Jump to content

*bawls* Annex us already!


Akuma Minako
 Share

Recommended Posts

I hate political discussions...But Jean Cretchian (I spelt it wrong on purpose. ) isn't a leader and won't ever be no matter how disillusioned he is.

So all I have to say is, America...Annex us already. I won't mind.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Akuma,

We don't want to annex you, we don't want your healthcare program, we don't want your socialist experiments, we sure as heck don't want your debt, ours is big enough as it is.

How about this, we will give you all our liberals and socialists, and we will take all of your conservatives. Which means that you would probably want to move south. Then we lock the border and let them spend themselves into oblivion, and we can actually keep the money we earn down here.

That would work!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Grayfox

quote:

How about this, we will give you all our liberals and socialists, and we will take all of your conservatives. Which means that you would probably want to move south. Then we lock the border and let them spend themselves into oblivion, and we can actually keep the money we earn down here.


LMAO!!!!

wouldnt work... too many people would cry about it.

i say send em and sin loi.

the canadian government is having a field day over the "trial" about those illinois reserve pilots that dropped ordinance on a bunch of canadian troops.

thing is they dropped the ordinance because the canadians opened fire on their aircraft, so they thought they were being attacked.

so much for training ground troops about aircraft target recognition eh?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:

Originally posted by Grayfox:

quote:

How about this, we will give you all our liberals and socialists, and we will take all of your conservatives. Which means that you would probably want to move south. Then we lock the border and let them spend themselves into oblivion, and we can actually keep the money we earn down here.


LMAO!!!!

wouldnt work... too many people would cry about it.

i say send em and sin loi.

the canadian government is having a field day over the "trial" about those illinois reserve pilots that dropped ordinance on a bunch of canadian troops.

thing is they dropped the ordinance because the canadians opened fire on their aircraft, so they thought they were being attacked.

so much for training ground troops about aircraft target recognition eh?


Get the story straight.

Go and read the report on these sites

Canadian Board Of Inquiry

American official report

Now I took the following is from the AMERICAN report so you can't acuse me of Bias:

quote:

E. FINAL INCIDENT SEQUENCE

At Tarnak Farms Range, the _____ crew had fired two of their remaining three rounds but were having difficulty properly loading the last round. Corporal _____ completed loading the final round and Corporal _____ was preparing to fire the weapon. Sergeant _____, the soldier furthest to the south, was observing the tank stalk crew.

The _____ gunners, Corporal Dyer and Private Smith, directed by Master Corporal _____, had fired all their ammunition and the gunner manning the _____, Corporal _____, was firing at a slow rate (3-4 round bursts with about a 10 second pause between bursts) because he was conserving his ammunition. He occasionally fired faster bursts to assist the _____ gunners in sighting the tank target as necessary. Sergeant L├®ger and Master Corporal _____ continued supervising the tank stalk team.

At 2124:54Z, in immediate response to direction to hold fire and request for information on the SAFIRE, COFFEE 52 told _____"Okay IÔÇÖve got a, uh, IÔÇÖve got some men on a road and it looks like a piece of artillery firing at us. I am rolling in in self defense.ÔÇØ _____responded four seconds later, ÔÇ£_____ copies.ÔÇØ Immediately after, COFFEE 51 reminded COFFEE 52 over the UHF frequency, ÔÇ£Check master arm, laser arm.ÔÇØ At the same time, _____ relayed to _____ COFFEE 52ÔÇÖs declaration of self-defense. COFFEE 52 then called ÔÇ£bombs awayÔÇØ over the UHF radio frequency and released one 500 pound GBU-12 laser-guided bomb. Thirty-eight seconds after _____call concerning COFFEE flightÔÇÖs declaration of self-defense, _____ told _____, ÔÇ£_____, _____, be advised Kandahar has friendlies, you are to get COFFEE 51 out of there as soon as possible.ÔÇØ This call was received by _____ during bomb impact and was immediately acknowledged.

