Jump to content

Nato rift deepens over Iraq


Fractux
 Share

Recommended Posts

quote:

by WeeGee

Oh, but I do have to say you disgust me how you never can seem to keep a discussion going without sending your "your a damn bloody liberal and your going to end this country" bit to anybody who opposes you, its getting old.


READ the constitution, and then read your history, then come back and say that again with a straight face.

History repeats itself because no one listened the first time.

Learn from history or be doomed to repeat it.

You need to learn, and learn fast, just like a number of others on this board.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 81
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Jag you are a smart aware and patriotic man. Beleive it or not I do learn from you even though I rarely if ever agree with you. You have prompted me to actually read the Constitution and I have spent a considerable amount of time perusing the Rutherford Institute site and some links to constitutional law. However if you think you are ALWAYS right about issues discussed on this board you are the one who has something to learn. Smart and aware are not allknowing and omnicient.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:

posted by Race Bannon

However if you think you are ALWAYS right about issues discussed on this board you are the one who has something to learn. Smart and aware are not allknowing and omnicient.


I have never claimed to be always right, and sometimes I do change my mind, but only when convinced by someone that is more knowledgable of history and the constitution then I am.

There are not many of those types on this board.

Some of you have the idea that liberalism etc is constitutional, there are some of you who feel that life is unfair and it is the federal governments to make it fair.

No where in the constitution does it say that it is the fed's job to make life fair.

The general welfare clause has NOTHING to do with fairness, as a matter of fact most of the anti-federalists were scared to death of that phrase because they knew it would be perverted by people wishing for more power over the people.

The federal government is about 99% larger then it should be.

The new deal was unconstitutional, believe it or not, FDR forced it down the USSC's throat by threatening to change and add judges that saw things his way.

The executive branch is far too powerful, the senate is now placed by popular vote, and the judicial branch changes laws at a whim, whether they be constitutional or not. If a judge is an "activist" judge, he will change laws from the bench, NOT his job.

This government is OUT OF CONTROL as far as power is concerned and you guys have a cow when Bush actually does what the executive branch is supposed to do.

He has done everything within his constitutional restraints, it is amazing to watch, but you guys claim that he goes too far.

Clinton went too far, he used to sic the IRS on people that did not agree with him, he used the Whitehouse as a fundraising vehicle for the Democratic party, the man lied under oath, he used the oval office as his own private whorehouse, etc etc ad nauseum.

Yet you ***** about Bush because he may be going to war against a country, that when given the chance will do it's best to destroy us? When it has actually acquired a nuclear weapon will do it's best to blackmail and take over as much of the middle east as possible. Who kills and murders his citizens with impunity? You actually think that Bush is in this for the oil? I just cannot believe it, it is just unreal to me that people think like this.

When congress said he needed their permission, when he really didn't, he already had the OK that was passed during the Clinton administration, he went and got it anyway, when he was told that he needed a coalition and UN permission, when in fact that had already been done, again, during the Clinton administration, he went and got it anyway.

You people keep moving the goalposts, but if it ever happened to one of YOUR ideas, you'd have a cow.

Do you know that if we had truly constitutional Judges on the bench that ALL gun control laws would be ruled unconstitutional, that Social Security and Welfare would be considered unconstitutional, that medicare would be unconstitutional, that the NEA would be considered unconstitutional, the income tax would be considered unconstitutional, there are so many laws that would be booted, congress would have a fit, because their guaranteed reelections by buying the votes of their constituents would be gone, their power would be gone.

Lotharr and I want the same things believe it or not, but we want it in 2 different ways, I want it to come about in a constitutional way, he wants to destroy it and our country in the process he wants. The federal government is FAR too powerful, and needs to be brought back to it's constitutional limits. That is what Lotharr and I want, I believe, at it's most basic, his other ideas on fairness are patently silly and have failed whereever tried.

The stuff that he wants to bring about should be done at the state and local level, it would of course destroy that state and the locality it was tried in, but what the hey, it would be fun to watch.

