used as such. quote: Ultimately we have to realize that people are not disposable and liberty is not for sale. Ultimately, darling, people are completely disposable and liberty is always for sale. quote: Deny the problem all you want.but our democracy (republic) is declining. I would rather ask the tough questions to get the real answers. In a way were declining, such as with these socialist programs that eat at our economy, but in other ways were are still very strong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest $iLk Posted November 23, 2002 Report Share Posted November 23, 2002 quote:and stop cutting these companies tax breaks that donÔÇÖt serve anyone but those who already have a ton of money. Along with the rest of the gibberish, this part irks me the most. Those who have that money EARNED that money. The tone of your rhetoric is simply greed born of envy. You envy those who have more money than you, therefore you seek to 'redistribute' their income. Who are you to say how much is too much? And who are you to say that since someone earned a good amount, that they do not have the right to keep what they earn? Your socialist diatribe is tiresome and would be worrisome if liberals could take off their masks and come right out as the unabashed socialists that they are in private. But you couldn't do that because once you step out of the shadows you lose support of the masses. Because they are afraid of the 'boogeyman'? Or is it because they realize that everything you propose is simply state sponsored thievery? Do I have the right to say, "Hmmm, Lothar makes enough money to support his family, but this other poor soul doesn't. I'm going to ask Lothar to give me all his extra money so that I can give it to this other person. If he doesn't give me the money I am going to pull a gun and force him to give it to me." And why is it that if an individual were to do this he would be labeled a criminal, yet the federal government does it every day? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommanderJohnson Posted November 23, 2002 Report Share Posted November 23, 2002 Thank you $ilk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lotharr Posted November 24, 2002 Author Report Share Posted November 24, 2002 quote: Those who have that money EARNED that money. The tone of your rhetoric is simply greed born of envy. You envy those who have more money than you, therefore you seek to 'redistribute' their income. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I have no desire to make money. I just want to live modestly and fight injustice as America's true ideals demand. quote: Who are you to say how much is too much? And who are you to say that since someone earned a good amount, that they do not have the right to keep what they earn? I am part of we the people and when enough of us get together we have the absolute right to determine anything we want. I don't call buying your way into a prestigious university then inheriting a fortune earning anything. It wouldn't be a big deal if those people could act responsibly. But that is not the core issue of my post. I do believe that meritocracy and free enterprise can be effective.just not in current forms. Calling me a socialist because I want to reform a busted system is your right. However to sit back and say the magic bullet is to downsize government is not dealing with reality. I think it demonstrates that youre not aware of the systemic assaults on sovereignty and liberty or youre just buying into the business media propaganda that corporate governance is preferable to governance by the people. quote: Or is it because they realize that everything you propose is simply state sponsored thievery? That is ridiculous....a corporate owned state already houses more thieves then my proposals to get the money out of politics, media, science would create. quote: And why is it that if an individual were to do this he would be labeled a criminal, yet the federal government does it every day? And you think AOL Time Warner would do so much better? Why don't you ask why the gun is to your head to support failing businesses run by irresponsible executives who know they are going to be taken care of...executives who believe in irrational dumbsizing and cheerleading the speculation band wagon....who have absolutely no concern for their workers or their country? [ 11-24-2002, 01:09 PM: Message edited by: Lotharr ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted November 24, 2002 Report Share Posted November 24, 2002 quote: Nothing could be farther from the truth. I have no desire to make money. I just want to live modestly and fight injustice as America's true ideals demand. Ladies and gentlemen, behold: the modest (poor) avenger (pillager). He will fight injustice (except injustice done by the masses onto the rich), he will seek the truth (though research by left wing intellectuals), and he will defend the economic rights of the little man (especially as he needs economic support as much as anyone else). Evil corporate tyrannies (and legitimate corporate interests) beware; your end is at hand... ...honest... ...any