As the bomb was released, Sergeant L├®ger began walking from the _____ team towards the machine gun crew. Private Green was kneeling. Sergeant _____ and Corporals _____ and _____ heard a whistling sound that Sergeant _____ immediately recognized as incoming fire. The GBU-12 impacted the ground approximately three feet to the left of the machine gun crew on the west lip of Wadi East. The main force of the explosion hit the south end of the line of ten soldiers. Sergeant L├®ger, Corporal Dyer, Private Green and Private Smith died immediately. Two minutes and 20 seconds had elapsed from COFFEE 52's request to employ his 20mm cannon until the GBU-12 impacted at Tarnak Farms.

After the bomb detonated, COFFEE 52 called shack over the radio frequency, indicating a direct hit on the target. This call was not acknowledged. Nine seconds after the bomb impacted the ground, COFFEE 52 began a radio call to ____. _____ interrupted and relayed the CAOC's directions to COFFEE flight to "Disengage, friendlies Kandahar." COFFEE 52 acknowledged the order from _____ and said, disengaging south. COFFEE flight then proceeded southwest on their original heading of 230 degrees to rendezvous with an assigned air refueling tanker.

Approximately five seconds after informing _____ that he was disengaging south, COFFEE 51 called, ÔÇ£Copy, uh, can you confirm that they were shooting at us?ÔÇØ _____ replied, ÔÇ£COFFEE 51, ______, you cleared self-defense [unintelligible] ___ wants you to work south. There may be friendlies Kandahar.ÔÇØ

After air refueling, COFFEE flight returned to their deployed location. The return flight lasted approximately____ . While en route to the air refueling tanker, there was considerable communication, both internally between the two pilots, and externally with _____, concerning the location and the nature of the reported SAFIRE. Upon arrival at their deployed location, the pilots were met planeside by the 332 AEG Commander, Colonel Nichols. He informed the two pilots of the friendly fire incident.

AWACS remained on station for another _____ after COFFEE flight departed the area. They then returned to their deployed location. The crew was met at the debrief by their squadron operations officer, Lieutenant Colonel _____, who gathered information from them regarding their involvement with the friendly fire incident.

...

B. GROUND Situation

A review of the environmental conditions, procedures, and the specific ground events of 17 April 2002 provide overall context for this incident.

Environmental Conditions

Weather was briefed to the COFFEE flight approximately nine hours before the incident. The forecast weather for eastern Afghanistan called for a few scattered clouds at 8,000 feet and at 20,000 feet, unrestricted visibility, with upper level winds (at 24,000 feet) from the west at 20 to 40 knots. Actual conditions did not differ significantly. In addition, both COFFEE flight aircraft indicated that no clouds or other weather obscurations (e.g., fog, smoke, or dust) were present during the incident.

The incident occurred in the middle of the night, at approximately 0050L Afghanistan time. The moon had set, yielding low light conditions for both ground troops and airmen, with and without NVGs. Some ambient light was available from starlight and cultural lighting, e.g., artificial light sources emanating from the ground. The most significant source of cultural lighting would have been emitting from the detention center at Kandahar Airport, five nautical miles to the north of Tarnak Farms Range. This lighting consisted of 43 1500-watt floodlights spaced around the compound and aimed to light up all areas within the fence line. C-130 crews commented that these lights could be seen up to 70 miles away on a clear night.

Tarnak Farms Range

Tarnak Farms in Afghanistan was used by the Taliban and al-Qaeda as a training camp. After securing control of the area in January 2002, Task Force _____ used Tarnak Farms as a training range. Upon arrival in theater at the end of January, Task Force (TF) RAKKASAN also began using this site as a live-fire range consistent with both Canadian and U.S. regulations. Shortly after relieving Task Force _____, TF RAKKASAN published the Task Force Range Standard Operating Procedures (SOPs) for all ranges located within the ____ Area of Operations (AO). The SOP provided guidance for safe and efficient training on ranges. These SOPs were updated and re-issued in April 2002 prior to the Alpha Company exercise at Tarnak Farms Range on 17 April 2002.

Annex D to the Range SOP covers the specific requirements of the Tarnak Farms Range. Weapons authorized for use on the Tarnak Farms Range, with the Canadian equivalent weapon designation in brackets, are _____ . Several live-fire maneuver scenarios are authorized.

