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Freelancer not vaporware?


Supreme Cmdr
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quote:

Originally posted by fendi:

No joystick support? Thats going to be dissapointing then. It'll be sorta like Bridge Commander. Space sim needs joysticks. It just ain't right.

Bridge Commander's special case. In Bridge mode, it's only point and click, and in tactical mode, the ships are rather slow and all of the weapons auto-aiming (except the torpedoes and disruptors, which are mostly auto-aiming). Bridge Commander != an average fighter-based space sim.

[ 09-04-2002, 11:46 PM: Message edited by: Parias ]

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I'm not really sure HOW it would be better, but anyways, it's possible with certain joysticks and software to actually get that kind of support under Bridge Commander.. albeit, emulated. If you dig through the official forums (assuming they're still up), you should be able to find something on it.

Like I said though, I'm not sure what the point would be.. the game's just way too slow-paced to encourage that kind of thing

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  • 1 month later...

quote:

Originally posted by MIKE113:

Waiting for March!!

LMAO! yeah right

quote:

Freelancer looks better then any space game out there - just check out the screens we've released recently!

Points to IG3

On a more positive (and OT) note, I've been chosen for the Jumpgate Ep2 beta! w00t! Should start in less than a week

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quote:

Points to IG3

*Nods*

I have taught you well, my childe.

Anyways, with all the hub-dub surrounding the game's control scheme, it's been difficult to get a conclusive, finalized answer out of anyone on what exactly's going down.. I've finally managed to learn exactly HOW the game's going to play though. As was expected, you're stuck with the Neural Network AI autopilot system thingie-majigger to fly your fighter around for you. As an alternative, you can also switch to manual and use the... er... mouse to fly your ship. But it's not even a standard, direct hands-on control scheme, you "lead" your helm around with a little pointer, and the ship will change it's vector and try to keep this pointer in the center of your HUD. No direct joystick interface is planned.

Lovely. I know I'm essentially restating what's probably been said numerous times already, but I figured someone might appreciate some final word on the matter.

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quote:

I have taught you well, my childe.

Hehe.

quote:

But it's not even a standard, direct hands-on control scheme, you "lead" your helm around with a little pointer, and the ship will change it's vector and try to keep this pointer in the center of your HUD.

This sounds pretty much like mouse control in jumpgate ... and some of the best jumpgate players are using mouse controls.

Or maybe you mean that you must constantly move you mouse to make a large turn? I believe Bang! Gunship Elite had this sheme.

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  • 2 weeks later...

New article about Freelancer

It's really gone point and click. Man this is a desperate situation .. have developpers given up on skill based combat? Jumpgate is the ONLY joystick driven space mmog out there! Darkspace, Eve, EnB, SWG (the space part) ALL point and click!

Hell I can't even think of any other joystick driven space sims released lately except the battlecruiser series. Next we learn fighter games will go PnC

Damn, Derek if you make BCO point and click (unless for capship control, as the way it looks it could be expected, but then again, I don't know), I'll be mad, and mad alot!

Kevlar said on the JG board - and he's right

quote:

Let me add one thing to this thread, Point & Click requires no learning curve (or very small one), therefore allowing the casual player to be "skilled." This promotes the game to the masses and provides more subscribers. A personal skill based game like JG becomes very frustrating to a large percentage of "noob" subscribers who are looking for something different as they can not easily and quickly enter into a game and excel. Let's be honest a large percentage of American entertainment is 60 minutes or less and if you aren't entertained in that amount of time, then you won't be back.


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quote:


Originally posted by Epsilon 5:

It's really gone point and click. Man this is a desperate situation .. have developpers given up on skill based combat? Jumpgate is the ONLY joystick driven space mmog out there! Darkspace, Eve, EnB, SWG (the space part) ALL point and click!


I don't see whats deperate about it actually. The reason MMOGs are PnC is because the primary character control is tied to the AE's skill. This is something you cannot simulate while using a direct control device such as a joystick.

MMOG games are all skill based and in the case of space sims such as EnB, you cannot tie an AE's flight skills to a joystick control system because that will require real time updates and not go through a skill based system (e.g. how do you prevent someone from rolling left, depending on his piloting skills?).

Most ruled based MMOGs are based on just that, rules. These rules are tied to skills. e.g. your combat skills determined whether or not that axe actually hits the enemy, causes damage etc etc. If that were tied to a real-time control scheme, it would not work.