time now, you're all doomed... ...well ok, maybe later... quote: I am part of we the people and when enough of us get together we have the absolute right to determine anything we want. Yep, when enough bovine idiots (and I'm referring to the masses in general, not specifically you Lotharr, you have your own problems, but bovine stupidity isn't one of them) get behind an idea they can do a lot, especially in an unfortunately democratic country, but that doesn't make them right, and it certainly doesn't make that what's best. After all, don't poor people want more money? It should be a simple matter to give them more money, and there are enough of them to get what they want... at the expense of our future as an economic power. And it's possible to assuage the bleeding hearts as well, but the price is the same. quote: But that is not the core issue of my post. I do believe that meritocracy and free enterprise can be effective.just not in current forms. Yep, you prefer free enterprise to be a euphemism for heavily regulated and restricted enterprise. After all, we can hardly trust these irresponsible and draconian corporate tyrants to do anything except trod on the masses and destroy the environment. quote: Calling me a socialist because I want to reform a busted system is your right. However to sit back and say the magic bullet is to downsize government is not dealing with reality. It's hardly fair to call it a magic bullet darling; rather it is an important measure that must be taken. I'm no economist to explain this or that strategy, but I do know enough to know that deregulation will go a long way towards bolstering out economy. Scrapping useless government programs would allow us to reduce taxes (for everyone, not just for the poor, which is easy as they don't pay much in the way of taxes anyway), which would be good for the economy, and thus good for everyone. Making public schooling past grade school optional would vastly improve the environment of the classrooms while reducing the cost of public schooling in general (especially if a voucher program was used to allow students to go to private schools, which would involve competition and all of that). quote: I think it demonstrates that youre not aware of the systemic assaults on sovereignty and liberty or youre just buying into the business media propaganda that corporate governance is preferable to governance by the people. Well darling, someone here is buying into propaganda, but I'm not sure you got it right on whom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lotharr Posted November 24, 2002 Author Report Share Posted November 24, 2002 Dragon Lady I love how you can side step the real issues of a discussion and settle for rather trite renditions of the "wolf in do-gooder clothing"... quote: but that doesn't make them right, and it certainly doesn't make that what's best. After all, don't poor people want more money? It should be a simple matter to give them more money, and there are enough of them to get what they want... at the expense of our future as an economic power. And it's possible to assuage the bleeding hearts as well, but the price is the same. Ahhh yes those savages who fought back during the gilded age and formed the new deal and other social programs to protect the people from rampant exploitation and human rights abuse.....the fools. A lot of poor people just want a decent place to live, food, and job security...imagine that. Ultimately that is the big fear isn't it? That by limiting the power of corporations to operate unfettered of social responsibly and accountability, we some how lose the business edge and everything falls apart....what a load of crap... If the only way to insure success is by having disposable personal and destroying people's right to health care and stable jobs then we desperately need to find a new way of doing business. quote: I'm no economist to explain this or that strategy, but I do know enough to know that deregulation will go a long way towards bolstering out economy Our economy has been expanding since the founding of this nation. Even after the new deal. Short term answers to problems like dumbsizing and using disposable personnel in the form of an ever growing legion of temp workers does not ultimately serve the economy. What it really does is destroy the lively hood of millions of workers and make more transparent the evaporating veil of the American dream.... quote: which would be good for the economy, and thus good for everyone.Heh hehtell that to the thousands of workers who lost everything when Enron and company went under.oh wait the got a check for approx 13,000...while the 140 execs at Enron got 5,300,000...average.... Yes that is why the wealth gap is continuing to expand while we debate. I am not subject to the fear mongers who insist that regulation and social responsibility will destroy the economy....that is a line of trash put out by suits disconnected from reality. quote: Well darling, someone here is buying into propaganda, but I'm not sure you got it right on whom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted November 25, 2002 Report Share Posted November 25, 2002 quote: Dragon Lady I love how you can side step the real issues of a discussion and settle for rather trite renditions of the "wolf in do-gooder clothing"... Yea, I admit, it's pretty bad, I mean if I was really interested in having a real discussion with you I would accept the view of companies as being evil and tyrannical organizations ruled by delusional managers who are totally bereft of there senses and lacking any vestige of responsibility or morality. quote: Ahhh yes those savages who fought back during the gilded age and formed the new deal and other social programs to protect the people from rampant exploitation and human rights abuse.....the fools. First of all, from what I recall there wasn't anything terribly wrong with the gilded age. Furthermore, from what I recall of the new deal (new deals really, there were a few of them) they didn't do a lot of good, either for the economy or for preventing explotation. Rather, they were blatant socialist reforms that were both a vote buying system and a major increase in power for the federal government. As for human rights abuses, I'm advocating minimal regulation, not a complete absence of regulation. quote: A lot of poor people just want a decent place to live, food, and job security...imagine that. Yea, no ambition, imagine that. The average human bovine, just think, if food, housing, and job security are so great, wouldn't food and housing without having to work be better. A grand idea, let's vote for any crazy who suggests that kind of program. quote: Ultimately that is the big fear isn't it? That by limiting the power of corporations to operate unfettered of social responsibly and accountability, we some how lose the business edge and everything falls apart....what a load of crap... Well darling, excessive regulations do hinder business (after all, what would be the point of a regulation that didn't, after all if companies didn't want to do something there would be no point in preventing them from doing it) and there for does cut down on our edge. Now, I admit that some types of regulations are beneficial (such as antitrust laws), but most of them are just so much nonsense. quote: If the only way to insure success is by having disposable personal and destroying people's right to health care and stable jobs then we desperately need to find a new way of doing business. What rights to health care and stable jobs? No such rights exist, and to say otherwise is nonsense. Furthermore, those type of practices are not what insures success, rather having a valid business plan and saleable product are what allows a company to succeed or fail, expendable personnel (insofar as they are useful) may be able to increase profit margins, but that's it. quote: Our economy has been expanding since the founding of this nation. Even after the new deal. Yea, our economy has managed to survive all the attempts at sabotage so far, so it should be able to survive anything. A nice though, but if you keep making it harder and harder to turn a profit then eventually things will go downhill. quote: Short term answers to problems like dumbsizing and using disposable personnel in the form of an ever growing legion of temp workers does not ultimately serve the economy. What it really does is destroy the lively hood of millions of workers and make more transparent the evaporating veil of the American dream.... I don't know, that kind of thing has worked just fine for a very long time, what exactly has changed? Oh, and what exactly is the American dream anyway? quote: Heh hehtell that to the thousands of workers who lost everything when Enron and company went under.oh wait the got a check for approx 13,000...while the 140 execs at Enron got 5,300,000...average.... Was that good for the economy? Didn't think so, so it's not relevant to what I was saying. quote: I am not subject to the fear mongers who insist that regulation and social responsibility will destroy the economy....that is a line of trash put out by suits disconnected from reality. And how, exactly, does one become a manager (oh, I'm sorry, I don't think I'm going to use your question begging euphemism and call them suits) if they are completely disconnected from reality? I mean, it simply doesn't make sense, to be successful at business you have to be connected to reality in a very big way, and assuming that managers (err... suits) are so bereft of sense is simply ludicrous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fractux Posted November 25, 2002 Report Share Posted November 25, 2002 Hmmm, well I'll trow an article I read into this debate. It was posted on /. so many of you may have read it already. quote: Makarand writes "We all know that with electronics it is very difficult to be green. We leave our computer waste in the recyle bin lest dangerous chemicals like lead and mercury seep into our landfills. The more dedicated environmentalists make a trip to the local recyling center where they may be asked around to pay around $15-$30 to recycle their old PCs. But guess what -- these 'recyclers' merely