The Tarnak Farms Range SOP required a Liaison Officer (LNO) to be in the Kandahar Airport control tower with direct communications capability to the tactical operations center of the unit using the range to ensure that all firing ceased when aircraft intended to land.

The Tarnak Farms Range SOP was drafted in compliance with U.S. and Canadian orders and instructions applicable to this type of range training facility. The actual conduct of the Alpha Company range exercise was organized and conducted in accordance with the Tarnak Farms Range SOP.

i. Capt _____, the 3 PPCLI Battalion Training Officer, reserved the time on the range 7-10 days in advance, in accordance with TF RAKKASAN Range SOPs, and attended the appropriate Task Force Weekly Resource Training Meeting to coordinate the use of the range by Alpha Company the night of 17 April 2002.

ii. The Alpha Company Second-in-Command, Captain _____, acted as the overall Range Safety Officer for the range. He was present on the range at all times for the Alpha Company range practice conducted the night of 17 April 2002.

iii. Alpha Company positioned an LNO, Corporal _____, in the Kandahar control tower during their use of the Tarnak Farm Range. This LNO was in constant contact with the range via radio relay through the 3 PPCLI tactical operations center.

iv. After arriving on the range at 1530Z, Capt _____ conducted a range safety brief to all personnel. Capt _____ established communications with his LNO in the Kandahar tower.

v. Before commencing the live-fire training, Capt _____ verified that his communications with the LNO in the control tower via relay through the 3 PPCLI tactical operations center were good. They had notified TF RAKKASAN that they would be firing tracers IAW the SOP.

vi. The radio was positioned with the range ambulance and constantly manned.

vii. Medical coverage for the range consisted of a Bison armored ambulance and three medical assistants under the direction of Sergeant _____. The ambulance was positioned in the administrative area to the immediate rear of the range firing area, with the rear of the ambulance facing the range and the ambulance doors open.

viii. Capt _____ marked the range limits with chemical glow lights. When Alpha Company requested permission to open the range at 1545Z, Capt _____ indicated that all range requirements had been met.

The layout of the range was organized according to established US and Canadian procedures for this type of range training and included an administrative area, an ammunition point/waiting area, and a designated range area. (See figure 4.1). The company had approximately 100 personnel on the range that evening, including both range participants and support personnel. At the time of the incident, they were all wearing combat uniforms, including personal protective equipment such as helmets and flak vests.

To maximize the use of available training time, the range was split into two concurrent activities: a close quarter battle range (CQB) with Capt _____ acting as the Safety Officer and a tank stalk range with Sgt L├®ger acting as Safety Officer. The CQB was conducted with small groups of four or five personnel training and moving along a dry river bed, referred to as Wadi South. No tracers were used on the CQB. As previously discussed, the tank stalk training was firing from Wadi East to the west against a tank hull. Although there were nearly 100 Alpha Company soldiers on the range the evening of 17 April 2002, the number engaged in training on the tank stalk and CQB ranges at any one time was limited to a 10-man tank stalk team and a 5-man CQB team.

...

CAUSES OF THE INCIDENT

The Coalition Investigation Board found by clear and convincing evidence that the cause of the friendly fire incident on 17 April 2002 was the failure of Major [Y], the 170th Expeditionary Fighter Squadron Weapons Officer and the incident flight wingman, to exercise appropriate flight discipline. This resulted in a violation of the rules of engagement and the inappropriate use of lethal force. Under the circumstances, Major [Y] acted with reckless disregard for the foreseeable consequences of his actions, thereby endangering friendly forces in the Kandahar area.

The Board also found by clear and convincing evidence that an additional cause of the incident was the failure of Major [X], the 170th Expeditionary Fighter Squadron Commander and the incident flight lead, to exercise appropriate in-flight leadership. This resulted in his wingman's violation of the rules of engagement and inappropriate use of lethal force. Under the circumstances, Major [X] acted with reckless disregard for the foreseeable consequences of his actions, thereby endangering friendly forces in the Kandahar area.