Look at California, or Washington, or Oregon for that matter, each is in DEEP trouble, because they felt it was their jobs to somehow make life more fair. Did you know that 65-70% of your money goes towards taxes to the government in some way shape or form, be it a B&O tax, which gets passed to you, a gas tax, which of course gets passed to you, property taxes which even as a renter get passed on to you, inventory taxes which of course get passed on to you, etc, etc, ad nauseum.

Did you know that the American Revolution started because of 1/2% tax?

basically this is the bottom line in my beliefs, and of many other "conservatives".

The federal government is way beyond it's constitutional limits, it needs to be reigned in, and it's powerful congressman and lobbyists destroyed in the process, because they would be.

THe states and local governments need to control local and state issues, and if socialist experiments are wanted, then that is where they should occur, NOT at the federal level.

Business should be free to do business without overreaching regulation, which would allow them to be profitable and of course good to their employees, which normally will happen in an ethical climate, which the 90's were not.

If the majority of the tax burden was taken off of business and put onto workers instead, the business would be allowed to create more jobs at decent pay, they wouldn't have to run overseas in order to compete, they wouldn't become a behemoth Walmart that treats it's employees like dirt, and is proud of the fact that a full 33% of their employees are on some sort of government assistance.

We want the same things, we just want it in a totally different way, I have faith in the people, and believe that they will end up doing the right thing, you guys on the other hand think that people are basically bad and will do the worst thing possible unless controlled by big government. We'd end up with the same thing, but yours would fail, and mine would succeed.

History tells me this is so, and I listen to history, I don't want to have to learn the hard way. When someone else already went through it for me, why should I have to go through it again?

This has been rather rambling I am afraid, You want fair? You want the same opportunity as everyone else, you want to go as far as your talents and motivation will take you? Then you want what I want, and my way is the only REAL way of getting there with any type of long term success. Your way may last 50 years, MAX, but EVERYONE will be living at the same poverty level, my way ensures that everyone that wants to can and will succeed, and will be whatever they wish to be. But when the government can come in, take 60-70% of your money in taxes and you not even realize it, it's no wonder we get no further then the government allows us to, according to you anyway.

I will succeed despite the government. and to spite them as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I will say here, what I have said on another forum.

Bush has not only made the UN irrelavant, but he has also made NATO irrelavant as well.

The US needs to get out of both organizations and get together with countries that would pull their own weight. The US does MOST of the heavy lifting for both organizations, and it is time for that to change.

The US needs to get out of NATO and the UN and create a democtratic alliance with other democratic countries that share our values.

These would be some of them, Israel, Turkey, Britain, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, etc. There are a few others of course, but not many.

No EU countries if possible, let them handle their own defense, since they feel that NATO is theirs to do with as they wish, and they use it for political maneuvering, as they are doing now.

Yes, we need to get outof the UN and NATO and create a new organization that will take the best of both and create a SUPER democratic country defense pact and treaty organization. The petty despots, dictators and human rights violators should be shunned and overthrown if possible.

THe new organization would consist of those countries that take democracy seriously, it's treaties seriously, human rights seriously, and it's defense pacts seriously, and are willing and able to hold the load themselves without the US having to bear the brunt of it's defense, or the costs of such an organization.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You know the damndest thing is that we are the only country NATO has ever invoked it's "attack on one is an attack on all" policy?

I had always thought it would be Germany or Russia invoking it after China and North Korea start invading...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lots of stuff here....

It's time for NATO to kick out the U.S. They don't need the liability.

quote:

You actually think that Bush is in this for the oil? I just cannot believe it, it is just unreal to me that people think like this.


If you had any working knowledge of neocon philosophy, the personal economic history of the administration, or the obscenely corrupt and/or nepotistic appointments of federal positions you would change your mind. I bet you know the truth, but like most it would ultimately jeopardize your standard of living to acknowledge it....at the very least stop with all the Constitution thumping...even Hamilton and Smith would have loaded the muskets a long time ago.

We do want the same thing.