ship 50-80% of this stuff overseas. The Mercury News has a report on this ugly side of the PC industry which merely exports the recycling problems instead of solving them." Article: http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/4591233.htm Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Epsilon 5 Posted November 25, 2002 Report Share Posted November 25, 2002 quote:Was that good for the economy? Didn't think so, so it's not relevant to what I was saying.You don't get it. 5.3M x 140 = 742M If you reduced it to 100,000 per exec, you end up with 14M, 728M less. Let's say you pay your employees a generous sum of 25 thousands a year. with that money you could hire 728M / 0.025M = 29120 employees. Or better. Consider all your worked are working for 15k average. Give them a 10% augmentation, i.e give them 1.5k more. You could give an augmentation to a little more than 485 thousand employees. Feel generous? Give them 5k augmentation. You can still satisfy more than 145 thousand employees! Ok, the execs don't have enough. Give them 250k a year. that's pretty generous. With a 5 k augmentation .. you could satisfy ... about 141 thousand employees! Too bad, those exec can't drive a rolls-royce, can't have a small jet, nor a 12 bedroom and a 6 bathroom, have 12 different homes for vacations all around the world, a personal cruiser... aww. They would only make the equivalent of 12 employees, instead of 350. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted November 25, 2002 Report Share Posted November 25, 2002 Interesting, but this article never really comes to grips with how much pollution exactly is generated. Rather, they take a very specific look at a small town in china and say, "gee, isn't this bad, look how these poor people are suffering, and this one river (of undisclosed size) is polluted... so sad..." This article does suggest, however, that there are only a few such towns around the world and they take care of millions of computers every year. This isn't a problem, but rather a low cost solution. A few polluted rivers, some villagers being paid pennies rather then not have a job at all (and remember that this is china, a little money can buy a lot more there then it can here, after all wasn't one of the villagers actually saving money) is hardly a great problem, but let's put it under a microscope and blow it up out of proportion. Consider, if you will, the shear quantity of pollution that other industries put out, both in the US and in other countries, and compare that to a few polluted rivers. Besides, building computers so that they can be easily recycled would substantially increase the cost of computers in general, and how many of you would prefer to have hardware prices jump up drastically? Oh, I imagine there would be a market for recyclable computer components to people who feel better buying that kind of stuff (especially if you provided "free" recycling, thus insuring a steady supply of revenue from selling them overseas, no doubt for more money as they would be easier to recycle), but making this kind of thing obligatory would be a needless blow the computer industry, and to our economy in general as computers are used so very widely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted November 25, 2002 Report Share Posted November 25, 2002 quote: You don't get it. No darling, you're the one who doesn't get it. That was the money the got when the company went under, not what they regularly paid workers and managers. If you can find some real statistics on that kind of thing from a reputable source, then we can have this debate, otherwise don't bother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest $iLk Posted November 25, 2002 Report Share Posted November 25, 2002 quote:Nothing could be farther from the truth. I have no desire to make money. I just want to live modestly and fight injustice as America's true ideals demand. You have no desire to make money I agree - you simply want to even the playing field by either: A. Creating a moneyless system where everyone is monetarily equal. B. Redistributing all income to create a classless society where everyone is monetarily equal. quote:I am part of we the people and when enough of us get together we have the absolute right to determine anything we want. 3 Wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. I assume you never heard of tyranny of the majority? Mob rule is exactly why we have checks and balances in government, so no you don't - and hopefully won't ever have the ability to determine through majority rule. quote:Calling me a socialist because I want to reform a busted system is your right. However to sit back and say the magic bullet is to downsize government is not dealing with reality. I think it demonstrates that youre not aware of the systemic assaults on sovereignty and liberty or youre just buying into the business media propaganda that corporate governance is preferable to governance by the people. Individual liberty and individual sovereignty are under siege by a tyrannical out of control Federal Beauracracy. I am aware of those assaults, and