I take the above comment rather personally, as I myself am a Canadian Forces member.

What if it had happened the other way around... think about that. I don't think you'd find me laughing at the fact that some of your fellow Armed Forces members got whacked because of people ignoring protocols.

Shit like this happens in war, yeah, but don't go insulting the people who were sent there to do their job.

A pilot ****ed up, and killed some troops.

That's not funny, it's a horrible tragedy. And shit like this happens every day.

It's not a thing to even joke about.

[ 11-28-2002, 01:58 AM: Message edited by: Fractux ]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:

the canadian government is having a field day over the "trial" about those illinois reserve pilots that dropped ordinance on a bunch of canadian troops.

You seem not to care.

quote:

thing is they dropped the ordinance because the canadians opened fire on their aircraft, so they thought they were being attacked.

Oh yes, who's the idiot who's going to fire a mortar at an aircraft?

quote:

so much for training ground troops about aircraft target recognition eh?

So much for training USAF pilots about threat recognition, eh?

What about knowing where the friendlies are?

Shoot first, think later, huh?

quote:

"Okay IÔÇÖve got a, uh, IÔÇÖve got some men on a road and it looks like a piece of artillery firing at us."

Man this guy seems to sure. And he didn't even waited for instructions and went ahead when he wasn't clearly under attack.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree that those pilots were dummies. Some facts about myself:

1. I live in Las Vegas, NV.

2. I have many friends in the AF.

3. Militaria is a big hobby of mine.

4. Nellis AFB is home to "Red Flag", the AF version of "Top Gun"

5. I get to hear a lot of stories from the base.

There have been several accidents over the years on that base. Several come to mind:

1. An F-111 Aardvark was trying to evade a simulated missile and flew into a ridge, killing both crewmen during a training exercise.

2. During a simulated dogfight, one F-15 was accidentally loaded with a live AIM-120 missile and shot down another F-15. The Wing Commander survived. He was shot down by the newb Lt.

3. During regular maintinence, an F-16 engine block was not properly secured to the test bed. Only 1/2 of the tie downs were used. When ramped up to full power, it slid off the test bed and fell 4' to the ground.

4. During the re-installation of another F-16 engine, the control cable was not calibrated properly. Although the throttle was in "idle", the engine was running at full Mil (full power, no ABs). When the plane was started on the tarmac, it jumped the blocks and rolled off the end of the runway. The pilot ejected saftely while the aircraft went into the nice desert dirt and sucked up lots of rocks and destroyed the engine.

The point? In not one of these cases was someone held criminally responsible. I'm glad that someone finally put these people up to stand trial for what they have done. As an American I'm offended that this kind of negligence, ESPECIALLY with live ordanace happened.

Several good men are dead that didn't need to be. They CLEARLY did not bother with protocols and the ROE in identifying their targets. Let the Canadians hang em high I say.

My two pesos.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

there are a few answers i would like to know.

what's the difference in standard of training between a reserve air nation guard pilot and one active...?

were they active combat pilots before shifting to a reserve capacity?

do they have actual combat experience?

what and how often do they train periodically during peace time since they are just reserved?

it should be apparant to anyone that a reservist pilot could never be "on the ball" so to speak like an active combat pilot constantly flying patrols.

is the case that reserve pilots were called up and sent out there or did they volunteer?

and if they were sent...it was a mistake...they are too inexperienced, they don't live with a were at war mind set. to thrust them from reservist duty to combat duty...is just too big a jump for something like that.....

but until i hear if anyone can answer my above questions it doesnt make much sense arguing for or against the circumstances of such a deadly mistake.

we can sit here and say they should have done this...or that but i for one can say that in that position... a combat pilot thinking he's under attack, how long does he have to react to save his life?

maybe in this case it didnt warrant him returning fire on the source so fast, but that would depend on how high he was...and if he knew it was infantry he was seeing...and if that infantry could really be a threat.

of course getting a bit windy now is how far is he from controlled friendly territory...is there intelligence of possible enemy in the area...couldn't he AB away mark the position and radio for advice...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I do believe that the reservist pilots get the same training as the frontline pilots. I remember being told about reservists at the Red Flag exercises (tee hee... the name is a throw back to the cold war... during the frist gulf war, it was called "Desert Flag".)

