Jump to content

Saddam Captured


LostInSpace
 Share

Recommended Posts

quote:

Originally posted by El Che:

I know I'm the new guy and I know my opinion is not popular, however, has anyone ever considered the fact that the United States gave Hussein the weapons of mass destruction? That is a proven fact. You see, it's kind of like Frankenstein's monster. We (the U.S.) created a monster(Saddam Hussein) by.....providing him with weapons of mass destruction so that he could defeat our enemy, Iran during the Reagan administration. we hated Iran then. remember? Then, he used the chemical weapons on the Iranians and the u.s. said...ok... then he used the weapons on his own people...the kurds... and the world said ...whoa... but the U.S. said, hey, it's ok....relax...then, he invaded kuwait.....and saudi arabia got on the phone and said .....ahem...so we attacked him and now he is the villian when all along he was the monster we created....just my view on it

And if it was, then it was our duty nay responsibility to deal with him ourselves not the world circus.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 59
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

quote:

Originally posted by El Che:

I know I'm the new guy and I know my opinion is not popular, however, has anyone ever considered the fact that the United States gave Hussein the weapons of mass destruction? That is a proven fact. You see, it's kind of like Frankenstein's monster. We (the U.S.) created a monster(Saddam Hussein) by.....providing him with weapons of mass destruction so that he could defeat our enemy, Iran during the Reagan administration. we hated Iran then. remember? Then, he used the chemical weapons on the Iranians and the u.s. said...ok... then he used the weapons on his own people...the kurds... and the world said ...whoa... but the U.S. said, hey, it's ok....relax...then, he invaded kuwait.....and saudi arabia got on the phone and said .....ahem...so we attacked him and now he is the villian when all along he was the monster we created....just my view on it

Oh please, I have got to see you back this up.

The fact of the matter is, we NEVER gave Saddam any WMD's, if you want to know who did, look to Germany and France, and of course Russia.

The ONLY country that we have EVER given WMD's to is Britain. We have given no other WMD's to ANY other country without total and absolute control over them ourelves.

Where you picked up this bit of propaganda is beyond me, but let me repeat this.

WE HAVE NEVER GIVEN WMD'S TO IRAQ, NEVER. Is that clear enough?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm with Jag on this.

Why do you think France and Germany were so adamantly against the military action in Iraq?

They were making money off old Saddam by selling him prohibited technology, and with our intervention they fear that their part in the insanity will be discovered. And it will be.

Mark my words.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:

Originally posted by Wolferz:

I'm with Jag on this.

Why do you think France and Germany were so adamantly against the military action in Iraq?

They were making money off old Saddam by selling him prohibited technology, and with our intervention they fear that their part in the insanity will be discovered. And it will be.

Mark my words.

Yeah and more than likely that's the debt we are asking France and Germany to forgive!!! And using being a sub-contracter as a bargaining tool for them to forgive it. I say let them eat crow. Why don't Iraq just declare bankruptcy. I don't see why that would not work. I mean hell Companies do that all the time and re-structure the whole organization from the top down. Hmm, sounds like Iraq doesn't it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Since we have a new player to the game, let's briefly review the rules of engagement.

This site is dedicated to advancing the Battlecruiser franchise. That is the foremost reason why we are here.

However, because of the high learning curve of the series, it attracts a fan base of highly intelligent people who look for depth in their gameplay. Those people also look for depth in their news, analysis, and debate. Therefore, this site has evolved into a debate club as well. The people here span the spectrum from high-school/college students, to professionals in all fields of endeavor and stages in life.

Regarding debate, we cherish diversity of opinion, and we challenge lines of reasoning, facts or lack thereof, but not the people themselves. Links to authorative sites to support or debunk an opinion are always welcome. Debate can get heated at times, and sometimes a referee has to step in and send participants to neutral corners. We hope that this is an infrequent occurrence.

At the end of the day, the rule of thumb is that we can agree to disagree and then still go out for a beer with each other. After all, it is the game that brings us here, and it is the game that will keep us here. The debates are a privelege, and that privelege can be revoked (read: banned from the site) if abused.

So, once again, welcome to our world. Pull up a chair and stay awhile.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:

Why do you think France and Germany were so adamantly against the military action in Iraq?

They were making money off old Saddam by selling him prohibited technology


Your assessment of the French interest is correct but there is another aspect to Germany that most Americans do not realize. Germans seem to have militarism in their blood. Germany marches to full blown war whenever the country is unified and a catalyst is introduced to rekindle the fires of the Prussian spirit. Germany did not want the taste of war because they fear that they may come to enjoy it once more.

Also, the United States benefited from arms sales to Iraq for we essentially armed Saddam during the Iran/Iraq war.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:

Originally posted by IceCold:

quote:

Why do you think France and Germany were so adamantly against the military action in Iraq?

They were making money off old Saddam by selling him prohibited technology


Your assessment of the French interest is correct but there is another aspect to Germany that most Americans do not realize. Germans seem to have militarism in their blood. Germany marches to full blown war whenever the country is unified and a catalyst is introduced to rekindle the fires of the Prussian spirit. Germany did not want the taste of war because they fear that they may come to enjoy it once more.

Also, the United States benefited from arms sales to Iraq for we essentially armed Saddam during the Iran/Iraq war.