The creation of space based games to MMOG, presents a similar problem. Hence the EnB control scheme. Which is why it plays like EQ in space. Its just a different genre but with the same premise.

Games like Darkspace and Eve are not space sims. They are glorified RTS games in the vein of, e.g. IG, Hegemonia, Homeworld etc etc - again, rules based. As soon as you folks stop thinking of these games in the same traditional sense of space sims as we once knew them, you'll avert the inherent confusion.

Freelancer is not a space sim. Period. In fact, this excerpt from the Gamespot preview you posted, sums that one up nicely.

quote:


When Freelancer was first announced, it was lauded as a mouse-driven space simulator, but the game's direction has changed in those four years. Even though space combat still plays a major role in its gameplay, Freelancer is heavily laced with traditional role-playing game elements of exploration, experience, character interaction, and character development.


It is a rules based game - albeit an RTS hybrid - which requires a rules based control scheme due to its design requirement of the player's performance being tied to skills - which are in turn tied to a rules based interface (dubbed NeuroNet). If they gave joystick control, there would be no method of tying the NN to the skills already tied to the control scheme. e.g. while you might think that using a joystick to actually control the pointer for target selection, is easy, trust me, its not. Hence the use of the mouse.

Why allow a joystick control scheme when :

  1. the mouse automatically indicates ease of use
  2. mouse interface design is a lot easier, faster, more accurate and acceptable than a joystick one
  3. a joystick is clunky and is definitely not suited for RTS games. So why implement it for an RTS hybrid - or even a game that is tied to skills based subset?
  4. nobody ever accused a game with a joystick of having mass market appeal, in this day an age.

If Freelancer allowed joystick control, it would simply be duplicating the mouse control scheme. Does that make it a space sim that you freely control based on your own personal skills? No. Why? Well because your personal skills have no relevance in that aspect of the game - because your skill determined by the performance of your ship - which is determined by its upgrades - hence the NeuroNet.

Since they can't do away with the NeuroNet (it is an integral part of the design), there is no reason to put in joystick support in any shape or form. The dogfighting skill (the whole purpose of a joystick control scheme) tied to the ship, is not your own per se - but rather is tied to the upgrade you have installed on your ship (as I understand it).

Having joystick and keyboard flight control is no different from having mouse flight control. But people are confusing flight control in the traditional sense, with PnC. You have clearly demonstrated this confusion by assuming that PnC is the same as flight control. Its not.

For example, BCM has PnC and independent flight control. Does that make it a PnC game? uhm, yeah, it does. When you give your CC an order, then engage the A/P, you leave it up to the skills of your crew, Mother (the ship's AI computer), the ship's characteristics etc etc.

But when you disable the A/P and take flight control, in order to do the same thing, you are assuming the responsibility of what the ship, under A/P control, would be doing as far as real time flight control (i.e. dogfighting or similar). You are still limited to the ship's characteristics (flight dynamics, weapon systems etc).

If I disabled the use of the joystick, i.e. take away your ability to have manual flight control of the CC, the game will still be perfectly playable, but you now have to rely on the aforementioned attributes which are controlled by the global AI kernel. The same thing that your support crafts, marines etc etc are subjected to - and which you have no control over.

For example, if one of your fighter pilots decides to fixate on a target, not knowing that he was still open to attack by a target behind him, you can't do anything to prevent that fighter from getting destroyed without your intervention (i.e. giving it an RTB order). And even then, you still have no guarantee that it will RTB safely. Giving it that RTB command simply causes it to break from its current AI processing, execute a different set of instructions (ignoring its own chosen ROE profile) in an attempt to RTB. You did this because you were worried about it being destroyed. You had no way of telling the fighter pilot to watch his six or something like Roamer! break right heading 225 @ angels 10. If the pilot makes this determination on his own, thats due to his AI level. Something you have no control over.

Considering the above, how is BCM different from PnC in Freelancer? Apart from the fact that Freelancer does not give you direct flight control; due to its rules based design.

Freelancer is not a space sim. MS never billed it as a space sim. Everyone else seems to ignore this simple fact. Heck, they even billed Starlancer as an action game, not a space sim (as we have come to regard space based direct control games) - but you still had joystick control. Why? Well, because the skills required in Starlancer are your own, not something simulated by the game engine as part of its design.