However, you refuse to admit or understand the nature of corporate infiltration on the democratic process. You call the Constitution dead while supporting the radical interpretations that have "enthroned" corporate preeminence on matters of self and state.

You further reject the notion that CONGRESS is to declare war...not pass the buck to the executive. This is just of the top of my head. You need to switch your party to straight Republican. Your notions of taking what (you think) is good while ignoring the bad, makes you just as hypocritical as the current administration and the corporate media propaganda on the nature of freedom and liberty.

Freedom is NOT being allowed to grow up in a ghetto, go to jail, get shot by the police, or end up on drugs (thatÔÇÖs hispanic, white, or black). Liberty is NOT being monitored by your government or having your vote competing against the devastating resources of anational corporations. At least Soviet bureaucracy could claim to be working for a country.

Yeah we want the same thing but I deal with the reality of the present and respect and learn from the past....all of the past...not just the nice parts.

quote:

I was not intending to sate that I agree with one, or both of these statements.


Got it.

quote:

From the anthropology classes I have taken, this is most definitely not true. Even in primitive societies, there are conflicts.

I wasn't claiming a utopia. I was pointing out the relative egalitarian and communal peace that is believed to have existed during the start of human society. Gross stratification didn't develop until after horticulture developments had allowed for an abundance of resources and a privileged class. The social scientists I have talked to acknowledge this idea as true and call as a reference the majority of isolated people who still live in this type of environment today like: Kaska Indians, Pygmies and Bushmen of Africa, Aborigines, and the Semai. So while Jag may have Hobbes I'll take Rousseau (except for his stance on women....Jag can have that if he wants)...he wants Hamilton I'll take Paine.

quote:

Excuse my ignorance in this matter if i am wrong.


Me too.

quote:

I get concerned when people try to turn the government into a public charity.


I get concerned when I pierce the finely crafted veneer of a sterilized media to find a sea of wage slaves and workers who have built, and now sustain, this nation being denied their fair share, and the political means of competing for it.

I get angry when my government is turned into a charity for pompous trust fund babies vis-├á-vis corporate welfare and tax breaks. These people who have known every economic advantage and the security it providesÔǪ..leasing our government, owning our media, and terrorizing the dispossessed through policy and propaganda.

Anyway if these issues are of further concern we should find a better thread. As for this thread, NATO should give us the boot until we can work and play nice with others. Just one opinionits not illegal yet.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was going to be mean and rather rude to Lotharr for some of his far out conspiracy BS, and then I thought better of it. Not his fault, just the atmosphere he grew up in.

Too bad, class warfare is a sad and destructive past time.

We ARE NATO, if we were kicked out or left, it would pretty much go to pieces, just as the UN would if we left, we pay around 75% of the bills for both. And apply about 90% of the military strength behind each one.

To say that we don't play nice with others is not only silly, it is again patently ridiculous.

Look at Japan and Germany now, compared to after WWII, we destroyed them, beat them to a pulp and then used our time and resources and MONEY to rebuild them. In the 70's, 80's and 90's they were economic powerhouses, BECAUSE of US!! They squandered it, and are now treading water, their economies are going to pieces, with no light at the end of the tunnel. Mexico was going down the tubes, we bailed them out.

If we were imperialistic, would we not have taken over those countries and made them states, ro perhaps just territories, like Puerto Rico, or the Virgin Islands or something.

You have NO clue what imperialism looks like, we are NOT EVEN CLOSE to imperialistic. We have not changed our borders in over 100 years, we have not expanded through military might, we do not destroy a country and then just take over. We destroy a country, Afghanistan being a sharp and recent example, help the people to rebuild and have a say in their government and then leave. Hopefully we have made a friend in the process, but if not, let them waste away by themselves.

France is this way now, if it weren't for us, they would be speaking German right now, if it weren't for us, Kuwait would still be under Iraqi occupation. It's citizens imprisoned and tortured and raped for Saddam's henchmans enjoyment.

THe US is still the greatest country in the world, we have helped bring more people out of slavery and bondage then ANY other country that has EVER existed.