As far as having actual combat experience, it's a moot point. Most of the pilots that were around during the gulf war are now getting pretty old. The Red Flag exercises are as close as they can get. There aren't many places where we can send

In the terms of self defense for a pilot, AAA fire at +2-3000 feet AGL isn't much of a threat. They didn't have any radars so his RWR wasn't going to be beeping away at him. I'm sure he was briefed that the OPFOR didn't have any shoulder launched IR missles. The pilot was in an area that could have contained friendlies and he didn't bother to check. There was a whole series of checks he could have done, which are a part of ANY PILOTS BASIC TRAINING. He chose to ignore it and kill several people.

Friendly Fire isn't.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I couldn't decide which thread to put this in, but since this is about what craziness there is in Canada, I thought that I would put it here.

This guy is Canadian, by the way.

quote:

All the Liberals have to offer are loose lips

Mark Steyn

Thursday, November 28, 2002

So much news, one can barely take it all in. From Il Nuevo in Italy comes the intriguing story, "Shoplifter Caught With Frozen Drumstick In Pants":

"A shoplifter who stuffed a frozen chicken drumstick down his underpants was caught because he couldn't stop hopping around. A cashier spotted the 25-year-old man moving around and repeatedly touching his groin as he queued for tills at a supermarket in Saronno ... She called a security officer and the man immediately admitted he had stuffed some frozen food down the front of his pants ... He had been unable to keep still because the frozen drumstick was giving him pain."

There, in a drumstick, is the Chr├®tien-Ducros approach to damage control: bury the story, stick it out of sight, keep smiling and walk calmly toward the exit, no-one'll notice a thing. Then the world looks on amazed as a supposedly semi-serious second-rank power is suddenly convulsed in weird spasms, doubled up in pain, hopping around, clutching its groin.

What happened this last week? I think President Chirac got it right. Treating M. Chr├®tien like a lame mutt the neighbourhood gang keeps lobbing pebbles at, he imperiously swatted aside a press question about Morongate. "We are in France," declared M. Chirac. "We are not here to discuss Canadian domestic issues."

Exactly. This is a domestic issue, not an international incident, despite Saddam Hussein's decision to leap to Miss Ducros' defence, surely a measure of the poor fellow's desperation. President Bush is not troubled by being dismissed as a moron by the Government of Canada for the same reason that that smug grandee from CPAC put up to defend our honour on CNN was not troubled when Bob Novak read out something by a columnist from The London Free Press, Herman Goodden. "Who is this guy?" scoffed the CPAC honcho. "I've never heard of him."

Well, I've heard of Mr. Goodden. He's holding down a regular gig at the dominant paper in its market. But obviously it's not like being a swanky public-broadcasting preener at Channel 112, living high off the hog at taxpayer expense. So CPAC's answer to Lady Bracknell pulled rank, refusing to dignify this Goodden chappie by acknowledging his existence. In Morongate, Bush is the CPAC guy, Chr├®tien is Mr. Goodden, and thus too footling and inconsequential to merit a response.

This is what puts the past week's excitements in the same category as the fellow staggering round a supermarket with a frozen drumstick in his briefs: for everyone else, it's fun to watch and has no wider implications. Yesterday's Globe and Mail carried a column on the subject by Lawrence Martin under the heading "Loose Lips" -- as in the old wartime slogan "Loose Lips Sink Ships." Alas, our decommissioned Dominion doesn't have any ships to sink, though a mere half-century ago the Royal Canadian Navy was the third largest surface fleet in the world. This is the point President Moron was discreetly making in Prague, to Francie's evident displeasure. So, in this instance, Sunk Ships Loosed Lips.