I support the effort to dismantle large unconstitutional agencies of the Federal Government. quote:That is ridiculous....a corporate owned state already houses more thieves then my proposals to get the money out of politics, media, science would create. A person's use of his money is his constitutional right. Ethics should be enforced, but upon the taker of the money, not the giver - i.e. the 'corrupt' politician/scientist/media mogul quote:Why don't you ask why the gun is to your head to support failing businesses run by irresponsible executives who know they are going to be taken care of...executives who believe in irrational dumbsizing and cheerleading the speculation band wagon....who have absolutely no concern for their workers or their country? A gun is to my head to support a bloated federal beuracracy of wasted unconstitutional programs. Read your latest copy of the Federal Budget and tell me that the money is being well spent. Money funneled to factories that produce nothing but jobs, studies to determine how to get the smell out of pig excrement, $1000's of dollars for supplies that cost maybe $100's if you shop competitively. quote:Ahhh yes those savages who fought back during the gilded age and formed the new deal and other social programs to protect the people from rampant exploitation and human rights abuse.....the fools. A lot of poor people just want a decent place to live, food, and job security...imagine that. Ultimately that is the big fear isn't it? That by limiting the power of corporations to operate unfettered of social responsibly and accountability, we some how lose the business edge and everything falls apart....what a load of crap... If the only way to insure success is by having disposable personal and destroying people's right to health care and stable jobs then we desperately need to find a new way of doing business. Health care is being bankrupted by trial lawyers and otherwise frivolous lawsuits that are allowed to continue because of majority rule by idiots on the jury. Look no further than the companies who produce these outrageously priced medicines - in the USA, $20 a pill for some medications... however in other nations which don't give 'punitive damages' consideration, maybe $1 or less per pill. Same company, so it's not like they enjoy a monopoly, they are just trying to cover their butts because of the gifts given to trial lawyers who seek punitive damage awards for a big fat payoff. Ambulance chasers are your problem, not corporations. quote:Our economy has been expanding since the founding of this nation. Even after the new deal. Short term answers to problems like dumbsizing and using disposable personnel in the form of an ever growing legion of temp workers does not ultimately serve the economy. What it really does is destroy the lively hood of millions of workers and make more transparent the evaporating veil of the American dream.... BTW can you name someone who was turned away from life-saving medical treatment last year? The year before? quote:Heh hehtell that to the thousands of workers who lost everything when Enron and company went under.oh wait the got a check for approx 13,000...while the 140 execs at Enron got 5,300,000...average.... Yes that is why the wealth gap is continuing to expand while we debate. I am not subject to the fear mongers who insist that regulation and social responsibility will destroy the economy....that is a line of trash put out by suits disconnected from reality. The rich get richer because they do what made them rich in the first place, invest. The poor get poorer because they do what they've always done, spend. Loose fiscal policy of individuals is not my concern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommanderJohnson Posted November 25, 2002 Report Share Posted November 25, 2002 Just responding to one point above: It doesn't matter how many poor or homeless people (people who don't have any ambition to work) get together and want handouts. It's still objective STEALING when the government takes money from those who have worked to earn it and give it to those who haven't. Being benevolent when stealing doesn't make it right. That'd justify my robbing anyone as long as i'm hungry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 25, 2002 Report Share Posted November 25, 2002 Anybody need a tinfoil beannie? I can make them for ya cheap!! I wonder if anyone will get this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Lindsey Posted November 26, 2002 Report Share Posted November 26, 2002 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lotharr Posted November 26, 2002 Author Report Share Posted November 26, 2002 quote: You have no desire to make money I agree - you simply want to even the playing field by either: A. Creating a moneyless system where everyone is monetarily equal. B. Redistributing all income to create a classless society where everyone is monetarily equal. What? quote: I assume you never heard of tyranny of the majority Currently only in one dollar one vote politics. quote: Individual liberty and individual sovereignty are under siege by a