I don't know anything about the Prussian blood thing, it might be true, and if so, it is rather frightening.

The last bit is also true, but we only gave Saddam conventional weapons, we never gave him any WMD's, ever. Conventional equipment was all that we ever sold to him. At the time we were also a little PO'd at Iran, they had taken our citizens hostage and we were still torqued off about it. The enemy of our enemy and all that fun stuff.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

All right...

First and foremost, I think what El Che was attempting to imply was that while the United States does not supply ANY country save our closest allies (Britain) with NBC weapons, we might have kinda sorta maybe could-have-in-a-round-about-way have somewhat trained their scientists sorta What I mean is that a few of their scientists were indeed trained in the United States.

For example:

Khalid Ibrahim Sa'id

and...

Barnes and Noble has a wonderful "conspiracy-theory" book, "Saddam's Bombmaker" regarding this issue regarding another scientist.

In addition, there are those people in the world who believe what their brothers ex girlfriendÔÇÖs motherÔÇÖs sister said. Evidently, there are also those people who, if they spill food on their morning paper, make no attempt to remove it and instead just continue to read on, ignoring key words that happen to be obstructed by food. Words like ÔÇ£notÔÇØ ÔÇ£didnÔÇÖtÔÇØ and ÔÇ£has notÔÇØ These words, called negatives because they negate previous statements, are very important and should not be ignored.

I believe the article referring to our sale of NBC related materials can be traced to someone committing the previous paragraphÔÇÖs errors when reading it. The information in question can be found here. Please bear in mind the points mentioned in the previous paragraph and note that a lack of information does not justify filling in the gaps with pure speculation. This article states that Don Rumsfeld went to Iraq. While he was there, he did not admonish the Iraqi government for using NBC weapons. Now, that is quite strange indeed. Why didnÔÇÖt the man who was a private citizen at the time berate the leader of a brutal military dictatorship regarding his alleged use of NBC weapons against Iran? Come to think of it, who paid attention to the Middle East while the Evil Empire was still around? We were much more interested in curbing the spread of radical Islam than curbing the spread of low-tech weaponry. This is not a chicken-or-the-egg thing. Radical Islam is a major player in the proliferation of black market weapon sales. Get rid of the crazies and you don't have to worry about them blowing you up.

Some elements of the United States government might have had a friendly relationship with Iraq pre-1991 due to the increasingly intertwined nature of business and international relations. In addition, officials in defense-related industries would have not had to inform the State Department of their activities in dealing with Iraq since Iraq was removed from the list of countries that are state sponsors of terrorism in 1982. It was a very different time than it is today. Do not forget the chronology of these events.

Iran-Iraq War, 1980-1988

Operation Desert Storm, 16 Jan 1991

Fall of the Soviet Union, 25 Dec 1991

From the list of dates above, it is obvious that Iraq was not our primary concern and indeed, it should not have been. With the Soviet Union teetering on the verge of collapse, 1990-1992 were a very dangerous time as demonstrated by the failed coup attempt .

I will mention that we have indeed sold some military hardware and supplied the technical expertise to operate and maintain it. Here is the official information regarding Iraqs demographic, economic, and military status, circa 1987 from the Library of Congress. Note the M-60 among others. We made those weapon systems. We provided technical support to maintain their operational status, and we are the ones who, in the end, blew them up with relative ease. Kind of ironic. Just goes to show ummm hrmmm we need better armor on our stuff, especially on the top

If you insist on being critical of how our system of government works, please refer to the General Accounting Office and Inspector General websites. The offer wonderful, substantiated claims of fraud, waste, abuse of power, etc, which would include the illegal sale of classified military hardware (NBC) to countries that are recent tenants on the State SponsorÔÇÖs of Terrorism listing.

Wow, that was allot longer than I expected If you got to the bottom to read this, congratulations

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here's my two cents:

quote:

Originally posted by IceCold:

Your assessment of the French interest is correct but there is another aspect to Germany that most Americans do not realize. Germans seem to have militarism in their blood. Germany marches to full blown war whenever the country is unified and a catalyst is introduced to rekindle the fires of the Prussian spirit. Germany did not want the taste of war because they fear that they may come to enjoy it once more.


Bingo! My German language teacher told us practically the same thing in her class (She was born and raised in Germany, right outside of Munich). She told us that when Germany unites in a war they refuse to give up, even if they don't quite agree with it. Look at GSG9, their National Counter-Terrorism unit; they take no prisoners, you even point a gun at them and they blow you to pieces.

Compare that to the USA's FBI Hostage Rescue Team. If a shot is fired in an HRT mission there is extensive investigation as to why it was fired, and the officer is suspended during the investigation. I'm not 100% on this, but I think that if GSG-9 has shots fired the officer isn't suspended until the shot was deemed unlawful.

Germany's military history also show's their might. The Holy Roman Empire, when unified by Charlemagne, won a series of wars. While the HRE did however have its losses, the German solders still fought with zeal unspoken of anywhere else in Western Europe. The Germans during both World War I and II, united, proved to be quite a hassle for their opposers, including us. And we caught them when they were worn down at the end of the wars.

Funny thing is, we're the same way. Look at us, we didn't really have serious war for a while, and now we can't seem to get enough of it. Go figure.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
 Share


×
×
  • Create New...