In fairness to her, unlike the 99.99% of Canadians who apparently believe Mr. Bush is a moron in general, Miss Ducros was suggesting that Mr. Bush is only a moron specifically: the guy shows up at a meeting of a military alliance and wants to discuss military capability. What a chump, eh? For reasons best known to himself, the Prime Minister decided to deflect a gaffe with a lie. (Gosh, I hope that doesn't become a habit.) "He is not a moron," he said. "He is my friend."

Do you believe that? Mr. Mulroney and Bush Sr. are friends and see each other socially. But the day M. Chr├®tien ceases to be Prime Minister he will never ever exchange another word with George W. Bush for as long as he lives. Indeed, their relationship may well reach that happy state some months ahead of schedule. Consider by way of comparison Tony Blair. Like Chr├®tien, Blair wanted Al Gore to be President. Like Chr├®tien, he finds Bush not quite his cup of tea -- a bit too Texan and backslappy and casual for Tony's tastes. Like Chr├®tien, he presides over a party that is for the most part viscerally anti-American. So what does he do? He doesn't claim to be buddies, he gets on with building a working relationship. As for anti-Americanism, here's Blair last month:

"It's easy to be anti-American; there's a lot of it about. But remember when and where this alliance was forged: here in Europe, in World War II when Britain and America and every decent citizen in Europe joined forces to liberate Europe from the Nazi evil. My vision of Britain is not as the 51st state of anywhere, but I believe in this alliance. And I will fight long and hard to maintain it."

Here he is addressing his party a year earlier:

"America has its faults as a society, as we have ours. But I think of the union of America born out of the defeat of slavery. I think of its constitution, with its inalienable rights granted to every citizen, still a model for the world. I think of a black man, born in poverty, who became chief of their armed forces and is now Secretary of State, Colin Powell, and I wonder frankly whether such a thing could have happened here. I think of all this and I reflect: yes, America has its faults, but it is a free country, it is our ally and some of the reaction to September 11 betrays a hatred of America that shames those that feel it."

Why couldn't Chr├®tien say that?

Because he doesn't believe it. He doesn't believe Bush is his friend, either: He knows the President regards him as a boorish irrelevance. But some lies are easier to tell than others, and these days all the Liberals have to offer are loose lips: If we boast about our exceptional peacekeeping often enough, the fact that we no longer do it won't matter. As long as our nomenklatura pays loose-lip service to Kyoto and "encourages" the rest of us into 1986 Honda Civics, it doesn't matter that Herb Dhaliwal swans around like a Hamas warlord in his three-tonne Cadillac Escalade. Geez, that's bigger than my SUV and I'm in favour of global warming. The almost Soviet disconnect between reality and the party line is so routinely accepted in Canada's public discourse that you can understand Francie's resentment at being momentarily confronted by Mr. Bush's vulgar obsession with the facts.

Fortunately, even as she was packing, Warren Kinsella was live on the CBC restoring the alternative universe of Liberal poseur politics: Canada is America's "closest ally," he said, and furthermore it was Jean Chr├®tien who persuaded George W. Bush to seek UN Security Council approval on Iraq.

Let me ask again: Does even Warren believe either of these things for a nano-second after they've tumbled from his lips? Bush wouldn't consult Chr├®tien if he needed a good restaurant in Nunavut, and you can't be an "ally," close or semi-detached, when you've got no military. You can be the girl standing at the station waving her handkerchief as the troop train pulls out and the Glenn Miller band plays Don't Sit Under The Apple Tree (With Anyone Else But Me). But even Jean and Warren aren't ready to try selling us that one. Hence the contortions of modern Canada: the conscientious objector who insists he's on the front line; the "soft power" whose last drumstick is defrosting in his pants.

Of course, being the celebrated ass-kicker of Canadian politics Warren couldn't resist adding that 60% of Americans couldn't find Canada on a map.

You know why? Because we've dropped off it.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes reservist recieve the same training, but active pilots have flights and training every day, while reservist only trains 2 days a month. That's a big differance over a 2 year period. I'm in the US navy by the way. And simulations can not account for actual battle experiance. And everyone is talking about procedures, as i said reservist don't have the flight time of active pilots, and take into account the fact that you are going at least 200mph you don't have a lot of time to decide what to do

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...