tyrannical out of control Federal Beauracracy. I am aware of those assaults, and I support the effort to dismantle large unconstitutional agencies of the Federal Government So then how do you fail to see that large business organizations pose the same threat? quote: A person's use of his money is his constitutional right. Ethics should be enforced, but upon the taker of the money, not the giver - i.e. the 'corrupt' politician/scientist/media mogul Right so banning election contributions of millions of dollars destroying the election process would be a good start. Forcing media agencies to give equal access to candidates is another good idea....the cost of doing business in a representative democracy.... quote: Money funneled to factories that produce nothing but jobs, studies to determine how to get the smell out of pig excrement, $1000's of dollars for supplies that cost maybe $100's if you shop competitively. So are you offended that you have to pay more for irresponsible companies then people? quote: Ambulance chasers are your problem, not corporations. Pharmaceutical companies are moving at an extremely high pace to vertically integrate these markets....I understand the problem of ambulance chasers but legal recourse must be given to citizens who suffer from irresponsible corporate governance. Perhaps these "idiot juries" are actually projecting hostility onto a crooked setup by stories of cost effectiveness vs people's lives and are sick of the people being written off for the bottom line. Perhaps they are given damn good evidence of negligence. I believe negligence is all too pervasive in a system that is seeking to infiltrate the medical profession by bribing doctors to indorse products, hiring ghost writers that promote products or get fired, and just all around try to turn health care into another highly profitable industry at external cost. quote: BTW can you name someone who was turned away from life-saving medical treatment last year? The year before? I'll look in to it. quote: The rich get richer because they do what made them rich in the first place, invest. The poor get poorer because they do what they've always done, spend. Loose fiscal policy of individuals is not my concern. Uhhh if they're poor what do they have to spend? And if their working poor how can they invest in success? And if they keep getting laid off, downsized, and outsourced how can they save money? quote: It doesn't matter how many poor or homeless people (people who don't have any ambition to work) get together and want handouts. It's still objective STEALING when the government takes money from those who have worked to earn it and give it to those who haven't. Being benevolent when stealing doesn't make it right. That'd justify my robbing anyone as long as i'm hungry. Corporate socialism is "robbing" you more than any the legions of evil welfare moms ever did. Believing opportunity is equal across the board is crap. If your born into poverty in this country your guilty of nothing but being unlucky. You can then look forward to a life of incarceration and distain by a society that would rather call you a thief then demand effective change. quote: Too bad, those exec can't drive a rolls-royce, can't have a small jet, nor a 12 bedroom and a 6 bathroom, have 12 different homes for vacations all around the world, a personal cruiser... aww. They would only make the equivalent of 12 employees, instead of 350. You got it. quote: Yea, our economy has managed to survive all the attempts at sabotage so far, so it should be able to survive anything. A nice though, but if you keep making it harder and harder to turn a profit then eventually things will go downhill. Sure whatever....if anything forcing corporations to take responsibility for their workers and acts of negligence have made current success possible. They cannot subvert the sovereignty of the people indefinitely. Eventually they will be brought back towards civic accountability one way or another. quote: First of all, from what I recall there wasn't anything terribly wrong with the gilded age I'm not suprised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted November 26, 2002 Report Share Posted November 26, 2002 quote: Currently only in one dollar one vote politics. Nonsense, tyranny of the majority occurs any time you have a majority that are willing to infringe upon the rights of a minority. It's happened to all sorts of different groups over the decades, and right now it's happening to the wealthy. The average bovine Joe doesn't know about the economy, but he do knows how to vote money into his pockets, and that, darling, is exactly what he's doing. quote: So then how do you fail to see that large business organizations pose the same threat? If they do indeed pose such a threat, and I'm not ready to concede that point, it can't be equal to the threat posed by our federal bureaucracy and all of its unconstitutional programs. quote: Right so banning election contributions of millions of dollars destroying the election process would be a good start. Destroying the election process, what a delightful idea. How about