Jumpgate is a space sim. As far as I'm aware, there are no rules based skills tied to its flight control scheme. As such, there is no reason to remove joystick support. Even if they did, just like BCM, the design of the game would still permit direct player flight control using keyboard or mouse. How many people actually enjoy playing sims with the keyboard, let alone a mouse? Not very many - if any.

quote:


Damn, Derek if you make BCO point and click (unless for capship control, as the way it looks it could be expected, but then again, I don't know), I'll be mad, and mad alot!

Well, you clearly don't know the difference between PnC and direct flight control. If you did, you wouldn't assume that BCO (or BCG for that matter) would change in this regard.

Fact is, the controls of units in BCO are closely tied to your crew's skills, ship attributes etc.

e.g. if you have a carrier with no FO on board - the ship ain't going anywhere. You will have basic A/P commands which Mother can execute e.g. fly the ship back to the nearest base, maintain a flight pattern etc until the FO is back on the bridge, cloned etc etc

This is much the same way that if your AE is currently not on the bridge in BCM, you won't have manual flight control. In previous BC games, the commander AE is flight trained. And thats why you can still fly the ship in the absence of the FO.

In previous BC games (even BCM), most of the skill attributes required by your crew for the day to day running of your ship, are suppressed. Only a few are actually enabled (see the appendix data). And the current crop of BC games, I deliberately did not couple the flight dynamics of the craft to the availability and skills of the FO. Why? Because they are different kind of games from BCO.

In BCO, because it is skills based and because of its career driven design (see the FAQ), you don't start off being a commander. If you choose that career path, then you're going to start off as a pilot and work your way up (after all, thats what pay-for-play MMOGs are all about). And when you eventually get to be a commander of your very own tin can and given your own NPC crew (though you can also have other players as crew members), you will still have manual flight control, but only IF you have an FO and he is on-station (bridge). You are still going to be able to assume the role of the FO in this instance - and if your AE or FO leave the bridge, you lose this ability.

And make no mistake, the only reason why you can even do this, is because traditionally, BC commanders started off being pilots (in my game design time line) and this will be played out in BCO, since it never was designed to be played out in previous games (in those games, I just cut to the chase and made you a commander based on that career).

There are no requirements in any BC game to couple the flight dynamics of a ship to the player's skill. Thats just ludicrous, especially for a space sim that wasn't designed that way.

In BCO, apart from Beta testers (most of whom will become GMs and have free accounts as long as they are active) and GMs, I don't expect to see any commanders (except NPCs) in space, for the first month or so. Thats how long its going to take to go from piloting rubber dog shit between Earth and LV-130 and being the commander of a ship.

And even then, I don't expect to see very many cruiser commanders on the servers, let alone carrier commanders, for quite some time. In BCO, by the time you even get to where you would in BCM/BCG (at start new game), you would have enough time invested and you'll care more about your crew and the game itself, than you do now in BCM/BCG.

[ 11-11-2002, 03:01 PM: Message edited by: Supreme Cmdr ]

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That clears up my understanding of BCO.

I thought you could start out as a Commander in BCO but after reading that you can't

Thats cool I like it =)

Im sure a lot of us don't want to see n00b commanders raming there cruisers into stations or going on high risk missions without equiping themselves first, where a veteran commander *Ones who have played BCM/BCG and the likes* will already know that if there going to head into a Nebula they best be ready.

If you know what I mean.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Actually those space shots don't impress me a great deal either. The screenshots released recently for both BCG and X2 look much nicer in my opinion (the new X2 movie is gorgeous).

But as long as it delivers on gameplay then I will be perfectly happy. Definitely looking forward to it!

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 1 month later...

one of the jumpgate players got the Freelancer beta by mail! He posted 15 ingame screenies here , the other ones (after 15) are released screenies.

quote:

(original post by Veloxi
) I am so damned excited, because I just got the beta of a game I've been waiting almost five years for, Freelancer. I just spent about eight hours straight playing the game, something I've not done for a VERY long time, even for Jumpgate. This game is incredibly awesome. I took fifteen screenshots of the game, all of which you can see by clicking
.

I'm working on a review for the game, so I can't reveal everything, but I'd be happy to answer what I can if anyone has any questions. I'll be busy for a while, so don't expect a quick response. Suffice it to say, I probably won't be playing Jumpgate for a week or two. Thanks.


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