Ronald Reagan freed more people, then any one man in history, when he destroyed the Soviet Union without firing a shot.

You are clueless Lotharr, and ignorant, and it shows, in big BOLD letters.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:

Originally posted by Lotharr:

Declaration of Hegemony

Bringing our country up to date


Lotharr, ur a man after my own heart

but Jag cant be blamed, hes just believes so strongly in America (and nothings wrong with that) he sometimes doesnt see the things as others see (or what he calls liberals)

my problem with him is he blows off everyones views if they differ from his. but i do respect what he has to say, he is an intelligent man

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:

but Jag cant be blamed, hes just believes so strongly in America (and nothings wrong with that) he sometimes doesnt see the things as others see (or what he calls liberals)


Well for him if an argument or belief doesn't meet certain patriotic parameters then your talking commie (insert many other ideas here). And that to me is un-American going on fascist...but hey when times get tough (for the status quo) the government (with business partners) will use its power to destroy dissent in *acceptable* un-constitutional way to protect "democracy". It's a hypocrisy that I find in a lot of so called patriots. Fault is something else. This country spends over a trillion dollars on propaganda and it is very good at what it does....because we are the best right? Even if we can't really point at anything substantial besides a bunch of rich people and a military that solves all arguments.

quote:

my problem with him is he blows off everyones views if they differ from his. but i do respect what he has to say, he is an intelligent man


Well that's what *true* Americans have to do in tough times....or all the time or whatever. I agree that he is very knowledgeable in many respects and at the same time lacking substantially in other areas. So am I...and so it goes.

Can anyone believe it....millions around the world united in peace.

"I'm proud to be here with these great American's...these patriots of peace here in NYC." Martian Sheen (sp?) also know as "the good president"

And the war hasn't even started....ahhh...the masses in their ignorance

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Remo Williams

quote:

Lotharr, ur a man after my own heart

Thats a good thing! I was hoping his distorted view of the world was an isolate case of dementia! Now I see it may be a contagious wide spread illness of the mind.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you for that vote of confidence Steve, but then again, I always have known that your political and critical thinking skills have been up to par.

It's too bad others on this board do not have those skills up to par as well. We can always hope that the lessons that they get from us will sink in and they will actually learn to think for themselves.

Hey, we can always hope, right?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Remo Williams

Hehe one man's garbage is another man's substance I suppose. It smells just like foxnews to me. Did you have your pen and paper out so you could buy a subscription. LOL! They have to make a profit some how to keep up that excellent news reporting.(sarcasm)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gee, so all I had to do was agree with right wing reactionary neanderthal points of view and I would get smarter? Who knew? I wish I knew that when I was taking my SAT's. That 1350 could have been a 1600 and I'd be sittin on easy street exploiting the working class and carpet bombing brown people.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Remo Williams

quote:

Originally posted by Race Bannon IV:

Gee, so all I had to do was agree with right wing reactionary neanderthal points of view and I would get smarter? Who knew? I wish I knew that when I was taking my SAT's. That 1350 could have been a 1600 and I'd be sittin on easy street exploiting the working class and carpet bombing brown people.

We gave up the practice of carpet bombing cities in WW2. Hey but when did a liberal actually care about facts. Its so much better to make up the truth than actually know it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:

Its so much better to make up the truth than actually know it.


For rightwing "truth" I refer you to the above comments on the relative nature of substance.

quote:

Hey but when did a liberal actually care about facts

That's right....trees really do cause pollution....isn't that so Mr. Regan

quote:

We gave up the practice of carpet bombing cities in WW2

Yeah we switched to "shock and awe"...it is a subtle change....

quote:

Gee, so all I had to do was agree with right wing reactionary neanderthal points of view and I would get smarter

Defiantly not...but you would get serious air time

quote:

carpet bombing brown people

Some people react poorly to realizing the majority of the electorate will soon be dominated by non-WASP undesirable types....poor repulicant's....

Anyway, at least a clear message has been sent that aggressive military action for obvious material gain will be met with real resistance and that NATO is not a total puppet.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
 Share


×
×
  • Create New...