throwing out all of the unneeded bureaucracy instead. quote: Forcing media agencies to give equal access to candidates is another good idea....the cost of doing business in a representative democracy.... That's preposterous; part of the system requires that an individual have support both from the masses and from the wealthy to become president, doing something ridiculous like this would increase the democracy of our elections. Not a good idea. quote: Uhhh if they're poor what do they have to spend? And if their working poor how can they invest in success? And if they keep getting laid off, downsized, and outsourced how can they save money? Well darling, they spend what little money they make. And as for how can they get ahead, well, I'm not exactly sure, but some manage it so it must be possible. quote: Believing opportunity is equal across the board is crap. If your born into poverty in this country your guilty of nothing but being unlucky. You can then look forward to a life of incarceration and distain by a society that would rather call you a thief then demand effective change. Of course opportunity isn't equal across the board, and why should it be? Parents who are successful have every right to use there money to benefit there children, and to say otherwise is lunacy. As for being born into poverty, well, some people do manage to get out of poverty rather then laying back and taking what the government is willing to give them. But then they don't count do they, as they arenÔÇÖt in poverty any more; all that are left are the loosers and druggies (which are usually one and the same). quote: Sure whatever....if anything forcing corporations to take responsibility for their workers and acts of negligence have made current success possible. First of all, corporations arenÔÇÖt responsible for there workers, at least not more then superficially, rather the workers are responsible for themselves. They are responsible for making themselves valuable to the company that employs them, and if they fail to do so then they have the potential to be fired. Furthermore, weighing a company down with loads of unneeded employees would be hideous. If a company wants to downsize then it should be free to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Trotter Posted November 26, 2002 Report Share Posted November 26, 2002 Dear Lothar, I really feel for you.I read your posts and am heartened that SOME people in here have a legitimate concern for others less fortunate than themselves. It is much easier to refer to all poor people has people who don't want to work and have designs on some middle class dope with illusions of wealth. There are folks in here who suck up to the ruling class so much THEY ACTUALLY THINK THEY ARE PART OF IT! They are not . They are us . They just don't get it. You are wasting precious time trying valiantly to appeal to the soul-less. And yes dear readers if you think you were put here to only look out for yourself and have disdain for the less fortunate then yes I mean you. Just an opinion. This directed to you , not them though as you are reading this up they are already warming up the propoganda machine to flame this post. Go ahead be my guest. Give it up Lotharr, you are better than this and any more responses while I appreciate reading them , is like wasting Shakespeare on apes. You will never get them to question one belief , ponder that there may be two sides to a story , or introduce some information that does anything more than confirm their original opinion. That's sad. I for one have read post from opposing views that caused me to question what I beleive. On many occassions Jag will write something that informs me of something I didn't know , but not once have I seen evidence of any real exchange of ideas on their part. It is an exercise in futility so I have decided to spend my time on something more fruitful. Last week I joined a group of men who mentor at risk youth. I expect I'll have less time on the forums(and less time at the joystick)but since we liberals are so despised I don't think my absence will be noticible. So I urge you to not beat your head against the wall , it don't change the wall and is a constant source of headaches Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted November 26, 2002 Report Share Posted November 26, 2002 People who suck up to the ruling class eh? Sorry darling, but I haven't a clue what who you're talking about. That doesn't seam to describe Jaguar, Dredd, or $ilk, and it sure as bloody hell doesn't describe me. I don't need to suck up to the ruling class, and quite frankly, I wouldn't want to be bothered with ruling anything, at least not the way it's done in this country. Furthermore, I wasn't put here for any reason, but since I am here I might as well look out for myself and let others lookout for themselves. It seams fair enough. I look out for myself, others are free to look out for themselves to the best of there ability. As for flaming your post, get real darling, when exactly was the last time you noticed anyone getting flamed on this forum? Now, I don't know, you may consider being logically disagreed with the same as being flamed, but for the rest of us that's called participating in a debate. Now, on the other hand, your comment about apes is more then a little derogatory. And if you consider yourself the only person who's opinion is being swayed here then you are dead wrong as I know for a fact my opinion has changed in a number of ways since I first started posting on this forum. On the other hand, my opinion swung further right, not left, so that may not count. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lotharr Posted November 26, 2002 Author Report Share Posted November 26, 2002 quote: That doesn't seam to describe Jaguar, Dredd, or $ilk, and it sure as bloody hell doesn't describe me Everybody realizes what you represent....and what that is differs distinctly from them....even if indirectly and unknowingly you ultimately serve the same people. quote: Now, on the other hand, your comment about apes is more then a little derogatory So when you make extremely derogatory sweeping generalities that should be considered appropriate? Now I'm not up on the lingo but isn't that trolling.when you run around trying to pick a fight with statements that are inflammatory and inaccurate? quote: There are folks in here who suck up to the ruling class so much THEY ACTUALLY THINK THEY ARE PART OF IT! They are not . They are us . They just don't get it. In a way I find it interesting to see how those who truly believe in their country and the noble ideals of self governance and freedom grapple with the propaganda machine and what it actually represents....even better, it brings out those who speak for the face behind the mask....even if they like to pretend they would ever be included by those they defend. quote: is like wasting Shakespeare on apes. quote: Last week I joined a group of men who mentor at risk youth. Your sense of duty to the people is the mark of a true patriot. quote: So I urge you to not beat your head against the wall , it don't change the wall and is a constant source of headaches I have a thick head. Next semester I'll be taking a more direct role in raising awareness and continuing in the footsteps of those remarkable people who led the way and who continue the fight against the vast tyranny and injustice that continue to twist and mock the ideals of our country....so I probably won't have that much time either. quote: I don't think my absence will be noticible I'll notice and I believe others will too...so hopefully once in a while youll get the chance to type out a good smack down for those who desperately need it. Good luck. [ 11-26-2002, 05:42 PM: Message edited by: Lotharr ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 26, 2002 Report Share Posted November 26, 2002 Beannies, tin foil beanies for sale. Get your tin foil beannies here folks. They are going fast, Lotharr, cheap cheap, Race Bannon, have one for you too. Beannies, tin foil beannies for sale, get your tin foil beannies right here!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted November 26, 2002 Report Share Posted November 26, 2002 quote: Everybody realizes what you represent....and what that is differs distinctly from them....even if indirectly and unknowingly you ultimately serve the same people. I serve myself darling, and if others benefit from that, well, I'm hardly going to object. quote: So when you make extremely derogatory sweeping generalities that should be considered appropriate? Now I'm not up on the lingo but isn't that trolling.when you run around trying to pick a fight with statements that are inflammatory and inaccurate? Ok, so I'm a little bitter at the kinds of injustices done by the majority of poor people on to those of us with money, that's no more trolling then making wildly inaccurate and derogatory comments about wealthy people and corporations. quote: Beannies, tin foil beanies for sale. Get your tin foil beannies here folks. Ok darling, you absolutely have to explain this to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 27, 2002 Report Share Posted November 27, 2002 quote: Ok darling, you absolutely have to explain this to me. Darling, I will give it my best shot. When you hear a conspiracy theory, or some whacked out opinion, that makes no sense or are delusions of a professional paranoid, or person that lives in a delusion, you tell them to A: either take off their tin foil beannie and get a clue, or you tell them to put their tin foil beannie back on because the mind control rays have gotten to them. If you wish to hear more about a Tin foil beannie, then please go here. Sometimes, I just get so tired of the silly stuff that I see popping out of my screen at me that the Beannie is the ONLY thing to say. Oh, and Please see these wonderful Testimonials. [ 11-26-2002, 07:19 PM: Message edited by: Jaguar ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted November 27, 2002 Report Share Posted November 27, 2002 LMAO! Aluminum Foil beanies to protect against psycotronic mind control, that's rich! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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